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Posted: 12/19/2012 2:57:15 PM EDT
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I took my PS32 out duck hunting today. Just goofing around before shoot time, I tried to image a couple guys on the next dike over about 200 yds away. No dice. Trees and bushes they were standing next to and in front of pretty much defeated the detection ability of this unit. Everything was white. I went to Instalert 1. Everything was red.
When they say it will detect a man at XXX meters. They must mean on man on a flat surface standing in the open. It seems like to me, if there is ANYTHING in the viewfinder besides the animal/person I am looking for, detection goes out the window. |
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Quoted: I took my PS32 out duck hunting today. Just goofing around before shoot time, I tried to image a couple guys on the next dyke over about 200 yds away. No dice. Trees and bushes they were standing next to and in front of pretty much defeated the detection ability of this unit. Everything was white. I went to Instalert 1. Everything was red. When they say it will detect a man at XXX meters. They must mean on man on a flat surface standing in the open. It seems like to me, if there is ANYTHING in the viewfinder besides the animal/person I am looking for, detection goes out the window. I have not messed with the PS32, but unless it was exactly 98.6 degrees out  you should have been able to pick them out.Did you mess with brightness? Black hot/ white hot? focus?
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Allot of the thermal detections response depends on the humidity and temperature, rain is the worst when everything is a mono-temp. A boat in the water is pretty good since the water is a mono-temp base, but you cannot see through objects blocking other objects, that is a misnomer for thermal detection.
The PS-32 takes its focal plane array correction from the center of the view, looking up into the sky where everything is colder is not good. There will be different times and environmental climate changes when the thermal really comes onto its own, sometimes you have to wait for that to happen, like after sundown as the vegetation cools off, a couple of hours difference completely changes the response for better or for worse. The more you use it the more you will get used to it and when it works the best and when it is the most difficult to use. I use mine for recovering dead ducks in the decoy spread in the reeds and water lilies, have recovered many a duck that I would have lost otherwise. The most difficult time for me to use my thermal weapons sights is at night when it is relatively warm out and it has not cooled down. If I am in an unfamiliar place in the woods that I do not recognize from being there during the day, I have a difficult time even finding the proper horizon - tree-land interface is almost unrecognizable. Other times, when I know where I am at, I am right on target immediately. |
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It was not humid and about 40 degrees out. They weren't standing behind anything. Just beside trees and brush. It was a sea of white. Black hot didn't help. Instalert 1 was a sea of red.
It seems like to me that if there is anything else besides flat ground in the image, it is difficult to detect. |
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You will get the hang of it with more experience, pointing the center of the view down to the ground will often erase the red under those conditions using the upper 1/2 of the viewer to look through.
For me the worst is in a area I am not familiar with, sometimes I cannot see the forest for the trees.... 
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Quoted:
Allot of the thermal detections response depends on the humidity and temperature, rain is the worst when everything is a mono-temp. A boat in the water is pretty good since the water is a mono-temp base, but you cannot see through objects blocking other objects, that is a misnomer for thermal detection. The PS-32 takes its focal plane array correction from the center of the view, looking up into the sky where everything is colder is not good. There will be different times and environmental climate changes when the thermal really comes onto its own, sometimes you have to wait for that to happen, like after sundown as the vegetation cools off, a couple of hours difference completely changes the response for better or for worse. The more you use it the more you will get used to it and when it works the best and when it is the most difficult to use. I use mine for recovering dead ducks in the decoy spread in the reeds and water lilies, have recovered many a duck that I would have lost otherwise. The most difficult time for me to use my thermal weapons sights is at night when it is relatively warm out and it has not cooled down. If I am in an unfamiliar place in the woods that I do not recognize from being there during the day, I have a difficult time even finding the proper horizon - tree-land interface is almost unrecognizable. Other times, when I know where I am at, I am right on target immediately. Damn solid advice! 
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Quoted:
It was not humid and about 40 degrees out. They weren't standing behind anything. Just beside trees and brush. It was a sea of white. Black hot didn't help. Instalert 1 was a sea of red. It seems like to me that if there is anything else besides flat ground in the image, it is difficult to detect. Did you recalibrate? It just seems like in the conditions you were in it should work well. |
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Yeah, the TS-24 does the same thing but it's a green square on the lower right corner.
