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Posted: 3/13/2002 12:02:23 PM EDT
I am looking for 12ga ammo and .223 I really want effective rounds that are pretty cheap so I can stock up without breaking the bank. How about wolf .223 that stuff works real good in my gun, and for 12ga I was thinking of the S&B buck shot and slugs because of the price.

I also here people talk about he GI 5.56 round the tumbles and fragments would the south african ammo do this?
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 12:31:58 PM EDT
Wolf ammo sucks. Avoid at all costs.
South African is great. IMI is even better.

Avoid all S&B ammo; I've heard and read of way too many "ka-boom" stories relating to use of this ammo.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 12:36:00 PM EDT
Check out the ammo fac at the top of the ammunition forum.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 12:54:54 PM EDT
So why should I avoid the wolf?? Does anyone know if the wolf tumbles like the military ammo?
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 1:17:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2002 1:22:42 PM EDT by MrP]

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
So why should I avoid the wolf?? Does anyone know if the wolf tumbles like the military ammo?



Say it aint so Joe... er... uh... Greg. Spend some time at the Ammo board FAQ... You won't regret the experience.

IMO you only want current production milspec 5.56. There are some good choices for some not so bad money... Win Q3131, Q3131A, IMI M193 and Federal M193 come to mind.

www.ecis.com/~mraudio/AR15_Ammo_FAQ.htm

Edited to add link and to say "Make sure you check out Dr. Fackler's info as well".
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 1:24:07 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2002 1:30:37 PM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By 1911greg:
So why should I avoid the wolf?? Does anyone know if the wolf tumbles like the military ammo?



Wolf is fine for play. I feel it underperforms when it's important. I also don't like the experiences I've had with its terminal ballistics performance. I haven't shot it into Gel (yet) but it doesn't do to pumpkins what LC or Q3131a will.

I have nothing more substantial against Wolf. I've shot perhaps 2000 rounds of 5.56 Wolf through Bushmasters without any real problems.

That being said, why bother?

It's $0.04 more or so a round for 1000 rounds of good milspec ammo than for the less reliable, softer loaded, goo-coated Wolf. Plus, when the SHTF you're going to have zeroed to and be used to shooting Wolf if that's all you have been buying. Switching ammo from what you're used to is not a good idea once the SHTF.

Again, I've never had any real obvious problems with Wolf. Some failures to fire, but not many. That's fine for plinking ammo, or screwing around. That's about it. I have noticed that from round to round the "oomph" with which they are loaded seems to vary quite a bit sometimes.

Q3131a and new LC are both widely available rounds with top terminal performance and high quality control. Those I have seen Gel performance in. They tumble hard and fragment up to 80-90% without complaint above 2600-2700 FPS (that's out to about 150-200 yards in a 16"-20" barrel). I don't think either has given me any kind of malfunction- ever. While it may be fine to mess around with lesser ammo for smirks and chuckles, why would you ever depend on the cheapest ammo you could find for a SHTF situation? (Why would you depend on anything that wasn't

No. You want milspec, sealed, reliable ammo that stores for 10-15 years and goes "boom" the first time every time you pull the trigger. Pull an extra $50 from the cookie jar and buy 1000 rounds of LC'00 or LC'01 (Q3131a if you like prettier ammo). Then train with it. You'll probably notice the difference. That's why it's more expensive. If the cost really bothers you, save the brass. You might be able to resell it to someone if your rifle is kind to it. And really, if you are actually worried about SHTF you'll be glad you stuck with milspec. Otherwise? Who cares? Shoot anything that won't blow up your rifle. (i.e.: Avoid S&B).

Go look at www.ammoman.com

[edited cause I'm a dummy and to add ammoman]
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 1:30:06 PM EDT
Well if you have shot dozens and dozens of rounds of the wolf through your gun and its did fine then i guess you could go ahead but if you have shot only a little bit successfully then youve got ahold of some very BLESSED wolf ammo and should avoid it in the future. It depends upon the lot # but that stuff is generally crap. Ive heard unnumberable amounts of accounts from people reporting fouling, misfires, duds,jams and all sorts of other problems with it.

