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Posted: 11/25/2016 9:19:04 PM EDT
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So I'm looking at getting a nice IR laser/ illumination set up and have narrowed it down to these two options. The two models both seem to have their pro's and cons, my research seems to have turned up the stuff listed below. Does anyone have any experiences with these systems? Which one would you get and why?
Money isn't really an object, because I want nice and reliable stuff, but at the same time I don't want to waste it if that makes sense... ie if its worth it I'm willing to spend the extra $$$. Any insight would be greatly appreciated. Thanks! DBAL-A3 Pros: - Less Expensive - Green visible laser - Better illuminatior & laser? DBAL-A3 Cons: - Heard that these aren't as reliable - Large, Heavy, Bulky ATPIAL-C Pros: - Lower profile - More reliable? - Lighter weight - More ergonomic/ easier to use ATPIAL-C Cons - More expensive - Not as nice of an illuminator? |
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I struggled with the same and finally went with the dbal i2 single spectrum.
The dbal i2 and atpial-c are roughly the same size and weight. The DBAL I2 SS doesn't have a visable laser but why would you want one? The dbal is also about $500 cheaper! 
If you want an atpial wait a little longer, save more money and get the real deal peq15 for around $2000, otherwise the i2 is the more logical choice. |
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I struggled with the same and finally went with the dbal i2 single spectrum. The dbal i2 and atpial-c are roughly the same size and weight. The DBAL I2 SS doesn't have a visable laser but why would you want one? The dbal is also about $500 cheaper!
If you want an atpial wait a little longer, save more money and get the real deal peq15 for around $2000, otherwise the i2 is the more logical choice. How do you like the illuminator on the I2 SS? Do you find yourself needing (or wanting) a separate IR torch? |
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How do you like the illuminator on the I2 SS? Do you find yourself needing (or wanting) a separate IR torch? Quoted:
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I struggled with the same and finally went with the dbal i2 single spectrum. The dbal i2 and atpial-c are roughly the same size and weight. The DBAL I2 SS doesn't have a visable laser but why would you want one? The dbal is also about $500 cheaper!
If you want an atpial wait a little longer, save more money and get the real deal peq15 for around $2000, otherwise the i2 is the more logical choice. How do you like the illuminator on the I2 SS? Do you find yourself needing (or wanting) a separate IR torch? Compared to the D2 you'll want another illuminator. Think of this way in a house you wouldn't want a 1K lumen flashlight or a 100 lumen one in a wide open field, each fill a different roll. |
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Compared to the D2 you'll want another illuminator. Think of this way in a house you wouldn't want a 1K lumen flashlight or a 100 lumen one in a wide open field, each fill a different roll. Quoted:
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I struggled with the same and finally went with the dbal i2 single spectrum. The dbal i2 and atpial-c are roughly the same size and weight. The DBAL I2 SS doesn't have a visable laser but why would you want one? The dbal is also about $500 cheaper!
If you want an atpial wait a little longer, save more money and get the real deal peq15 for around $2000, otherwise the i2 is the more logical choice. How do you like the illuminator on the I2 SS? Do you find yourself needing (or wanting) a separate IR torch? Compared to the D2 you'll want another illuminator. Think of this way in a house you wouldn't want a 1K lumen flashlight or a 100 lumen one in a wide open field, each fill a different roll. Thanks. I'm taking a look at the market trying to plan my first investment in NV equipment. I've always been a fan of the "buy once cry once" approach, and it looks like I'm going to be crying a lot. 
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How do you like the illuminator on the I2 SS? Do you find yourself needing (or wanting) a separate IR torch? Quoted:
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I struggled with the same and finally went with the dbal i2 single spectrum. The dbal i2 and atpial-c are roughly the same size and weight. The DBAL I2 SS doesn't have a visable laser but why would you want one? The dbal is also about $500 cheaper!