I wonder if there might have been some fogging on the objective lens. I've never had it happen, but it might possibly cause a similar effect? I'd suggest he call FLIR customer service, or email them. It may need to be sent in for repair. |
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Is there a possibility that, being that it was cold out, and these guys were likely wearing heavy clothing, that clothing trapped their body heat? Also, perhaps the exterior layers cooled to ambient temperature, given enough layers?
Is that a viable scenario for what he's describing? |
I had posted some information before, here it is again
initial image - lots of cool street, hot trees and buildings washed out white  by bringing my finger, held paralel to the ground, horizontally, along the bottom edge of the lens, and rolling it upwards toward the center of the lens (it started on the black ring of that the lens cap goes on) you can introduce heat into the sensor, causing the range of temps it has to display to change, getting this  image is much better thru the view finder than above, and the finger never actually entered the displayed fov, but enough heat was present that the sensor used it to change how it segmented the range of temps to display edit - you can see the effects of the heat from the finger moving into the fov - notice that the dark paved area now shows some white in the bottom image EDIT - Just to note. You don't have to add the heat from the bottom of the fov - it was just because of the way i was trying to take the photo's, that it was more convenient to do so. Normally, holding the scope, you should be able to use your little finger on the hand holding the scope, and approach the fov from the top, the top side, or the bottom, what ever is more convenient to do so. |
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Skypup,
Yes, I've done that, thanks to experimentation, and noticed that even in the white mode, if you point the unit down, so as to have only 1/2 the viewer screen being utilized, the image clears significantly. If you are still having problems with washout, raising your finger to just below the viewer window will give a much better image. |
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I tried the technique of using half the viewing image pointed at the ground. I also tried the finger technique.
I am still not loving the thermal thing. Last night when trying these techniques, I saw a person with my naked eye near a building at about 100 yards. He was the night janitor at a local school. It was 55 degrees out and at 8:00pm at night. He was white hot and the building was white hot when he was walking between buildings. I could see him clearly until he moved such that the building was directly behind him. When it was me - him - building all in a line, I could see him with my naked eye but not with the PS32. Nothing. There was no temperature differential between the two. I know the concrete walls of that building were not at 98.6 degrees. As I mentioned before, any structure or bush or tree seems to eliminate the detection ability if the target is right next to or in front of it. If I was 10 yards away, I am sure he would have stood out great. At 100 yards, no way. This effect is worse with increasing distance. At even modest distances (50 yards+), the ability of the sensor to detect the thermal differences is very limited. This seems like a HUGE HUGE limitation to this technology. I don't doubt the ability of the PS32 to detect a man, coyote or pig in an open field. The thermal difference in this case is at a maximum. Animal on flat ground = good. Animal near or in front of above ground objects = bad and gets worse with increasing distance. P.S. I sent my PS32 back for a refund. This lack of performance and the fact that the battery never flashes green when I charge it, makes me question it's usefulness. I spoke to Flir. They said it was a common flaw. If I would have had my PVS14, I could have easily seen the man near the structure. Maybe the 35mm lens of the LS64 will do the job better. |
You may have had a bad unit. A lot of the detection issues are due to the way the unit auto sets the temp range. When object temp delta is higher you will see image with great contrast, when temps delt is low image gets washed out or over driven. The man washed out by the building, likely caused by range of temps displayed too low thats why all higher temp objects are simply painted white if whitehot or black if blackhot . Urban use is limited. These models don't have all the features that make thermal more useful in urban situations, or environments where temp differential is minimal (temp delta). Cooler nights hunting works really great. NV has its strengths as well as thermal, I have both  Wish the flir units had usb interface to allow user programming of temp ranges for say preset1 preset 2 etc.. The unit we have at work I have presets for each type of condition you are trying to locate, closer to temp range you are looking for. The better the preset the better the contrast (If nothing colder than 70' set min range to 70' this gives more contrast to upper temp ranges). If upper range is set to 96'' everything over that range will be same color, kinda like man in front of building, flir unit set auto temp range too low and you have all white. If it dosen't work for you get the $$$ back.
