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Posted: 12/20/2008 9:17:08 PM EDT
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I have an interesting problem I need to solve. We are suffering heavy damage from a large herd of elk. I have the green light from fish and wildlife to start shooting them at night. As long as the local liberal nieghbors and news papers don't figure out whats going on I may even be able to make a dent in the population. The easy answer is to spot light them. The problem is they will wise up fast enough that I won't be able to kill enough of them. Additionally there would be a good chance the tree huggers would figure out what I am doing. While all of this will be done legally, fish and wildlife does not want it to become a political mess.
My solution is a supressed AR, maybe a whisper, with night vision. My problem is the budget, or lack of one. Talk to me about Gen I, II and III for use inside 100 yards. What is the least expensive way to achieve my goal? I have no need or plan to use this for anything beyond damage control on the farm. All thoughts welcome.... |
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What specifically is the budget you don't have? For a target of that size you might actually be able to get by w/ a gen1 if your budget is indeed that tight. A PVS-2 just might be the ticket. They can be had for around $300ish and supposedly work quite well. If you can't get ahold of one of those, you could maybe try a Yukon NVRS w/ a good illuminator. However if your budget is upward of $1k then you should look into gen2. If not I would seriously consider a pvs-2.
Maybe here amerisurp On a side note, does the division of fish and wild life not have any NV to loan you? That would solve your problems for zero $$. |
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Along with your budget, you should say if the supressor needs to be included in your purchasing. If thats the case, you are looking at months for approval/tax stamp for the unit.
I've never hunted elk, but after you take a few at 100yds, I'd think your next shots would be from further out (?). |
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On a side note, does the division of fish and wild life not have any NV to loan you? That would solve your problems for zero $$. I would love to look through one of those gen I scopes. The price is right. Has anyone used one and can provide input? Are they GTG inside 100yd? F&W love the idea but have no resourses to contribute. They are trapping elk and relocating them 20 miles from here. Those elk are causing issues with autos when they cross the road. Our elk are 100% on private property so they have no motivation to extend resourses. |
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Along with your budget, you should say if the supressor needs to be included in your purchasing. If thats the case, you are looking at months for approval/tax stamp for the unit. I've never hunted elk, but after you take a few at 100yds, I'd think your next shots would be from further out (?). My budget is going to be <1k for optics. I know about the requirements to get a can. I would like to have this gun built by next fall. One thing I know about private property elk. If they don't see you or hear you they will not get antsy. Even if they smell you they will let thier eyes and ears override thier desire to flee. Not so much on elk that are on public property. |
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Along with your budget, you should say if the supressor needs to be included in your purchasing. If thats the case, you are looking at months for approval/tax stamp for the unit. I've never hunted elk, but after you take a few at 100yds, I'd think your next shots would be from further out (?). My budget is going to be <1k for optics. I know about the requirements to get a can. I would like to have this gun built by next fall. One thing I know about private property elk. If they don't see you or hear you they will not get antsy. Even if they smell you they will let thier eyes and ears override thier desire to flee. Not so much on elk that are on public property. I concur with the amerisurp link, or maybe a PVS-4 gen2. It is a huge jump in quality from gen1 to gen2. I also have a friend who was happy dealing with What a Country. They also sell the PVS-2. Again, I have never hunted elk, but I hope when you say AR, you mean a 308 or more. |
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If your keeping your shoots under 100 yards. You might think about a surpressed 308 shooting subsonic loads. That set up is amazingly quiet for a 308. If your budget is 1000 for optics. I'd spend a couple hundred more and get a gen II unit as a minimum. I've had a gen I unit before, and I really didn't feel it was effective out past 25 yards are so.
Just thinking out loud here. Another solution to your problem would be to invite some members here that already have the equipment out to the ranch to help you with your problem. That would be a hell of a trade off, if they could keep the meat. Hell, i'll volunteer myself for 1 trip to wherever your at.  I'm always looking for a reason to go night hunting somewhere.
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If your keeping your shoots under 100 yards. You might think about a surpressed 308 shooting subsonic loads. That set up is amazingly quiet for a 308. If your budget is 1000 for optics. I would go with a gen II unit as a minimum. I've had a gen I unit before, and I really didn't feel it was effective out past 25 yards are so. Just thinking out loud here. Another solution to your problem would be to invite some members here that already have the equipment out to the ranch to help you with your problem. That would be a hell of a trade off, if they could keep the meat. Hell, i'll volunteer myself for 1 trip to wherever your at.  I'm always looking for a reason to go night hunting somewhere.
On kill permits we don't get to keep the meat. It all goes to charities. We do have a rolling 5 tags for elk. Problem is they know the gig and are usually across the fence 5 mintues before shooting light. We have killed two this season and may be lucky enough to kill one or two more. My goal is to shoot 50 over the next couple of years. That number may sound high but it won't even put a dent in the population. This herd is 200+ animals. If someone has the set up and can commit to a period of time to shoot some elk I am all ears. The hard part is catching them when they are on the property. It is not an every night deal. Every month yes at some point in time. I just need to keep working on the build and building the budget. I'll research gen II scopes. |
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Ideally, you would pattern the herd's movements first. Then, set up with a spotter using thermal and/or NV, and a couple of shooters with suppressed weapons and NV.