Go with the south african. your best bet is www.ammoman.com he has FREE shipping and the stuff gets delivered fast via UPS ground. (mine was shipped the 11th and delivered on the 13th!)

as for the 12 gauge im clueless as to what brand but check over at ammoman.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 1:33:28 PM EDT
WOLF SUCKS

If you value your AR, you won't use it.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 1:38:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2002 1:45:54 PM EDT by brouhaha]
OK, two things here:

1.) I absolutely agree with what Tatjana has said. You need to play and train with whatever ammo you'll be using in a SHTF scenario. I don't recommend Wolf for SHTF simply because of the problems that many people have...plus, why would you want to gum up the internals of your lifeline (AR) with all that laquer?

2.) I do NOT have any experience with Wolf in 5.56. However, I do have experience with it in .45 ACP (in a USP) and in 5.45 (in a SAR-2). The USP choked on it constantly. The laquer turned to glue in the chamber, and a cleaning rod was required to extract the round. I'm surprised an extractor was never borken. I had bought a case, but sold the remaining 700rnds or so very cheaply.

The AK, OTOH, performs flawlessly with the stuff. It was made to. I have almost 2k rounds with NO cleaning and NO hiccups.

That said, I would never use Wolf ammo for anything other than my AK...particularly in a SHTF situation. You don't save a whole bunch with the stuff, and what you do save doesn't make up for the cleaning nightmare and the possible extraction problems. Go with Q3131a or LC.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 4:47:55 PM EDT
For 12-gauge, I got what I thought was a nice deal from Miwall at a recent show. They were selling PMC (nine-pellet 00 buck) for $1.75 for a box of five. Of course that may have been a show special. Check them out at www.miwall.com. Good luck.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:21:48 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:28:35 PM EDT
i wont use wolf either
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 6:46:26 PM EDT
I agree with all of the above posts, and if you are going to stock some beer in that in the hole in case tshtfan please stock some beer that you know you are going to like to drink,not just the cheapest you can buy! As for 12gau they are like AKS (unless semi-auto) they don'y care what they gobble up, and S&B make some very good see through plastic large buck-shells. a little costly but then how much is your piece of mind worth?
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 7:24:25 PM EDT
I agree with almost all of the comments thus far...

Wolf is great for an AK/SKS (I have used tons of it with no problems to speak of), but you don't wan't all of that laquer heating up and bonding to your AR. The AR has much tighter tolerences than any AK/SKS.

The comment that I don't agree with came from Sitting Bull regarding S&B..I don't know where he got his facts from, but I have shot THOUSANDS & THOUSANDS of rounds of S&B in many different calibers and NEVER had a malfunction of any kind. I really would like to be informed of these Ka-booms that he spoke of from actual fact.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 8:00:19 PM EDT
JH225 i agree with you on this , i use S&B .357 mag in my desert eagle in fact MRI sugests you use it? I personally have not had any trouble with it in my,cz52,1911,in fact none of my guns have ever gone KABOOM. Maybe its a mantinence issue instead of an ammo issue! What about it sitting bull, some guy posted he saw a guy at a gun range useing 40 cal ammo in a 45, well i can tell you if you put a nine mm shell case and all in my 10mm it will slide right through the barrel , a forty will do the same in the barrel of a 45! so is this a real case of factual ,or just something you heard! I have my flame suit on bt the way. bob cole
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 8:19:06 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 8:56:12 PM EDT
Damn thats enough to make me stop buying it! I quit driving while drinking before i ever got a DWI and Having that big wreck and i can do the same with S&B and secound hand smoke, I allways thought that with my desert eagle it would take a brg round to move that 4and1/2 pound of steel balistic, now have secound thoughts better safe than sorry! Hell ain't none of my guns cheap why blow them up with(anything but cheap)S&B.. I like my hakim 8mm with 1937 8mm surplus ammo, am saving my newer 1945 ammo for WTSHTF...Got a MG-13 25rnd mag for my hakim so sweet! My friends son shot the 7.92(8mm) hawkim one time and backed away(if you set the gas tube all the way open you get max gas operation but a lot of the gas blows into the air over your head) not ever knowing what a cheek and thumb weld are he had his head way up and the gas lifted his hair straight up in the air.. scared the hell out of him... refused to shoot it again but couldn't pry him off of the rem 700 7mm rem mag which has twice the felt recoil and twice the BOOM as the 8mm go fiqure!! No more S&B for me .... Thanks.... bob cole
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 9:09:03 PM EDT
Hey Sitting bull no need to chew my ass out have had my knees thouroughly wounded! bob cole
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 9:24:05 PM EDT
If you are going to have that much ammo and store it on a stripper clip.

