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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: I HIGHLY ADVISE you to take the documentation you have to your local LE Agency or the Agency where the package was sent from and file a report and have the firearm entered into NCIC as at least LOST/MISSING at this point. The status can later be amended to a criminal complaint if a case of theft is developed. While I personally would consider it a theft, based on the totality of things, other cops or agencies may not. BUT... what they can't deny is it is in fact LOST/MISSING... and NCIC allows for LOST/MISSING firearms. I filed the Theft/Loss report on 2/18. A copy was sent to ATF and the local Sheriff's dept. The NFA guy confirmed it is now recorded where it should be as lost, and was removed from my efile account - but they have it listed as I'm still the registered owner if its found and returned. According to him ATF never notified NFA about it being lost until he found out from me 4 days ago. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I filed the Theft/Loss report on 2/18. A copy was sent to ATF and the local Sheriff's dept. The NFA guy confirmed it is now recorded where it should be as lost, and was removed from my efile account - but they have it listed as I'm still the registered owner if its found and returned. According to him ATF never notified NFA about it being lost until he found out from me 4 days ago. Filed with WHO? What LE Agency? Did they make an NCIC entry? Do you have a REPORT NUMBER? ETA- IM me the serial number if you want me to see if it's entered. TO BE CLEAR... YOU NEED AN NCIC ENTRY OTHERWISE YOU'RE PISSING IN THE WIND. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I filed the Theft/Loss report on 2/18. A copy was sent to ATF and the local Sheriff's dept. Did your local sheriff’s office write an incident report on it? Do you have their local case #? Did they enter it into NCIC? |
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: Filed with WHO? What LE Agency? Did they make an NCIC entry? Do you have a REPORT NUMBER? ETA- IM me the serial number if you want me to see if it's entered. TO BE CLEAR... YOU NEED AN NCIC ENTRY OTHERWISE YOU'RE PISSING IN THE WIND. 058698 ATF INCIDENT NUMBER: I20260000384 Filed with the ATF and Wood County, OH Sheriff. They were supposed to make a NCIC entry. I have no idea if they did. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Ill follow up Monday and let you know what excuses I get. I've given you solid advice... follow it... take all your shit down to the local cop shop MONDAY and tell them you want a LOST/MISSING FIREARMS REPORT and a matching NCIC entry to go with it. Give them your supporting USPS documentation to show it's MIA. If a slick-sleeve cop tells you no, ask for a Sgt., if he tells you no, ask for a Lieutenant. I doubt it will come to that, they should know EXACTLY why you are there. Stop wasting your time with fucking incompetent assholes as it seems that's all you have been dealing with. Sorry to sound like a dick but damn, I have no skin in the game and it pisses me off... I can only imagine how you must feel. Just tell them ATF is aware and isn't doing JACK SHIT and you need an NCIC entry. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: 058698 ATF INCIDENT NUMBER: I20260000384 Filed with the ATF and Wood County, OH Sheriff. They were supposed to make a NCIC entry. I have no idea if they did. The LE involved should be the one where the firearm was last tracked to, not your local. A report needs to be filed with Detroit PD if you haven't already. |
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: The LE involved should be the one where the firearm was last tracked to, not your local. A report needs to be filed with Detroit PD if you haven't already. Our agency would take the report and make the entry if shipped within our jurisdiction as the victim in this case last had positive possession of the item in our jurisdiction. Tracking proves only that the package arrived, not the contents. Traveling to Detroit to make a report isn't reasonable and most agencies won't take a report over the telephone where an NCIC entry is going to be made. Like I said, the OP needs to go to the local cop shop where he shipped the package and file a report. The same agency can also do what's call an ASSISTING OTHER AGENCY REPORT (AOA) at the request of the OP to be forwarded to Detroit in the rare event the local agency tries to deny jurisdiction. ETA- my brother had to do this with his local Police Department after he PCS'ed from Texas to Virginia when discovered he had firearms stolen in Texas. The Virginia cop tried to tell my brother he had to go back to Texas and file a report, I called the agency and spoke to a Supervisor who corrected the problem. Expecting people to travel great distances to file a report for something discovered after the fact isn't reasonable so that's why AOA reports exist. |