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| I haven't given up completely on Thermal. I am actually considering "going all in" and getting the LS64 instead. I think this may solve what I see as the big problem - detection of animals amongst thermal clutter at a distance. The larger lens and larger detector should improve things. I could be wrong. |
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Quoted:
I haven't given up completely on Thermal. I am actually considering "going all in" and getting the LS64 instead. I think this may solve what I see as the big problem - detection of animals amonst thermal clutter at a distance. The larger lens and larger detector should improve things. I could be wrong. Cool, keep us posted. Going to get one of those in a few months hopefully. |
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Thermal is not perfect by any means it can have its issues in certain environments like posted above. Humidity, rain, heavy fog, cold nights with lots of wind chill all play parts in what you see threw your viewfinder, and your detection range. Great nights to view thermal down here in Houston are bright sunny days followed by a good cold front with clear nights. Image quality and detection range is great under those conditions. Its similar to having a full moon out looking threw your nvd's compared to having a quarter moon to no moon.
Now the above poster mentioned a white out look. I have experienced a shit ton of nights viewing threw my 307 with a white out look thew my viewer. Usually these nights are high humidity nights down here, or they are very cold nights that start out with good image quality then around 3 a. m. the image goes to shit. These cold nights usually have a good wind chill, and it becomes hard to identify all your surrounding brush. In essence it gives you a white out look, or switching to black hot the image will look very dark. Looking down sanderos can be tough under these conditions because you can't tell if your looking right in the brush or your looking down a sandero. LOL.. I laugh at some of my buddies when they say " man I can't see shit threw this thing", and there looking strait at mosquite 5 yards from them. Like a few others have posted the more time you spend behind your unit the more familiar you will become with the operations in different environments. You will also be able to start to I'd different animals at longer ranges due to there movement threw your viewer. Switching back and forth from white hot to black hot will also help you see small differences in what your viewing. To me that helps more than anything with being able to I'd hogs at long ranges. |
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I too have had some bad viewing times with my FLIR unit, but I quickly learned to try it again under various conditions before I jumped to a judgment that something was wrong with the unit. I'm fortunate enough to have more than one unit to play with, so that also helps allot in that respect.
I always read allot about everyone planning on going to a 64 unit and a bigger lens. My monocular is a TS24 and my scope is an EMX MK2 with a big objective lens. I can't find anything in the view that tells me that the extra money spent for the bigger lens or pixels is worth that much extra. They're nice, but I guess it's all in what you think you need. But it seems to be kinda like buying a Corvette just to drive to work. |
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I am an electrical engineer. I work with lasers, detectors, and optics. My reasoning for considering a larger core and the 35mm lens in the LS64 was to minimize what I see as the primary limiting factor in thermal systems. The biggest problem is:
The ability of the detector to detect temperature differentials is inversely proportional to distance. Ex: Man in open field at 100 yards = high differential Man in front of a building at 100 yards = lower differential My thought is that a larger core can detect smaller differentials than a smaller core at a given distance. Does that make sense? |
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Yes, at a technical level it does. But in the real world, I don't see that much difference under normal use. My EMX thermal rifle scope has 50mm lens, and my FLIR unit is a great deal smaller. Most times the FLIR has better viewing than the EMX in comparison.
I know bigger is supposed to be better, but under normal usage I don't feel it's that important. |
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I agree, it can be different based on the area you're using it in. My observations are based on the woods in the Midwest under various temperatures and humidities. So far, I've not seen much to justify spending a bunch more on a larger objective, or more pixels. I also agree that there is likely a gain, but not that much for the money required.
But as long as there's bigger, and a promise of better, there will always be someone willing to go there.
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Omegaman, after thinking about your comments, I suspect you could be right. I was assuming a larger core meant more sensitivity. But, these are two separate things. The fact that my PS32 had trouble sensing temperature differences between objects as the distance increases probably will not be improved by adding more pixels. I can see were my logic might have been wrong. The problem is sensitivity of the system to see temperature differences when there are other objects in the image, not resolution.