DO NOT USE WOLF!!!

You will not be able to load the mags from the stripper clips. Steel on Steel
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 9:35:15 PM EDT
Someone tell me where I can signup to do Wolf commercials, cause I absolutely love the stuff. I have used it in just about every caliber, and never had one problem with it. My AR's think it's candy! The price also can't be beat.

As for S&B ammo, I have heard Kaboom stories on just about every gun board I visit. S&B will never enter a chamber on a gun I own or shoot. They have some serious problems!
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 7:07:20 AM EDT
You know, I didn't just parachute in.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 10:47:27 AM EDT
Here's the deal with SHTF ammo. If you are not concerned with overpenetration, by all means go with Lake City 00 OR 01 ammo. The latest batches may have all of it's power remaining where older ammo could, I repeat could have some minor loss in velocity. Q3131A is some very good M193 type ammo. Both of these ammo types are mil-spec and will perform very well fragmenting in the 2600-2700 fps range and above. The mil-spec ammo is also loaded a bit hotter than any commercial loads and this will mean that the ammo will extend the range in which the bullet can fragment. The problem with S&B, and the Russian cheapo crap is bullet design and velocity. The S&B has a very thick jacket and it will not allow the bullet to break at the cannelure which is necessary for fragmentation to occur. Most of the Russian stuff suffers from the same problem, plus it don't have the power that M193 spec ammo has. So there is no way it can have the same performance. This ammo is at best paper punching ammo, but I wouldn't even use it for that. I'll not even get started on what laquered ammo can do to an AR chamber. Stay away from the Russian crap unless you are buying it for an AK or SKS. It will work fine in those.
As far as buckshot, there are many choices. The S&B may be ok in shotshell ammo. I think most of the kaboom problems is associated with centerfire ammo. But there are other cheap choices out there. Someone mentioned PMC which can be bought for about $1.99 per 5 most places. I have never fired any of it, but I'm sure it is probably good stuff. The 9 pellet load has an advertised velocity of 1325 FPS, plenty hot enough. I usually use Federal Premium or Federal Classic 00 Buck in my home defense shotgun, but I have a few boxes of the PMC here if needed. Estate Cartridge in TX also makes some cheaper buckshot and it can be had in both high velocity and low recoil rounds. Some reduced recoil buck might not be bad to have around if you have to fire several full power loads. The full power stuff gets pretty rough on the shoulder after a while. And as far as slugs go, I'm not too big on them. Anything a slug can do a rifle can do better. More accurate, more range, etc. Slugs do leave a big hole in what they hit though. Only use them if you have rifle sights on your shotgun, otherwise accuracy will suffer. The good thing about shotgun ammo is that you won't need as much of it as rifle ammo. Get a good supply, but don't go overboard. I would say for every 1000 rds of .223 you buy, 200 rds of buck will be a plenty. Same for pistol ammo. The rifle will most likely be used more. The others are just for closer ranges. And, if you can find the buckshot in 25 rd. boxes you may be able to save several dollars over buying the 5 rd boxes. Hope this has been helpful.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:03:41 AM EDT
Ok for the 12ga your going to have to spend a lot if your going to want Buckshot I have 500rd of 7.5 bird shot for my shotgun I also have about 50rd of slug and 300rd of buckshot most of it is Estate TAC buckshot.

Now you can go for cheaper S&B buckshot but the stuff does a duzzy on your shoulder. I got my Estate from Nathez (I don't know if I spelled that right) But this buckshot is the best low recoil star crimped for tighter groups. I got all my 7.5 at Wal-mart I just got two of the 250 boxes they had it cost me I thing a little more then $50 for it all but this was back in 1999.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 11:51:20 AM EDT
I also forgot to comment on the South African .223 ammo. I would rather have this for SHTF ammo than Wolf. It is a military cartridge and is a pretty good copy of USGI M193. The only negative thing about it is the fact that most of it is 15-20 years old. If the stuff was stored properly, it will probably be ok, but remember when you are buying ammo that you will most likely want to store it for a number of years. The South African stuff being as old as it is already would greatly reduce the storage life of your ammo. So with all of this in mind, I would rather have 500 rds. of Lake City, Federal or Winchester Q3131A than 1000 rds. of the Wolf, S&B, Barnaul or other such ammo. My next choice would probably be the South African stuff. Be sure that you buy the kind in the battle packs though, not the commercial stuff. Try several random samples of the SA before relying on it too much though.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:05:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Charging_Handle:
If the stuff was stored properly, it will probably be ok, but remember when you are buying ammo that you will most likely want to store it for a number of years. The South African stuff being as old as it is already would greatly reduce the storage life of your ammo.