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Originally Posted By HansohnBrothers: The LE involved should be the one where the firearm was last tracked to, not your local. A report needs to be filed with Detroit PD if you haven't already. I called the Allen Park PD last week and and they said they wont do anything until the ATF or my local PD reaches out to them first. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By harleytech: I love how you have a missing Machine gun and the Law keeps passing the buck between them. Nobody wants to get the so called ball rolling and start investigating... Jeez.. Nobody gives a shit. When it ends up in Dearborn, MI and is used to shoot up a school bus full of kids I'm going have one hell of a story for the press. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By harleytech: I love how you have a missing Machine gun and the Law keeps passing the buck between them. Nobody wants to get the so called ball rolling and start investigating... Jeez.. All too normal. I dealt with it here in WI when I was a SOT. Straw purchase attempts at a gun show? Nobody cared. Two years later, I’m watching the evening news and guess whose face I recognized from a report about shooting at cops..? |
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: I've given you solid advice... follow it... take all your shit down to the local cop shop MONDAY and tell them you want a LOST/MISSING FIREARMS REPORT and a matching NCIC entry to go with it. Give them your supporting USPS documentation to show it's MIA. If a slick-sleeve cop tells you no, ask for a Sgt., if he tells you no, ask for a Lieutenant. I doubt it will come to that, they should know EXACTLY why you are there. As expected, when I walked in to the Sheriff's Dept at 8AM they told me there was nothing they could do about it. I asked nice and they agreed to send a Deputy to my shop to take a report. The report has been submitted. I was told they'll turn it over to a detective. I'm not going to hold my breath as whether or not I get a follow up from a Detective. Fingers Crossed. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: As expected, when I walked in to the Sheriff's Dept at 8AM they told me there was nothing they could do about it. I asked nice and they agreed to send a Deputy to my shop to take a report. The report has been submitted. I was told they'll turn it over to a detective. I'm not going to hold my breath as whether or not I get a follow up from a Detective. Fingers Crossed. I get it there is only so much you can do, but I think it’s at the point now where you jump the chain of command and become a pain in the ass. The other poster who is LE in here is right. Any news from USPS about the insurance claim? You would imagine the postmaster would be shitting bricks about not only a machine gun being lost but a 25k one in the wind? It’s kinda mind blowing the postmaster isn’t more help. My local guy is excellent, but I can only imagine the postmaster in Detroit.  It pisses me off and I’m just some stranger in Utah. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: As expected, when I walked in to the Sheriff's Dept at 8AM they told me there was nothing they could do about it. I asked nice and they agreed to send a Deputy to my shop to take a report. The report has been submitted. I was told they'll turn it over to a detective. I'm not going to hold my breath as whether or not I get a follow up from a Detective. Fingers Crossed. If it were me, the number one thing I'd want from my local agency is an NCIC entry. There's no way they have the time and resources to properly investigate your case... that's what the PO LE folks are supposed to do. I assume at least at this point an entry into the NCIC data base has been made? ETA- give it a few days then call the Sheriff's Office and ask for the Investigations Division. Give them the case number and ask to speak to the Detective the case has been assigned to. When you get that guy or gal on the phone ask these two questions: 1. Has my firearm been entered into NCIC, and if so, can you at least have the NIC Number (that's the record entry number)? 2. Are you at least going to Subpoena the transaction records from the USPS to show the actual chain of custody of my firearm up to the point it went MIA? It sucks donkey balls but many citizens don't realize the system victimizes you twice... once at the onset of your case, and again due to the time and money required to do a deep into the weeds investigation. Unfortunately... money is in fact a determining factor as to what cases get attention and how much of it. Not to make excuses... but every Monday morning a guy goes by a Detective's desk and drops off a stack of active cases... they pile up very quickly... some can be worked, others are simply dead end black holes. Like it or not, that's just a fact of modern day LE and investigations. |
