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Posted: 3/11/2002 6:00:05 PM EDT
I know that I should probably buy a 20" Bushmaster AR, but I have some kind of fascination with the M4 type carbines. I love the way they look and how light they are. I had pretty much made up my mind that I was going with a Bushy M4 until this evening when I came across a pic of Rock River Arms M4A3. It actually looked more M4'ish than the Bushy with the thicker handguards and a better looking brake (more like the A2 style). Of course I want something that is going to give me dependable function, so looks aren't the only thing. Which is simply the better gun as far as reliability is concerned? Thanks.
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 6:13:00 PM EDT
Reliability? I'd have to say bushmaster. Chrome lined NATO spec chamber is going to be the most reliable.

That being said, many people here bought the AR15.com LEGP which was a RRA M4gery, and I have heard nothing but praise for it's function thus far.

You can add M4 guards to a Bushy.

However, the fauz flash hider on the RRA is that shiznit. I almost got one just because they do look so much better.
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 6:55:14 PM EDT
Where are you seeing this pic of the RRA M4? The ones on their website don't have any muzzle breaks. Are you talking about getting a LE/Mil. M4??? I'm in the process of getting a Bushmaster M4 right now. You have me curious on the RRA though. Later
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 7:18:34 PM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
Reliability? I'd have to say bushmaster. Chrome lined NATO spec chamber is going to be the most reliable......



Bushmaster is the champ. So far, I have 2500+ rounds thru my Bushy M4A3 and have not had a single problem - NOT ONE!! The Y-Comp muzzle brake does not look like the A2 flash hider, but it does wonders for muzzle climb compensation. All the guys that shoot with me love it too. Follow up shots are incredibly quick and, if you do your part extremely accurate.

DK

I personally will never own anything but a Bushmaster again!! Just my $0.02 worth.....
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 7:19:13 PM EDT
Brian,

No it isn't an LEO or Mil rifle at all. It has the tele-style stock (fixed position) and an A2 style muzzlebreak or a fake flash hider, one of the two, can't really tell by looking at the pic. You can check it out here: http://www.gunsmoke-inc.com/#

Tell me that isn't a sweet looking thing! And not priced too badly either. Pretty much the same as the Bushy M4 when you factor in having to buy the carry handle. Unless you plan to go with some type of optics system. I just wonder based on a response above, if these guns can handle mil-spec ammo? I would not want one if they can't. I know the Bushy can so that may help me with the final decision.
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 10:01:19 PM EDT
The main difference I notice between the Rock River M4 and the Bushmaster M4 is that the Bushy has the M4 stepdown barrel (like the real M4 - for mounting the M203 grenade launcher), while the RRA has a straight barrel. I recently bought the Bushmaster M4A3 because I love the M4 look so much, and I ordered Colt M4 handguards and IT IS SWEET!! My advice - choose the Bushmaster! You can always order the A2 style muzzle break from www.kurtskustomfirearms.citymax.com later if you wish, but the Y Comp is badass. Later...
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 10:23:35 PM EDT
knights sr15 m4 the best money can buy if you van find one that is. there were only around 800 made.
Link Posted: 3/11/2002 11:16:43 PM EDT
this is what i'd get:

Colt's M4 Carbine is a more compact, four-position buttstock version of the M16A2 weapons system.


Model
RO977
Name
M4 Carbine
Finish
Black anodized receiver; black oxide barrel
Action
Safe/Semi/Auto, gas operated
Caliber
5.56mm (.223 Rem)
Capacity
30 rounds
Barrel Length
14.5" with Step Cut*
Overall Length
29.8"" to 33"
Rifling Twist
RH; 1 turn in 7"
Rifling Grooves
6
Trigger
Smooth
Front Sight
Adjustable
Rear Sight
Detachable carry handle with integrated M16A2 target style sight adjustable for windage/elevation to 600 meters.
Sight Radius
14.5"
Weight
5.65 lbs.(empty)
Cycle Rate
700-950 rpm
Special Features
Optional flat top receiver allows for removable carry handle with built in target-style rear sights, and easy mounting of optics. Cartidge case deflector for left handed shooting. Cleaning kit and sling included. Can be field stripped without special tools.

HUNTER FROM ARGENTINA
OUT.
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 2:51:40 AM EDT
I would suggest you consider the rifle I described here:Here is my suggestion for a modestly priced AR that maximizes on the cool factor.