My AR was pretty happy with the SA (Dinel?) surplus ammo, but was able to shoot the SA (PMP) commercial (presumably "new") into groups about half the size.

Now, frankly, at short combat ranges its irrelevant, and even the older surplus was minute of helmet at 100 yrds. But what the heck, if you can afford to buy ammo and have it sit, you can afford to buy new stuff, and keep it fresh by cycling the stock. Right?
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:46:16 PM EDT
Wolf ammo. I have shot a 1000 rounds of this stuff. I had one misfire, the rest worked. With my 20" scoped AR, I could keep 1.75" to 2" groups with it at 100 yards. This is good enough for what I shoot at. One day I loaded up 8 30 rounds mags and fired them in rapid succession. I used a 10.5"/5.5" upper. I turned the gas tube purple and started to melt part of the handguard. There was nothing in the chamber. I still have not cleaned that rifle. I did this test last fall, and have fired an additional 250 rounds of Q3131a through it, and I have had zero issues with the rifle.

As for cost, Wolf can be bought at gun shows for as little as $95 a case, while Q3131a will cost you $189.

Wolf is fine for appliance and computer killing, but I would not use it if my life depended on it. Wolf does have its place.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 12:55:41 PM EDT
I've used Russian "Barnaul" 62 grain .223 for several years.

I took 1500 rounds to the Thunder Ranch "Urban Rifle" course and had 1 misfire!

There were many misfires from the other guys Winchester & Federal ammo.

Don't believe all you hear about Russian ammo being bad, it works for me. Buy some and try it. If it doesn't work in your rifle, your not out that much $$$$$.

At 11 to 13 cents a round, it's hard to beat.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:08:14 PM EDT
Why does everyone want FMJ bullets for SHTF? The military uses it becuase they have to, but why should we limit ourselves this way? I think its a better idea to stockpile softpoints or expanding hollowpoints for SHTF. Of course have some FMJ for shooting at targets behind cover and some SS109 stuff for targets behind heavier cover. A 70/30 or even 60/40 ratio of expanding bullets to FMJ sounds good to me.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:14:43 PM EDT
Wolf in my opinion ain't too great. It's cheap, but not overly so, great for AK's, not great in my experience for AR's, at least not mine. Do a forum search for Sportsmans Guide, there is a thread detailing the cheapest way to order the SA 5.56 for something like 289.00 for 2700 round tubs. Sorry, if someone else has said this already, I haven't read through all the posts.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:15:58 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Why does everyone want FMJ bullets for SHTF?



PENETRATION.

When the S hits the F and you need to kill someone, you may have to shoot them while they are behind cover.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:25:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ECS:

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Why does everyone want FMJ bullets for SHTF?



PENETRATION.

When the S hits the F and you need to kill someone, you may have to shoot them while they are behind cover.



I realize this but alot of guys are seem overly concerned with if FMJ bullets will fragment and out to what range will they do so. Why not use expanding bullets and solve this problem ? Also, I suggested having FMJ and SS109 bullets in your cache as well.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 1:41:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:

I realize this but alot of guys are seem overly concerned with if FMJ bullets will fragment and out to what range will they do so. Why not use expanding bullets and solve this problem ? Also, I suggested having FMJ and SS109 bullets in your cache as well.