My opinion is that for the operation to be humane, the shooters should have Gen3 and cartridges in the .308 range, or 6.8 SPC as a bare minimum; you sure don't want a bunch of wounded elk running around and eventually dying a slow miserable death due to insufficient terminal ballistics or poor shot placement. YMMV. |
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I would be more than glad to donate my time and my PVS-14 and SpecterIR thermal scope to assist you. I can leave today. Holy best vacation idea ever batman. Also, just noticed the whole suppressed AR thing. Will subsonic whisper (assuming 300 or so here guys NOT the 50 whisper  ) be enough to knock these suckers down? Will you be taking head shots or shooting into the conventional kill zone?
And I'd be VERY VERY willing to come bring my gear and "donate" to the cause if it weren't for travel and lodging costs. However my dream has always been to be able to severely upset hippies (PETA) doing what I love doing the most  I just graduated from a big ten school yesterday and have thoroughly had it with HIPPIES LOL.
End rant. |
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I've taken two elk w/ 300 mag while hunting in Colorado, both within 40 yards but both times it was horrible weather, the great equalizer, snow once and then drizzly fog another trip. They CAN be stalked to very close range, you just have to 1) be really good or 2) want it badly enough to get out there when sane people are by the fire sipping corn liquor!
But IMHO .223 is WAAAY too light, even at close range, unless you are uberman and get the KILLING headshot every time (I emphasize KILLING as there's nothing as sad as seeing game with a shot off mandible, hurting, sick and starving, THAT will make for some politics). And in my humble knowledge (I'm an FFL and used to be SOT-Class III dealer) you'll wait a long time for that suppressor transfer. On the cheap, wouldn't a Gen I with a big IR spotlight work well in conjunction with at least a .308? I have some IR filter glass that works pretty well on a 'q-beam' type rechargeable light though it does show a faint red glow. If they (the elk) wise up to it then maybe they'll go elsewhere and your problems are over. Whitetail aren't as spooky and are hard to 'run off', we've shot does in crops while their compatriots continued to eat, barely glancing up to see what all the bother was! If they (the hippies) wise up then play dumb, "What gunshot, what elk, HUH?", if they come traipsing across your place to look-see then have 'em locked up... By the way, hippie is very nice braised with a red-wine sauce, maybe with some sautéed (magic) mushrooms! Also, have you checked into the actual legality of using NV? Many states issue nuisance permits and even allow spotlighting but still restrict lasers, NV, FMJ ammo, electronic calls, bait/decoys, etc... For instance, with a permit you can spotlight a 'yote in the middle of the Alabama night but you better not kill him with hardball! |
| I'm not a tree hugger and have hunted my fair share of Elk. If it is private property, just put out an all call to hunters to come cull your herd? You could make money at this and in the mean time, not take any chances that some liberal anti-gun freak will find out, make the nightly news, and give the anti's any reason to start throwing NV gear and silenecers into the heap of things to be banned. Just my .02 cents worth, but this sounds like a disaster in the making. |
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Thanks for all the input.
A little more information. No elk will be shot with anything less than a 308 caliber weapon. NV is not an issue on these kill permits. Fish and Wildlife like the idea of using a supressed gun with NV. It will help reduce the potential for political fall out. As far as using equipment that is ideally suited for the purpose. There is no way I wouldn't use a supressed rifle with NV if it is available. The only way we can achieve our goals is to do it descreatly. As far as opening it up to a firing squad: That just won't work. Trying to get one person into range for a shot is difficult enough with 400 eyes and noses watching for you. trying to get multiple people in only reduces the chance that one person will be able to connect. Right now I have 5 people on rotation hunting every day of the week. We have still only been able to take two elk since the beginning of October. I appreciate everyines interest in "helping" cull the herd. As you can imagine timing is everything on this type of opperation. If you have never field dressed an elk I can tell you now, it is alot of work! The shooting part of this job is the smallest part. It will be interesting to see how this works out. Thanks. |
| If it needs to be done quickly then waiting for the transfer of a can is going to take to long. Put out a pile of feed, whatever feed will bring the elk in and set up a tree stand 20 yards from the pile. A Ruger 10/22 or a 22 mag with a decent scope coupled with a red light will do the trick. Use only solid 22 ammo as it will penetrate the skull better. Shoot the elk just below the ear if turned side ways, betwen the eyes if head on or directly in the back of the head if facing away and they are DOA on the spot. Make sure the gun is sighted in, that you have a solid rest and wait for the right shot!!!! If you do this over the course of a week the elk problem will be taken care of quickly. Yeah my method does not invlove fancy NV so the fun/cool factor is not there but the problem would be solved. Then you will have the time to pick the perfect set up for your budget and not be rushed. Good Hunting and if does not work just call the guys from Georgia who hunt hogs with thermal scopes and they will come to you and kill everything you need killed and probably for free. |
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Just a idea steming from ctm's train of thought.
Do you happen to bow hunt or do any of your hunters bow hunt? The reason i'm asking is that down here we use tripods quite a bit in South texas to hunt. Instead of using a 22 and having to make a ear hole shot. You could put a red light onto your bow and shoot them that way. Alot of my friends use a blue type light down here to shoot hogs that way. |
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Grendel 6.5, you can ask Mr Larue if it works on elk.
or scroll down midway link Having IR out past 100 yards is going to be the trick, gen II on a really bright moonlit night might get you that far, but I'd check with someone who has one before dropping the cash. Maybe Vic wants to come out your way and demo one of his d760's or some of his thermal goodness |
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Just curious where are you located and why do you need to shoot at night. Located in the Rogue Valley. The elk come down off private property after sunset. They leave prior to sun rise. We can only catch them in the orchard during shooting light if they mess up, usually due to weather. So basically night time is the the only time we can shoot them. |
. Mark your position with an IR beacon and sit back with some popcorn. They'll be gone in one night.
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