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Originally Posted By Justinandfreyja: I get it there is only so much you can do, but I think it’s at the point now where you jump the chain of command and become a pain in the ass. The other poster who is LE in here is right. Any news from USPS about the insurance claim? You would imagine the postmaster would be shitting bricks about not only a machine gun being lost but a 25k one in the wind? It’s kinda mind blowing the postmaster isn’t more help. My local guy is excellent, but I can only imagine the postmaster in Detroit. It pisses me off and I’m just some stranger in Utah. The postmaster where the MG was stolen from is shitting bricks trying to cover their ass. They KNOW someone there FUCKED UP. They know its gone, but still wont admit it. Hopefully the Sheriff will follow through with the PD up there and someone with a badge of some kind will make USPS admit it's gone. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: I assume at least at this point an entry into the NCIC data base has been made? I specifically requested that. If you get a chance this afternoon can you check that SN again? |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I specifically requested that. If you get a chance this afternoon can you check that SN again? I'll be back to work on Wednesday. Last time I looked for you I actually had someone else do it and NCIC returned multiple records that required reading through to see if one was yours. You serial number is what's called a NON-UNIQUE number and other firearms out there may very well have the same basic number. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: The postmaster where the MG was stolen from is shitting bricks trying to cover their ass. They KNOW someone there FUCKED UP. They know its gone, but still wont admit it. Sounds like what I posted happened... the secured locker/room was left unlocked... a bunch of finger pointing going on at that Postal Facility. |
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Originally Posted By Bowhntr6pt: Your serial number is what's called a NON-UNIQUE number and other firearms out there may very well have the same basic number. If they enter it correctly (which is rare) it should list the Make (MAK) code for the manufacturer like: IMI GRP (if Group Industries) Type (TYP) code should be B or BA indicating SMG. If you can verify the sheriff’s office got it entered correctly, that’d be a big step in the right direction. Yes, definitely ask them for the NIC#. (It’ll start with a G) If you are able to reach a super-helpful detective, you may want to ask about the possibility of them requesting an “offline search” on the serial number. This is something they’d have to call NCIC in WV about, but it’ll show them a list of everyone at any LE agency who ran that serial number, and when, so they may be able to use that data to identify which federal LE (if any) has encountered the firearm (or may be in possession of it). Edit: Correct terminology is “off-line search” and I found a random form, but haven’t seen a standardized FBI form. They told us during training to just contact the Investigative and Operational Assistance Unit (IOAU) in WV by calling (304) 625-3000, sending an NLETS administrative message to DCFBIWAQ9, or emailing [email protected] Edit 2: Today I learned that some agencies (depending on whether their state allows it or not) can query the above themselves using NCIC transaction “QQ” (for Query-Query) however it only looks back 30 days (which would of course be plenty in this case). |
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Years ago I shipped a handmade Scottish dirk back to Scotland, bought the best shipping USPS could provide and also bought insurance. They estimated it would take a week or two to arrive. After three weeks I went to the post office and asked them to check status. I had my original receipt showing the item number and insurance. The post office clerk couldn't find any information on my item. So knowing that time is limited to file for lost item and insurance, I said I wanted to file a loss claim. The clerk said they don't insure international items, and I referred him to the line on my receipt showing that indeed they DID sell me insurance...he said they shouldn't have sold the insurance, and I said "well that is a problem because they INDEED sold me insurance and I want to make a claim". The postmaster came out and spoke with me. The postmaster was very civilized and he also told me that they shouldn't have sold the insurance, but he admitted it certainly was on my receipt. I requested and received the claim form and took it home to fill out. The next day the person receiving the item let me know it had arrived. I returned to the post office with my receipt and spoke with the postmaster and said if they shouldn't have sold the insurance, I would like a refund...I got the refund. |
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Not to be a dick (still reading on page 2), but you're in Ohio. Seems an 8 hr road trip would have avoided this. After your last debacle I'm suprised you mail anything of high value! Or is it still in transit to a different state and stuck in Detroit? |