If you want an atpial wait a little longer, save more money and get the real deal peq15 for around $2000, otherwise the i2 is the more logical choice. How do you like the illuminator on the I2 SS? Do you find yourself needing (or wanting) a separate IR torch? I havnt had a chance to run it much but for me I will not need another illuminator. I think it will be good for 300 yards outdoors which is further than I would realistically shoot at night anyway. It also has multiple settings for indoor use as well. I have an inforce wml momentary Only white light and the DBAL I2 and I don't foresee myself wanting or needing anything else. |
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Quoted: I struggled with the same and finally went with the dbal i2 single spectrum. The dbal i2 and atpial-c are roughly the same size and weight. The DBAL I2 SS doesn't have a visable laser but why would you want one? The dbal is also about $500 cheaper! If you want an atpial wait a little longer, save more money and get the real deal peq15 for around $2000, otherwise the i2 is the more logical choice. |
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I havnt had a chance to run it much but for me I will not need another illuminator. I think it will be good for 300 yards outdoors which is further than I would realistically shoot at night anyway. It also has multiple settings for indoor use as well. I have an inforce wml momentary Only white light and the DBAL I2 and I don't foresee myself wanting or needing anything else. I believe the DBAL-A3 and DBAL-I2 illuminators are the same power (4mw high and 2mw low) and I don't find my A3 illuminator useful in most conditions beyond about 150 yards. That said, I can't positively ID with my PVS-14 until about 100 yards, so it really doesn't matter. I'm old and blind. I've tried several light/laser combinations and haven't settled on one yet. FWIW. |
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The price difference is only like $100 so I'd call that a wash as long as you can identify one that suits your needs better. The green laser is significantly better that red IMO. Whether you think a visible laser is useful or not is a different conversation. I believe them to be a useful tool to have. I have also not had any reliability issues with my I2 which is a couple years old, and my A3 which is about a year old. I also would not call the A3 bulky compared to the ATPIAL. They are pretty similar when placed side by side. The design of the ATPIAL just makes it look more streamlined and compact to some. That said my next laser will be an ATPIAL, unless one of the newer offerings were being teased with makes it to market... why? Cause they just look badass.
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It's anecdotal only, but I see far more posts about people having various issues with their DBALs than with ATPIAL-Cs.
Every one I've seen has been quickly taken care of, either by the vendor or by Steiner, but it's a data point, though again, anecdotal only. Others might argue that more people who buy ATPIALs do so for looks, meaning that the DBALs get used more, but that too is anecdotal. I will say that given the option between full power/full feature AN/PEQ-15 (ATPIAL) and AN/PEQ-15A (DBAL-A2), I choose the ATPIAL hands down, all day every day, no contest whatsoever, and I have equal access to both and the latitude to pick and choose. For that reason, the ATPIAL-C makes more sense for me because it's manual of arms is identical to the one I already know and prefer, and I can literally operate it in the dark instinctively. Between the full power versions, I prefer the ATPIAL because, IMHO, the controls are easier to learn/use, with everything being more intuitively placed. While side by side comparisons show that there is not a great difference in height between the DBAL and ATPIAL, the ATPIAL "feels" lower profile, and the "wings" hug the rail more, making the whole thing tighter and cleaner on the weapon, and less of a snag hazard than the boxy DBAL. The ATPIAL is also, IMHO, easier to zero, and there's no positive loading crap, which many folks don't even bother to do anyways... that's neither here nor there, but it is what it is. I'm not convinced that the metal housing is a positive for the DBAL, it will ultimately retain more heat (especially considering how often it's mounted directly over the gas tube, and near the gas block, and metal will dent if it gets a hard enough impact, potentially causing permanent damage, whereas polymer can flex to a certain extent. I don't think I've ever seen a cracked ATPIAL (though I've seen plenty of PEQ-2s and PAQ-4s cracked), a lot of people love metal and assume it's always stronger than plastic, but for some applications plastic is often superior, kind of reminds me of the M9 guide-rod--people still swap their plastic ones out for metal ones, though everyone who has actually evaluated them say that the polymer guide rod is not only cheaper, but much more durable/reliable. On the full power versions, the only advantages that I see on the DBAL's side is that the pattern generator retention nubs are less likely to break off, which does happen with the ATPIAL. Comparing the civilian models, the DBAL-A3 also has a QD mount (the AN/PEQ-15A technically does, too, but it's an ARMS mount...), a green laser, high/low features, and an "adjustable" illuminator. QD mount - yes, with