Different strokes for different folks. I'm a fan of bullet penetration. I'm speaking in general now, no particular caliber. I want the ability to shoot thru cover - walls, doors, windshields if needed. Remember you said SHTF, its kill or be killed.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 2:00:32 PM EDT
PhillyMan - The scenario you paint will be as follows: a bunch of no-good-nicks drive up toward your place shooting. You happen to have HP in your rifle, so you remove the magazine of HP that's in the gun, whip out your clip of FMJ, eject the HP round in the gun, and load with FMJ and commence firing at the car. The car rolls to a stop, the perps jump out and are running toward cover shooting at you. You then realizing that you're loaded with FMJ quickly eject the FMJ mag, and replace it with a HP mag, ejecting the chambered FMJ round and replacing it with a HP round. By the time you've got all that done, you're about to start shooting at the dudes, but your realize that they've run to cover now. They've turned a picnic table on it's side and are shooting at you from behind it. You, realizing that you've got HP in your gun now, grab what you think is a FMJ mag, put it in your gun, eject the HP round and replace it........................ You get the drift.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 2:55:33 PM EDT
My reason for wanting FMJ is simple. In my opinion, the mil-spec ammo loaded with M193 bullets are more effective than hollow points or JHP. The M193 wasn't designed with the purpose of fragmenting in mind, yet it was just luck that it turned out that way. The reason I say it is more effective is the simple fact that it will penetrate deeper than most hollow points in tissue before fragmenting. Most .223 hollow points are designed to "blow up" when they strike flesh because they were made with varmint hunting in mind. Thus, they may expand violently on impact but not penetrate deep enough to cause immediate incapacitation and fatal wounds. Soft points offer a better chance of deeper penetration, but even when fully expanded, a .223 diameter bullet is still small. A deep penetrating, fragmenting bullet is IMHO a better choice. Plus, they offer much better penetration on cover. The JHP's are used by police agencies for that reason. If they miss their target with these rounds there is much less chance of overpenetration. M193 just offers the most versatility. Plus, you can buy a lot more of it than you can most hollow point loads. And they are not any better in my opinion. Check some of the info sites and FAQ's about .223 wounds and you'll see what I'm talking about. Those mil-spec bullets will penetrate about 3-4 inches, yaw and nose over. Then the bullet breaks into two seperate pieces at the cannelure. Sometimes the front portion will then split into two pieces and the base will fragment into many jagged pieces. And they keep traveling creating one helluva wound channel. I'm not sure how commercial .223 performs (like Federal American Eagle, PMC, UMC, etc.)but I have seen no proof that it will perform the same way. Until I do it will remain paper punching ammo. Now granted, a hollow point like Federal Premium 55 gr. HP will penetrate plenty deep enough to kill at closer ranges of home defense, but at 100 yds + I don't know. What works on chucks and chipmunks may not work worth a squat on two legged varmints. That's my .2 cents worth. To each his own.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:19:37 PM EDT
Sittingbull, I'm not suggesting changing ammo types like you mention in you senario.

I'm just throwing the idea out there that maybe all having FMJ ammo only is not the way to go. Just becuase the military has to use it doesn't mean that we shouldn't consider other types of bullets. Softpoint 223 ammo (I'm wasn't talking about varmint ammo) should have no problem going through stuff like car doors and windows.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 3:54:48 PM EDT
I like wolf ammo only in my SAR-1 AK clones. The federal ammo in handguns and longguns works well for me. I usually stock a few hundred rounds of hydrashock and a case of blazer or winchester white box for plinking, but it would be ok in a serious situation as well. The FMJ rifle ammo is my choice for shtf ammo, but some softpoint would be acceptable as well. I personally stay away from surplus and reloaded and cheap cheap ammo as I value my weapons and want to be able to rely on what I have for a long time.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:50:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 6:57:17 PM EDT by tatjana]

Originally Posted By TUMOR:
I've used Russian "Barnaul" 62 grain .223 for several years.

I took 1500 rounds to the Thunder Ranch "Urban Rifle" course and had 1 misfire!

Don't believe all you hear about Russian ammo being bad, it works for me. Buy some and try it. If it doesn't work in your rifle, your not out that much $$$$$.

At 11 to 13 cents a round, it's hard to beat.



Regardless, I am not impressed with the terminal ballistics of S&B, Wolf, or Barnaul. Particularly Barnaul. It may preform well on paper targets but it does NOT clock as fast and it will not fragment because the jackets are not constructed with the right thickness.

Wolf is the only Russian ammo I have not seen in Gel. The others are glorified .22LR. Period. I wouldn't train with them either. Bad habits form easily.

By all means, try it if you wish, but try it in ballistic gel and with a chrono and compare it the same day side by side with 55gr milspec ammo like Q3131a, LC'00 or LC'01.

Remember, we are talking about SHTF ammo, you'll be out a lot more than a few bucks if it fails to work in your weapon when the time comes.