You bolt action guys look away now :--)

1. Semi-striped Rock River or Bushmaster post-ban lower with a two stage trigger and no butt stock or pistol grip. Estimated cost: $250.00

2. Pre-ban Rock River A4 flat top upper with a chrome bore/chamber, 16" M4 barrel, Colt M4 fat handguards, side swivel sling mount. Estimated cost: $550.00

3. Ace tubular stock set. Estimated cost: $85.00

4. Install an EGW brake in lieu of flash suppressor and mill off the bayonette lug. Estimated cost $75.00.

5. Ergo pistol grip. Estimated cost $40.00

6. EO Tech Halo Sight Model 551/552. Estimated cost $350.00

7. ARMS #40 back up sight. Estimated cost $125.00

Enjoy

Gary



Link Posted: 3/12/2002 4:16:08 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2002 4:19:40 AM EDT by CounterStrike]
I am still relatively new to ARs so I don't offer this as an expert opinion but rather an observation. I bought last years LEGP which is basically RRA's post ban M4 knock off. It has the step down barrel and the pressed on fake flash hider. The rifle looks great, has yet to fail in any way (only maybe 500 rounds so far), and is likely going to be cheaper than the Bushmaster.

However, Bushmaster is a proven commodity. They have certainly demonstrated themselves to be reliable and the chrome lined chamber and bore is just starting to become available from RRA. Just yesterday I was playing with a brand new Bushmaster M4 at my dealers and here is what I thought: the finish is not quite as nice as my RRA, the muzzle break is ugly (in my opinion), and the CAR hand guards seem so small and strange after getting used to the fat M4 handguards. Notice all my complaints are merely aesthetics, and to many people secondary to the functionality that comes with the name. Besides you can always toss on new M4 handguards for less than $40.

The big thing that disappointed me about the Bushmaster was that the lower and upper receivers weren't the same shade. You might expect that from a gun you piece together yourself but not from a brand new rifle. With a tag at my local dealer of $900, the Bushmaster was quite a bit more expensive then the RRA.

I have only heard praise for RRA and I know I am happy with mine but they still have to pass the test of time before they can get a reputation like Bushmaster. In the end I think either way you go you will be fine. If you tend to put more stock in appearance go RRA, if you want the more proven name go Bushmaster.
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 4:39:58 AM EDT
Well, I was in a similar position to you as well. Got the M4 bug the moment I popped on to this site and saw someone posting their pics of a bowflage-camo'd M4. I hemmed and hawed, and ended up ordering a Bushy. Personally, I thought the Y-comp looked crappy, so I specified a straight 16" M4 profile barrel. I'm gonna snag some Colt M4 handguards and slap 'em on there. Probably gonna cost me a little under a thousand for everything, but worth it I think.

The one thing I'd recommend, due to my experience.......if you're going to go for a Bushy, try to hit sites like gunsamerica, or auctionarms. Find someone selling a rifle in the configuration you want, and get it that way. Guy at the shop told me three weeks. I took it with a grain of salt, and still no word whatsoever on when it'll show up. Bottom line is, if you're getting a Bushy ordered like I did, especially the M4, you're gonna wait a while.....
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 11:07:32 AM EDT
Same thing here, Hard Case...

I talked to a gentleman at Bushmaster today - he told me it would be three to four weeks before I see my 14.5" M4 flattop with a Phantom.

I did get most of the other things that I ordered, so, with the exception of the upper, I'm all set...and satisfied that I'm dealing with a reputable company.
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 12:25:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2002 12:30:24 PM EDT by Hawkeye1]

Originally Posted By LastDefender:
1. Semi-striped Rock River or Bushmaster post-ban lower with a two stage trigger and no butt stock or pistol grip. Estimated cost: $250.00

2. Pre-ban Rock River A4 flat top upper with a chrome bore/chamber, 16" M4 barrel, Colt M4 fat handguards, side swivel sling mount. Estimated cost: $550.00



You are aware that this combination is illegal.

I am a die-hard Bushmaster fan. Mine have always been great, and I have had nothing but outstanding service from Bushmaster as well.
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 3:27:23 PM EDT
I realize I'm in danger of being flamed by all of you Anti-ASA people out there, but I think that American Spirit Arms www.gunkits.com makes one of the best looking M4's around. And as far as reliability goes, I've had very little trouble with my ASA CAR-15. The problems I did have were traced back to bad mags. It's been great since resolving that issue.

Anyway..... check out this sweet looking ASA !

Link Posted: 3/12/2002 6:45:49 PM EDT
I have to agre with Fal. I have a Bushy M4 with a fake Flash supressor telescoped over the end like the RRA LEPG rifle courtesy of Kurt's Kustom Firearms. You could always put Colt guards on a Bushy for the same RRA effect. Personally I'm going in the direction of a Rail System in the future.
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 7:05:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Hawkeye1:

Originally Posted By LastDefender:
1. Semi-striped Rock River or Bushmaster post-ban lower with a two stage trigger and no butt stock or pistol grip. Estimated cost: $250.00

2. Pre-ban Rock River A4 flat top upper with a chrome bore/chamber, 16" M4 barrel, Colt M4 fat handguards, side swivel sling mount. Estimated cost: $550.00



You are aware that this combination is illegal.