the ATPIAL, you're stuck with OEM. Green laser - visible for longer distances and brighter in the daytime. Not a bad thing, but probably not that huge of an issue for most people who only use the visible laser to zero the laser. That being said, it has theoretically more capability than the visible red of the ATPIAL-C. High/low settings - probably the biggest thing going for the DBAL-A3 over the ATPIAL-C is that the DBAL-A3 has an intermediate low setting, which allows you to modulate the brightness of the laser, and it can be done with the switch. You can do it with the ATPIAL-C with the diffuser cover, but I've already mentioned that the pattern generator retention on the ATPIAL is not super duper awesome, and there are about three common failure points with the Insight OEM covers. Adjustable illuminator - TNVC is always quick to remind, and I think it's an important point to make, the "adjustability" of the DBAL-A3s illuminator is limited to the ability to make the "circle" of illumination bigger or smaller, if you're used to full powered laser based illuminators, where the illuminator is focusable, simply making the "cone" bigger or smaller is a disappointing substitute, focusing the laser allows you to bring more light and more power to a smaller area for detection and observation, making the "cone" smaller doesn't do that, it just makes the illuminated area smaller. Finally, the DBAL-A3 also has the visible override feature... but as I understand it, only if you're using a Steiner light, which is personally not a unit I've had much interest in, if only because I already have lights, and I know which ones I like, maybe I'm just being closed minded, but so be it. ~Augee |
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One question I have is, do you want/need a visible laser? If not then the DBAL I2 SS seems like the logical choice. If you need a vis laser then the DBAL A3 seems like a logical choice because green is more visible than the atpials red.
I see no reason to go with the atpial-c unless you buy it for looks, or you also have a full powered version and you want something with the same controls and operations such as augee. The full powered peq15 beats all of these hands down and that is what I will eventually upgrade to but for now the DBAL i2 does everything the atpial-c does (except vis laser but I don't need that) for $500 less. |
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Makes things a lot easier to zero. I don't get near enough night range time. Quoted:
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I struggled with the same and finally went with the dbal i2 single spectrum. The dbal i2 and atpial-c are roughly the same size and weight. The DBAL I2 SS doesn't have a visable laser but why would you want one? The dbal is also about $500 cheaper!
If you want an atpial wait a little longer, save more money and get the real deal peq15 for around $2000, otherwise the i2 is the more logical choice. True the vis laser makes zeroing easier. I have a private range at home so I can shoot when I want so I decided to save the $500 and go with the dbal. |
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One question I have is, do you want/need a visible laser? If not then the DBAL I2 SS seems like the logical choice. If you need a vis laser then the DBAL A3 seems like a logical choice because green is more visible than the atpials red. I see no reason to go with the atpial-c unless you buy it for looks, or you also have a full powered version and you want something with the same controls and operations such as augee. The full powered peq15 beats all of these hands down and that is what I will eventually upgrade to but for now the DBAL i2 does everything the atpial-c does (except vis laser but I don't need that) for $500 less. How exactly does this happen? I ended up picking the A3 over the -C due to a number of differences in the civilian versions, but if I could get a full powered PEQ-15 I would pay the extra cash for it. |
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How exactly does this happen? I ended up picking the A3 over the -C due to a number of differences in the civilian versions, but if I could get a full powered PEQ-15 I would pay the extra cash for it. Quoted:
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One question I have is, do you want/need a visible laser? If not then the DBAL I2 SS seems like the logical choice. If you need a vis laser then the DBAL A3 seems like a logical choice because green is more visible than the atpials red. I see no reason to go with the atpial-c unless you buy it for looks, or you also have a full powered version and you want something with the same controls and operations such as augee. The full powered peq15 beats all of these hands down and that is what I will eventually upgrade to but for now the DBAL i2 does everything the atpial-c does (except vis laser but I don't need that) for $500 less. How exactly does this happen? I ended up picking the A3 over the -C due to a number of differences in the civilian versions, but if I could get a full powered PEQ-15 I would pay the extra cash for it. Unless he has a law enforcement agency that is going to buy it for him. Good luck getting a full powers one. |
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There are a variety of ways that "gray market" PEQ-15s and other full powered lasers can be purchased.