Resolution will probably be a help in seeing farther if the sensor can get a good image to begin with due to sufficient temperature differential. A larger core probably does not mean greater sensitivity. Like an earlier person mentioned, system sensitivity is probably a function of the detector type being used (large or small) and the software used to process the signal, not the size of the core. |
| i have had the same wash out effect when looking at things against a warm background with the flir m18 - but with this i find switching to one of the color screens usually sees the things ok - even when they were invisible with the black/white or white/black - the color seems to give a better contrast for smaller temp. differences - i guess because there are more colors to give many more shades - i dont usually like the color view but sometimes its an advantage |
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Yes, I'm not an expert, but I suspect it's a combination of the core and the software. I was amazed at all the different settings that can be changed through the software on my TS 24. I sent it in to be serviced, and they accidentally loaded it with all the software to do everything possible on it! They let me keep the changes, and it's one hell ova a unit now! There's not anything that I've come across for any viewing problems, and it's not one of the highest dollar units for core, pixels, or objective lens. As I mentioned, I'm suspecting your original problem was related to a defect either in the core, or software.
I always hear all the talk about getting the bigger and better, but I'll match up the lower priced models one for one for all around everyday use. If something happens to it, you're not out a ton of money either! |
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The extra pixels are nice for the clarity in that clip, but the addition of the color seems to clutter things to me. It kinda confuses the image.
The FLIR InstAlert is just the opposite. By coloring the objects with the highest percentage of heat red, it highlights the hot stuff without cluttering the image with allot of other colors that don't seem to really mean anything to the normal viewer. In the case of that one, pixels would be the real advantage, that I'd weigh against the cost. For sure not the color! |
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Whoa. What? Tell me more about this!
I was amazed at all the different settings that can be changed through the software on my TS 24. I sent it in to be serviced, and they accidentally loaded it with all the software to do everything possible on it! They let me keep the changes, and it's one hell ova a unit now! There's not anything that I've come across for any viewing problems, and it's not one of the highest dollar units for core, pixels, or objective lens. As I mentioned, I'm suspecting your original problem was related to a defect either in the core, or software.
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I'm not sure what it is you want to know. My TS24 now has custom features that others don't have. It will go up to 4X digital zoom, shows time and date, can measure temperature from a distance, and of course take videos and stills like the pro model can. It has all the standard stuff as well, such as the InstAlert at 4 levels, rechargeable batteries, SD card, & etc..
I also have a near IR laser I can attach to make it an excellent spotter scope for night hunts with NV. A bit more elaborate than the PS models, but a good example of what can be done through the software on them.
Anything else? 
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Just to activate the stills and videos is around $1000.00 . The 4X digital zoom isn't that great, as it gets blocky. But it does help at times. I like all of it though.
I'm betting any of those things can be turned on for a price. I just got lucky. There is an auto snooze mode on the TS24 that can be turned on and off with a small switch. I wonder, does the PS series have that too? |
| yes the color screens are not so nice to look thru but when there is so little temp. contrast that the black and white can not see stuff then its nice to use the color and see what you are missing - the m18 has a mode - i guess like instalert - where the hotter stuff is colored blue or red ( depending on polarity ) but all else is normal black /white but even this has not got the ability to see into those 'hot againt hot background areas' and pick detail out like the color screens , this is the only time i use the colors as i prefer the normal b/w screen |
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Thermal can detect very small changes in temps. Problem is trying to display them. If you had 4 different shades of grey. Software has to decide what temps are shade 1, which ones are shade 2, etc, etc.. Well if viewing a man standing in front of a building, a wide range of temps are grouped into the upper shade of grey/white. This is why you won't see him. Screen is not lying. he is there, just blended in with building temp which is grouped into same color ie white. Higher res detector will not necessary solve this. But software to display black as 95 degrees and white as 105 degrees with small temp differences as shades of grey will show him clearly. If you only have a voltage tester with a 0v light 5v light 10v light 15v light to display a voltage levels, you will never be able to display 2v, light won't light till it is equal or exceeds 5v, same for 7.5v, 8v,9v etc.... Well the software for the thermal groups temps and displays them automatically. Problem we run into is when temps in the environment are grouped in with living animals temps and all we see is white. Wish I could borrow the flir unit I have at work, and I could find out what temp range would be best to show animals in front of brush/trees and not be washed out. Some things can't be taught, so engineering degree is only as good as the person's mental ability. My brother is a employed certified engineer and I won't let him work on anything I own . So I don't expect the engineers at flir to do any better, especially with such low priced units. But I really enjoy the flir unit I have
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