Philadelphia_GunMan asks:


Why does everyone want FMJ bullets for SHTF? The military uses it becuase they have to, but why should we limit ourselves this way? I think its a better idea to stockpile softpoints or expanding hollowpoints for SHTF. Of course have some FMJ for shooting at targets behind cover and some SS109 stuff for targets behind heavier cover. A 70/30 or even 60/40 ratio of expanding bullets to FMJ sounds good to me.


I would suggest you take a look at the results of JSP, JHP and FMJ milspec 5.56 ammo when tested in ballistic gel. JSP and JHP just don't hold a candle to the wound devastation of milspec FMJ. Period. Look around. www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/M193.jpg is a good picture of a classic M193 profile performance in gel.

Compare to JSP:

www.firearmstactical.com/images/Wound%20Profiles/223%20Remington%2050gr%20JSP.jpg

FMJ has a better penetration of cover, leaves a larger wound, more temporary cavity and all this at 100fps less velocity.

While JSP or JHP might expand, FMJ explodes. Almost literally.

Also, contrary to what seems to be an urban myth on this board, SS109/M855 does not defeat cover substantially better than M193 until 200 meters or so. Inside of that range M193 has better penetration through cover because of its velocity. SS109/M855 is designed to increase penetration at LOW velocity, which really doesn't start to make a difference until 200 to 300 meters. If you are planning engagements with vehicles over 100 yards, well:

A) You better be an amazing shot.
B) You should be using 7.62 under optics.

Charging_Handle comments:


Those mil-spec bullets will penetrate about 3-4 inches, yaw and nose over.


Actually, it's more like 4-5 inches, but I'm nitpicking.
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 6:51:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/14/2002 6:59:49 PM EDT by tatjana]
ECS commented:


Different strokes for different folks. I'm a fan of bullet penetration. I'm speaking in general now, no particular caliber. I want the ability to shoot thru cover - walls, doors, windshields if needed. Remember you said SHTF, its kill or be killed.


You might be surprised at the LACK of penetration for any 5.56 at high velocity. Even FMJ will break up after striking drywall with enough velocity. If the target is right behind light cover, you're going to do damage, if not... you probably aren't going to get the impact you want.

Consider this report by Robert Taubert:


Several interesting but inconclusive articles examining the feasibility of the .223 caliber or 5.56x45mm round, for COB events, such as hostage rescue and narcotics raids, have recently been featured in a variety of firearms and police publications. However, for more than twenty years, conventional law enforcement wisdom generally held that the 223 in any configuration was a deeply penetrating round and, therefore, totally unsuited for CQB missions in the urban environment Partly because of this erroneous, but long held perception, and other tactical factors, the pistol caliber submachine gun (SMG) eventually emerged as the primary shoulder "entry" weapon for police and military SWAT teams.

[...]

If an operator misses the intended target the 223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicate that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tend to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The 223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments.




Philadelphia_GunMan comments:


Softpoint 223 ammo (I'm wasn't talking about varmint ammo) should have no problem going through stuff like car doors and windows.


Not in my experience, and not according to this article, which cites the FBI tests in indicating:


Vehicle Interaction

With the exception of the full metal case (FMJ) and 69-grain rounds, it appears inadvisable to select lighter weight, soft and hollow point versions of this caliber when automobiles are likely to be engaged during planned raids and arrests. Penetration against automobile windshield safety glass is generally very poor and is only slightly better on sheet steel.



Defeating medium to heavy cover is a job for 7.62. I wouldn't be making 5.56 ammo selections based on defeating cover as a requirement and if I were it would be FMJ only.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:26:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By tatjana:
ECS commented:


Different strokes for different folks. I'm a fan of bullet penetration. I'm speaking in general now, no particular caliber. I want the ability to shoot thru cover - walls, doors, windshields if needed. Remember you said SHTF, its kill or be killed.


You might be surprised at the LACK of penetration for any 5.56 at high velocity. Even FMJ will break up after striking drywall with enough velocity. If the target is right behind light cover, you're going to do damage, if not... you probably aren't going to get the impact you want.

Consider this report by Robert Taubert:


Several interesting but inconclusive articles examining the feasibility of the .223 caliber or 5.56x45mm round, for COB events, such as hostage rescue and narcotics raids, have recently been featured in a variety of firearms and police publications. However, for more than twenty years, conventional law enforcement wisdom generally held that the 223 in any configuration was a deeply penetrating round and, therefore, totally unsuited for CQB missions in the urban environment Partly because of this erroneous, but long held perception, and other tactical factors, the pistol caliber submachine gun (SMG) eventually emerged as the primary shoulder "entry" weapon for police and military SWAT teams.