Unless you just get lucky, most are sold used (sometimes quite used), and above MSRP. They will not be supported by the manufacturer if they develop any issues, so it is often an expensive gamble. It is exceedingly rare for one to be repaired to working condition once damaged (most devices are sealed anyways, and the manufacturer's method of "repairing" them is often to just send you a new one and cannibalize the old one). Also, while there are a lot of legitimately available gray market lasers out there, there are also plenty of straight-up stolen ones, so unless you can get a good provenance on them, you're taking that gamble as well. Members here have received visits from military LE agencies requesting the return of such items. Good news, if you purchased it in good faith that it was "clean," they'll usually just take it from you and leave you alone. Bad news, the chances of you ever getting that money back are slim to none, especially if the seller you got it from had been under investigation for stealing military optics. I've heard of people getting their money back from PayPal in these situations, but that's about where you end up. I know plenty of people will chime in that all restricted grade lasers are stolen and/or shouldn't be in civilian hands. Couple items to make note of: Military lasers and optics are not supposed to be DRMOed in functional condition. There are a lot of rules and regulations about how items need to be divested, and they don't often get followed. It is what it is. Again, it's a gamble. Usually, since they were trying to get rid of them anyways, no one does anything about it. Sometimes, that's not the case. LE agencies usually make an agreement with manufacturers that lasers will not be sold on the open market after being received, on the penalty of "no more lasers for you." That's great, and you rarely see LE departments directly re-selling restricted class lasers. However, many of these purchases are done through distribution/logistics companies, even if the lasers are drop-shipped to the agency. Many of these concerns will accept trade-ins to offset the cost of new equipment. Take that as you will. Bottom line: Clean and legitimate full powered lasers are out there. There are also a lot of not so clean and not so legitimate ones out there. The manufacturer will not fix it if it breaks or is defective. Regardless of whether its clean or not, you, as a buyer are taking a substantial risk buying one. None of the foregoing constitutes any kind of legal advice. You life, your money, your choice. ~Augee |
| If anybody would like to talk lasers I use a bunch of them several times a week working at TNVC and I can give you some hands on user feedback from a guy who has used them overseas and in the woods hunting hogs and coyotes as well as at NV centrick shooting classes, feel free to call. |
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Both are excellent options. I went with the DBAL-A3 for the followig reasons:
It was cheaper Has a green laser Adjustable brightness Adjustable IR illuminator size Visible override which I will use if someone ever produces a comparable tape switch for it and surefire series of lights. It is shorter than the ATPIAL-C, if you own a SBR you know how valuable rail space can be. It sits higher on the rail, for most people see this is a bad thing, but it allows for more weapon light mounting options It is about a half oz heavier but that nothing terrible. |
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Other than the novelty of having the "real thing" (and the visible beam, I guess) is there anything tangibly better about the restricted units within about 300 meters?
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If anybody would like to talk lasers I use a bunch of them several times a week working at TNVC and I can give you some hands on user feedback from a guy who has used them overseas and in the woods hunting hogs and coyotes as well as at NV centrick shooting classes, feel free to call. Do you mind talking to someone who's going need a few months to save up for a purchase? |
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Other than the novelty of having the "real thing" (and the visible beam, I guess) is there anything tangibly better about the restricted units within about 300 meters? Others may disagree. IMHO, yes. High power on the aiming laser allows you to actually use pattern generators for precise aiming, low power + pattern generator ends up resulting in a really dim marker. High power is also better for designating in general, which can be helpful not only for maneuver combat, but even if you're say hog hunting with another person(s), the ability to designate can be useful. The adjustable laser illuminator is also very useful on both high and low power, again, as I mentioned, you can focus the beam tighter for more illumination on a smaller area, plus you have a full power onboard illuminator that's also adjustable, giving you much better reach and versatility in search, observation, and detection. All of these things can apply both inside and outside of 300m, and I would much prefer to shoot an NV qualification table (50-300m) with a high power laser than without. It's not that you can't make do with a Class Ib laser, they're plenty serviceable, but at the end of the day, not that many people would, if both were put in front of them for free and guaranteed to work forever, a Class Ib laser over a IIIb laser. Some do prefer the DBAL's AIM Low-Low setting, but the same thing can be accomplished with a diffuser cover/pattern generator, while retaining the high power functions. ~Augee |