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Originally Posted By NotIssued: Not to be a dick (still reading on page 2), but you're in Ohio. Seems an 8 hr road trip would have avoided this. After your last debacle I'm suprised you mail anything of high value! Or is it still in transit to a different state and stuck in Detroit? It was shipped to a dealer in Sarasota, FL. Disappeared in transit at the Detroit USPS center. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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I received a call back form a voice mail I left from a helpful lady in the claims adjudication dept. She said my additional supporting documentation was "substantial". She went on to say only a manager can approve a claim of this value so she forwarded it along to him. I suspect the manager will deny the claim because according to USPS, "they are still looking for it". Supporting docs I submitted if you're wondering. Another copy of the sales receipt in the form of a screen shot from my POS, since they didn't like the store receipt. A copy of the 1974 form 5 along with the 2025 Form 5 and the 2026 Form 3 all listing the serial number along with a copy of the letter from NFA stating it was transferable. **I sold 2 of these newly transferable UZI's that same week. I sent a copy of the listing on Sturm I sent a copy of the sales receipt from one that was delivered to Arizona along with a copy of the Registered label/tracking and insurance for the one that made it. That buyer also did me a solid and sent a statement that he bought one of the listed UZIs off Sturm for $25K, and it was received as advertised as new with provenance. I submitted that statement as well. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I received a call back form a voice mail I left from a helpful lady in the claims adjudication dept. She said my additional supporting documentation was "substantial". She went on to say only a manager can approve a claim of this value so she forwarded it along to him. I suspect the manager will deny the claim because according to USPS, "they are still looking for it". Supporting docs I submitted if you're wondering. Another copy of the sales receipt in the form of a screen shot from my POS, since they didn't like the store receipt. A copy of the 1974 form 5 along with the 2025 Form 5 and the 2026 Form 3 all listing the serial number along with a copy of the letter from NFA stating it was transferable. **I sold 2 of these newly transferable UZI's that same week. I sent a copy of the listing on Sturm I sent a copy of the sales receipt from one that was delivered to Arizona along with a copy of the Registered label/tracking and insurance for the one that made it. That buyer also did me a solid and sent a statement that he bought one of the listed UZIs off Sturm for $25K, and it was received as advertised as new with provenance. I submitted that statement as well. JFC, what a debacle. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: It was shipped to a dealer in Sarasota, FL. Disappeared in transit at the Detroit USPS center. Gotcha. Thx. Shipping makes much more sense now. I retract my statement. But hey, if you need a courier, I like to travel and have lots of free time 
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Originally Posted By harleytech: I love how you have a missing Machine gun and the Law keeps passing the buck between them. Nobody wants to get the so called ball rolling and start investigating... Jeez..  |
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Originally Posted By Pennsilfaanisch: Maybe it's time to feed the story to the local news? I know we all hate the media, but a story like a missing machine gun that was lost/stolen by USPS could make a lot of people look bad and finally get them off their asses. As mentioned above, I already did that. But, filing the police report this week should get picked up by the local paper in the police blotter. Maybe the report titled "Stolen UZI Submachinegun" will get some attention. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: And after all that they denied the claim a second time. I have to wait and see what their excuse is this time. Good grief |
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Non Solis radios sed Iovis fulmina mitto
Non Solis radios sed Iovis fulmina mitto
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Originally Posted By bigbore: And after all that they denied the claim a second time. I have to wait and see what their excuse is this time. Seems pretty straight forward , they sold you insurance , they accepted your payment for them to transport and deliver an expensive item that they failed to do. Deliver the item , return the item or pay the insured value. When you buy insurance they are asking you the value you are putting on it and paying for that value. When its turned over to them then lost / stolen they should be required to pay what they agreed to. NOT a fan of USPS and I returned something that had to be mailed out of the USA and everything the local USPS told me and sold me was wrong. They lost the item , claimed it was not insured and since they agreed it was lost they never return the shipping cost. USPS could steal or toss your item in the trash and there is limited recourse what an outside person can do to them. In my case when I used PayPal they made it right since the tracking number shows it shipped but never delivered. When its USPS responsible they truly do not care. I really hope the gun turns up but I also hope you can stick it up the USPS ass and break it off. |
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In my limited experience dealing with the .gov, they don’t take you serious unless you have a lawyer. After retaining a lawyer, they suddenly gave a shit and did their job. |