[...]

If an operator misses the intended target the 223 will generally have less wounding potential than some pistol rounds after passing through a wall or similar structure. The close range penetration tests conducted indicate that high velocity .223 rounds were initially unstable and may, depending on their construction, disintegrate when they strike an object that offers some resistance. When concrete, brick or macadam are struck at an angle at close range, .223 rounds tend to fragment or break up, and ricochets are generally less hazardous. The 223 could consequently be considered safer for urban street engagements, because of its inherent frangibility within the cross-compartments created by street environments.




Philadelphia_GunMan comments:


Softpoint 223 ammo (I'm wasn't talking about varmint ammo) should have no problem going through stuff like car doors and windows.


Not in my experience, and not according to this article, which cites the FBI tests in indicating:


Vehicle Interaction

With the exception of the full metal case (FMJ) and 69-grain rounds, it appears inadvisable to select lighter weight, soft and hollow point versions of this caliber when automobiles are likely to be engaged during planned raids and arrests. Penetration against automobile windshield safety glass is generally very poor and is only slightly better on sheet steel.



Defeating medium to heavy cover is a job for 7.62. I wouldn't be making 5.56 ammo selections based on defeating cover as a requirement and if I were it would be FMJ only.



I agree a 30 caliber round would be better..
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:43:06 AM EDT
PhillyMan, a softpoint penetrating car doors, hmmmmmmmmm, I know of some junker cars; I'm gonna go out this weekend and try it. However these cars are from the 60's and 70's so their door composition may or may not reflect current manufacture. I'll let you know what the results are.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:21:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/15/2002 6:24:31 AM EDT by Philadelphia_GunMan]
Sitting Bull, let us know the results of your test. Cars in 60's and 70's had thicker metal then any of todays cars so if it can get thru one of those junkers it'll have no problem getting thru today's cars. I don't see why softpoint 223 wouldn't go thru a car door. If hollow tip handgun bullets can penetrate car doors at 1000 fps then bullets traveling at around 3000 fps should have no problem. Yes I read what Tatjana posted, but I still don't believe that softpoints are not gonna penetrate a car door.

Link Posted: 3/15/2002 6:33:49 AM EDT
If you're convinced that the S will eventually HTF, then buy whatever you want and make sure it works in your weapon. Whether it penetrates or fragments isn't going to really be much of an issue. If you can hit what you're aiming at, any .223 will do the job. If you are convinced you need more firepower, try to find an old used "sea whiz" and if you do, you can be sure that picnic tables and car doors aren't going to be much of a problem. Personally, I think the S has already HTF and I'm wondering if we're all just a bunch of morons rearranging chairs on a ship that's going down. The way this country has been managed since 1992 boggles the mind. For a minute there, I was naive enough to think that GW might make a difference, but my instincts seem to be right. He's just another politician unwilling to do what is necessary and his half measures are doing nothing more than buying some time....for our enemies. At least...that's the way I see it.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 8:45:21 AM EDT
Gee there must be some ganster lurkers out there who already know all about how bullets penetrate (or not) thru autos?

Drive by shootings and all?

Link Posted: 3/15/2002 10:21:17 AM EDT
To re-hash what AmericanPie said, look at the TV show "combat missions". Why do you think the SWAT guys, who are outta shape, are doing so well. I think that it's because they're better shot then anyone else. They're used to carefully placed precision shots. The military guys are not as precise; for whatever reason. So the take-home point is that hitting precisely what you aim at is THE single most important thing to be able to do. You hit your target precisely with FMJ/HP/JHP/SP whatever, you're gonna be well on the road to accomplishing what you're intending to accomplish.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:13:18 PM EDT
I think just about any 223 will do and if you have ever shot a 22 and a 223 you can tell they are very different!
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:33:42 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Sitting Bull, let us know the results of your test. Cars in 60's and 70's had thicker metal then any of todays cars so if it can get thru one of those junkers it'll have no problem getting thru today's cars. I don't see why softpoint 223 wouldn't go thru a car door. If hollow tip handgun bullets can penetrate car doors at 1000 fps then bullets traveling at around 3000 fps should have no problem. Yes I read what Tatjana posted, but I still don't believe that softpoints are not gonna penetrate a car door.