It is? Well, I guess you missed #4:


4. Install an EGW brake in lieu of flash suppressor and mill off the bayonette lug. Estimated cost $75.00.


Remove the lug, install a muzzle brake (permanently attached assumed) and it is, of course, perfectly legal.
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 7:08:26 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Vinnie:
I have to agre with Fal. I have a Bushy M4 with a fake Flash supressor telescoped over the end like the RRA LEPG rifle courtesy of Kurt's Kustom Firearms. You could always put Colt guards on a Bushy for the same RRA effect. Personally I'm going in the direction of a Rail System in the future.



Vinnie, you got any pics of this? How much did you pay to have this installed?

Did Kurt have to turn down a little more of the OD of the barrel, since Bushy has a small "step-down" on about the last 1/2" of the bbl to the crown?
Link Posted: 3/12/2002 8:51:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2002 8:53:24 PM EDT by SteveSatch]
Why not get the new RRA M4 upper with 5.56 barrel and chamber and chrome lining? It comes with M4 handguards and the fake flash hider and it's only $410 in A2 and less for flatop
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:00:17 AM EDT
My RRA carbines with "M4 style barrels". Great shooters, very accurate and totally reliable. The postban Bushmaster does not duplicate the M4 look. The chrome lined barrels are unnecessay for the civilian shooter, but will be available soon for the "Walter Mitty" crowd.
http://www.printroom.com/_vti_bin/ViewImage.dll?userid=turkmcl&album_id=31216&image_id=19&courtesy=1
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:19:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By Hawkeye1:

Originally Posted By LastDefender:
1. Semi-striped Rock River or Bushmaster post-ban lower with a two stage trigger and no butt stock or pistol grip. Estimated cost: $250.00

2. Pre-ban Rock River A4 flat top upper with a chrome bore/chamber, 16" M4 barrel, Colt M4 fat handguards, side swivel sling mount. Estimated cost: $550.00



You are aware that this combination is illegal.



It is? Well, I guess you missed #4:


4. Install an EGW brake in lieu of flash suppressor and mill off the bayonette lug. Estimated cost $75.00.


Remove the lug, install a muzzle brake (permanently attached assumed) and it is, of course, perfectly legal.



Yes, I did miss #4. My apologies.

Why not just get a post ban upper and put the muzzle brake, and save having to mill off the baynet lug?
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 5:21:41 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tman:
The chrome lined barrels are unnecessay for the civilian shooter, but will be available soon for the "Walter Mitty" crowd.



Come to nice humid FL for a little while. You will love chrome lined barrels then. Its a nice little bit of extra insurance.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 6:26:43 AM EDT
Hawkeye1,
I live on the Texas Gulf Coast (37 years). Floridia is nothing like the humidity here. I have been both places. Never stuck a round in a chamber of any gun due to corrosion or had a bore rust. I maintain my guns. As I said, chrome bores are for the Walter Mitty crowd that spend their days on Internet chat rooms day dreaming.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 8:22:17 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tman:
Hawkeye1,
I live on the Texas Gulf Coast (37 years). Floridia is nothing like the humidity here. I have been both places. Never stuck a round in a chamber of any gun due to corrosion or had a bore rust. I maintain my guns. As I said, chrome bores are for the Walter Mitty crowd that spend their days on Internet chat rooms day dreaming.



Ok. Sorry. Who is Walter Mitty though? I'll go back to my chat room now.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 12:32:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2002 12:33:51 PM EDT by thee12nv]

Originally Posted By HUNTER223:
this is what i'd get:

Colt's M4 Carbine is a more compact, four-position buttstock version of the M16A2 weapons system.




That's exactly what mine looks like!
except mine says Oly, but still has the third stop on the selector lever =]

I went with the 14.5" Bushmaster upper and slappe don the Colt M4 guards, it is great.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 1:35:31 PM EDT
Ah, the younger generation's education is so lacking. "The Secret Life of Walter Middy" is a classic piece of literature by James Thurber. Walter Mitty is a daydreaming milquetoast who imagines himself in all sorts of various heroic guises.
Link Posted: 3/13/2002 3:30:05 PM EDT
Just out of curiosity, what do you consider the younger generation to be age wise?


Link Posted: 3/13/2002 3:51:09 PM EDT
I'm 61 this year. So, I guess anyone 59 or younger. LOL
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:02:25 AM EDT
HMC,
Email me and I will share all the details on cost, suppliers and experiences on these guns.

turnerm@netzero.net
Link Posted: 3/14/2002 5:16:23 AM EDT
Charging_Handle,

This is what I put together and is probably what you are looking for:

I bought a BM lower. I then bought a BM 14.5 inch preban M4 profiled upper. Then I purchased a G.I. M4 side sling swivel and M4 handguards. I sent the upper to Kurt's Kustoms in FL who cut off the bayo lug, removed the FS and installed his A3 TacBrake, bringing the barrel length out to 16 inches. (The brake looks awesome and it won't beat you with a loud report like the BM Y-Comps) The completed package looks and feels like the M4's the SF guys carry. Email me if you need any more info.
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