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In the private world, if an insurance company fails to pay out appropriately and loses in court, they are liable for up to treble damages as I recall, so maybe $75K in this case. It helps motivate them a bit to not roll the dice and stiff an honest client. Probably some exception for postal insurance or some overarching federal exemption, but who knows. |
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Originally Posted By vellnueve: At a certain point call your congressman and senator and do a congressional on them. Came here to post this. Your Congressman's local office will have a process for submitting your request - usually, it's an online form to which you attach supporting documents. Call their office and the nice lady will walk you through the process. Assisting constituents in dealing with .gov agencies is literally the one metric that all members of Congress care about, other than fundraising. Take advantage of it. |
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Originally Posted By erichard: In the private world, if an insurance company fails to pay out appropriately and loses in court, they are liable for up to treble damages as I recall, so maybe $75K in this case. It helps motivate them a bit to not roll the dice and stiff an honest client. Probably some exception for postal insurance or some overarching federal exemption, but who knows. the United States Postal Service (USPS) possesses federal sovereign immunity under the "postal exception" of the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), 28 U.S.C. § 2680(b). |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By flcracker: Came here to post this. Your Congressman's local office will have a process for submitting your request - usually, it's an online form to which you attach supporting documents. Call their office and the nice lady will walk you through the process. Assisting constituents in dealing with .gov agencies is literally the one metric that all members of Congress care about, other than fundraising. Take advantage of it. Neither of you guys read past page one did you? My congress critters have been involved since page 2. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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I got more info on the claim denials in regard to my proving the value of the item. I'm not being denied because I cant prove the stolen UZI isn't worth $25K, I'm being denied because I cant prove the person I sold it to paid me $25K. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I got more info on the claim denials in regard to my proving the value of the item. I'm not being denied because I cant prove the stolen UZI isn't worth $25K, I'm being denied because I cant prove the person I sold it to paid me $25K. Isn't that what your sales invoice and letter from the buyer was for? |
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Originally Posted By tweiss3: Isn't that what your sales invoice and letter from the buyer was for? I have all that, I gave them a copy of the receipt. I have the sale in my books reported as income. I just cant prove to the post office that that money was used to pay for the stolen UZI. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I have all that, I gave them a copy of the receipt. I have the sale in my books reported as income. I just cant prove to the post office that that money was used to pay for the stolen UZI. Idk what else they’d want to see for proof. Did they say? Would there already be a FinCEN report generated for that transaction? Perhaps you could send them a copy of that? |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I got more info on the claim denials in regard to my proving the value of the item. I'm not being denied because I cant prove the stolen UZI isn't worth $25K, I'm being denied because I cant prove the person I sold it to paid me $25K. I have a feeling this is going to take a lawsuit. 
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Originally Posted By KitBuilder: How did your buyer pay? Idk what else they’d want to see for proof. Did they say? Would there already be a FinCEN report generated for that transaction? Perhaps you could send them a copy of that? The buyer paid with none of your business. I and another adult entered into a voluntary contract free of coercion that involved an exchange that is of no harm or interest to anyone else! And maybe he shipped me a small package with 5 round gold things that had an eagle stamped on one side and chick in a dress on the other. My claims are being denied because the dated receipt I sent them lists cash as the method of payment. They will deny every claim for an item that was paid for with cash is what I was told by the lady in the adjudicators office. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By GlutealCleft: I have a feeling this is going to take a lawsuit. I started looking for federal that practices FTCA law. Legal fees may be close to as much as the claim. Need to ask if I can sue for legal fees as well. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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