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Unless he has a law enforcement agency that is going to buy it for him. Good luck getting a full powers one. Quoted:
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One question I have is, do you want/need a visible laser? If not then the DBAL I2 SS seems like the logical choice. If you need a vis laser then the DBAL A3 seems like a logical choice because green is more visible than the atpials red. I see no reason to go with the atpial-c unless you buy it for looks, or you also have a full powered version and you want something with the same controls and operations such as augee. The full powered peq15 beats all of these hands down and that is what I will eventually upgrade to but for now the DBAL i2 does everything the atpial-c does (except vis laser but I don't need that) for $500 less. How exactly does this happen? I ended up picking the A3 over the -C due to a number of differences in the civilian versions, but if I could get a full powered PEQ-15 I would pay the extra cash for it. Unless he has a law enforcement agency that is going to buy it for him. Good luck getting a full powers one. Wrong. I saw a lot at a gun show a few weeks ago ranging from $1800 - $2200. I am also on few facebook groups and one pops up on there every few weeks or so around $2000. |
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Other than the novelty of having the "real thing" (and the visible beam, I guess) is there anything tangibly better about the restricted units within about 300 meters? Do you mind talking to someone who's going need a few months to save up for a purchase? Quoted:
Other than the novelty of having the "real thing" (and the visible beam, I guess) is there anything tangibly better about the restricted units within about 300 meters? Quoted:
If anybody would like to talk lasers I use a bunch of them several times a week working at TNVC and I can give you some hands on user feedback from a guy who has used them overseas and in the woods hunting hogs and coyotes as well as at NV centrick shooting classes, feel free to call. Do you mind talking to someone who's going need a few months to save up for a purchase? The .mil lasers are more dense and more visible at further distances and have better illuminators that throw alot farther. Try lasing a target 1,000 meters away with a civilian model. When the right deal pops up for a peq 15 I will jump on it. |
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None of the foregoing constitutes any kind of legal advice. You life, your money, your choice. ~Augee Quoted:
None of the foregoing constitutes any kind of legal advice. You life, your money, your choice. ~Augee Thanks - you summarized what was my general understanding in much more detail. Quoted:
Both are excellent options. I went with the DBAL-A3 for the followig reasons: It was cheaper Has a green laser Adjustable brightness Adjustable IR illuminator size Visible override which I will use if someone ever produces a comparable tape switch for it and surefire series of lights. It is shorter than the ATPIAL-C, if you own a SBR you know how valuable rail space can be. It sits higher on the rail, for most people see this is a bad thing, but it allows for more weapon light mounting options It is about a half oz heavier but that nothing terrible. My reasons exactly. Thanks for reading my mind and posting for me. 
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Do you mind talking to someone who's going need a few months to save up for a purchase? I'll answer for Sam and say he'd be glad. I have yet to talk to anyone at TNVC that was not super helpful and completely pressure-free when it came to advice vs. buying. Vic spent at least a half hour with me over a year ago when I first started trying to wrap my mind around all the different pieces, where to spend your money and where to save, etc. My first purchase didn't come until a week or two ago. |
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Other than the novelty of having the "real thing" (and the visible beam, I guess) is there anything tangibly better about the restricted units within about 300 meters? Do you mind talking to someone who's going need a few months to save up for a purchase? Quoted:
Other than the novelty of having the "real thing" (and the visible beam, I guess) is there anything tangibly better about the restricted units within about 300 meters? Quoted:
If anybody would like to talk lasers I use a bunch of them several times a week working at TNVC and I can give you some hands on user feedback from a guy who has used them overseas and in the woods hunting hogs and coyotes as well as at NV centrick shooting classes, feel free to call. Do you mind talking to someone who's going need a few months to save up for a purchase? Of Course I do not mind, This is my job and I love my job. I'll give you all the info, then I'll give some in depth info i have accumulated over the years in the feild with a few of the different laser systems and let you decide while you save, my ext. is 303 |
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