They'll punch a hole just fine. That's not the issue. The issue is how much trauma they will cause AFTER they punch a hole through two layers of sheet and plastics.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:41:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By tatjana:

Originally Posted By Philadelphia_GunMan:
Sitting Bull, let us know the results of your test. Cars in 60's and 70's had thicker metal then any of todays cars so if it can get thru one of those junkers it'll have no problem getting thru today's cars. I don't see why softpoint 223 wouldn't go thru a car door. If hollow tip handgun bullets can penetrate car doors at 1000 fps then bullets traveling at around 3000 fps should have no problem. Yes I read what Tatjana posted, but I still don't believe that softpoints are not gonna penetrate a car door.




They'll punch a hole just fine. That's not the issue. The issue is how much trauma they will cause AFTER they punch a hole through two layers of sheet and plastics.



After it goes thru the metal and plastic the bullet is still gonna do a hell of alot of damage to human tissue. I don't get it, do you think that after a bullet goes thru a car door that its only gonna hit you with the force of a pellet gun ? If it hits the door at 3000 fps it is still gonna be going at LEAST 1000 fps when it hits someone behind the door and that is gonna take them out of any fight.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 1:53:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ECS:
Gee there must be some ganster lurkers out there who already know all about how bullets penetrate (or not) thru autos?

Drive by shootings and all?




My brother and I have done tests with Q3131a through:

1. The door panel of an 1998 Oldsmobile Intrigue.

2. Two pieces of front side auto glass from the same vehicle.

3. The front windscreen from the same vehicle.

The rifle used was a 20" AR, but I can't remember if it was Colt or Bushmaster or what the barrel twist was.

We didn't have ballistic gel so we used waterfilled pumpkins and honeydew melons for wounding testing. (Not very scientific I admit).

We shot one side window at 90 degrees, one at 45 degrees (modeled after FBI shoots).

We did the same with the car door.

The windscreen was shot at an angle approximating a front on shot to the vehicle. (i.e. slanted up)

Every hit on the door we tried to place at least 10cm from any holes we had made.

Range was 10 meters or so.

The results were interesting. If the melon or pumpkin were inside of a meter from the door or window, you'd do some damage. Really, the result looked like what you might expect from Glasser safety slugs after they impacted with a medium surface. No problem penetrating the car door (except in two instances when the rounds impacted the window control switching) and no problem if the melon was where the driver would be (less than 3 feet from the point of impact) but get much farther than that and you would get surface wounds and not a lot more. This was particularly true of the auto glass shots which were less than effective unless the melon was within a foot or so of the auto glass.

The windscreen pretty much eliminated anything other than a minor fleshwound. Any headshot with a round through the windscreen would probably be incapicating because of the "shotgun" like effect of the glass and fragments, but only to someone looking right into the bullet impact point.

All and all I would call the performance of FMJ milspec rounds through these car parts (with admittedly unscientific testing parameters) "marginal." Softpoint or hollow point are just not going to cut it.

Between my superunoffical results and the FBIs very official tests, what more persuasion do people need?

This is a SHTF scenerio folks. I personally think it's irresponsible to give advice in such circumstances based on just your opinion or what you remember from watching "HEAT" last night if you haven't done testing yourself. (Mind you, HEAT is one of my favorite movies).

I'm aware of some much more detailed tests in the works that I'll share with the board when they are complete.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 4:01:14 PM EDT
I am going to try to keep my answer simple. I buy Wolf and shoot it for plinking and just having fun. I use the money I save by using this stuff to buy brass cased ammo to sit on. I have thousands of rounds of wolf shot through my AR's, AK's, and Glocks (9, and .40) with no troubles at all.

I buy all my shotgun ammo when it is on sale. Usually around hunting season. I like haveing a mixture of shot sizes and manufacturer doesn't matter as much to me. I do stick to the big 3 Remingtion, Federal, and Winchester though.
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 4:53:50 PM EDT
Umm...Am I the only one with a forbidden love for Tatjana?...Hey, she's not Troy, is she?....Doesn't matter, doesn't matter, lol...
Link Posted: 3/15/2002 5:40:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Buddha:
Umm...Am I the only one with a forbidden love for Tatjana?...Hey, she's not Troy, is she?....Doesn't matter, doesn't matter, lol...



No
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