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Originally Posted By bigbore: the United States Postal Service (USPS) possesses federal sovereign immunity under the "postal exception" of the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), 28 U.S.C. § 2680(b). Originally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By erichard: In the private world, if an insurance company fails to pay out appropriately and loses in court, they are liable for up to treble damages as I recall, so maybe $75K in this case. It helps motivate them a bit to not roll the dice and stiff an honest client. Probably some exception for postal insurance or some overarching federal exemption, but who knows. the United States Postal Service (USPS) possesses federal sovereign immunity under the "postal exception" of the Federal Tort Claims Act (FTCA), 28 U.S.C. § 2680(b). Correct. You can’t sue the king (sovereign immunity). Unfortunately getting money out of the government is nearly impossible unless you can prove actual malice, extreme negligence, or that an agent of the government acted well outside his authority while under color of authority. I wish you luck. I sent a H&K mk23 registered mail once and it disappeared for a month in Louisiana. I was headed down the road you’re on (for a much lower amount obviously) when all of a sudden it just appeared near its destination in Arizona. Hopefully something like that happens with this. |
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Originally Posted By Damocles1971: A number of years ago I sent my brother a check via registered mail as a gift when he got married. Sent from WY to CT, the check went MIA in Chicago, had to cancel and resend. Was a big PITA. Also at Christmas time every year, my wife's family in Ireland sends us cards with cash even though we tell them not to. We eventually get cards that are ripped open. The USPS is a wretched hive of scum and villainy. I was sending my college ring back to the manufacturer via FedEx, luckily I had $1,000 insurance on it because it was stolen when it got to Texas before it was delivered. Apparently FedEx isn't any better |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: The buyer paid with none of your business. I and another adult entered into a voluntary contract free of coercion that involved an exchange that is of no harm or interest to anyone else!  And maybe he shipped me a small package with 5 round gold things that had an eagle stamped on one side and chick in a dress on the other. My claims are being denied because the dated receipt I sent them lists cash as the method of payment. They will deny every claim for an item that was paid for with cash is what I was told by the lady in the adjudicators office. Originally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By KitBuilder: How did your buyer pay? Idk what else they'd want to see for proof. Did they say? Would there already be a FinCEN report generated for that transaction? Perhaps you could send them a copy of that? The buyer paid with none of your business. I and another adult entered into a voluntary contract free of coercion that involved an exchange that is of no harm or interest to anyone else! And maybe he shipped me a small package with 5 round gold things that had an eagle stamped on one side and chick in a dress on the other. My claims are being denied because the dated receipt I sent them lists cash as the method of payment. They will deny every claim for an item that was paid for with cash is what I was told by the lady in the adjudicators office. |
You must play the game. You can't win. You can't break even. You can't quit the game.
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Originally Posted By jhereg: I don't see how it should matter how he paid for it or if he paid for it. It's an UZI. It's worth what it's worth. Shouldn't matter if it wanted a vacation and you mailed it to yourself or if you mailed it someplace for work. If everything is legal and they lost your property and you insured it w/ insurance they sold you they should have to cough up the insurance money. It's theft. If you were my best friend who I sold it to for $5K, and it was lost but insured it for $30K someone should be paying out the $30K value, not the price paid. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: It's theft. If you were my best friend who I sold it to for $5K, and it was lost but insured it for $30K someone should be paying out the $30K value, not the price paid. Originally Posted By bigbore: Originally Posted By jhereg: I don't see how it should matter how he paid for it or if he paid for it. It's an UZI. It's worth what it's worth. Shouldn't matter if it wanted a vacation and you mailed it to yourself or if you mailed it someplace for work. If everything is legal and they lost your property and you insured it w/ insurance they sold you they should have to cough up the insurance money. It's theft. If you were my best friend who I sold it to for $5K, and it was lost but insured it for $30K someone should be paying out the $30K value, not the price paid. |
You must play the game. You can't win. You can't break even. You can't quit the game.
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Originally Posted By jhereg: Sure. I understand that but if the value of it is valid it shouldn't matter how they paid you. The price is the price. What would be their response if you had shipped it someplace for a repair or upgrade? Let's say it was a transferable M16 I bought in 2006 for $10K. They would want a copy of the receipt and refund me the price I paid. Their definition of "acceptable proof of value" is not reasonable. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: My claims are being denied because Just like UHC will deny coverage of medically necessary treatment. Because neither makes money by shelling out money, and if they say "no" enough you might go away. What are you going to do, sue? They have immunity. If you cannot sue even when they intentionally misdeliver or withhold mail [url=https://www.scotusblog.com/2026/02/court-holds-that-u-s-postal-service-cant-be-sued-over-intentionally-misdelivered-mail/], I wonder how a civil dispute regarding their insurance requirements will turn out?  |
Men occasionally stumble over the truth, but most of them pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing had happened.
W. Churchill
Hold my donut and watch this!
W. Churchill
Hold my donut and watch this!
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Stuff like this is why many Americans despise working with Federal and State bureaucracy. It's much too easy for agencies to pass the buck off to someone else and run an individual around until they give up or run out of money. What's infuriating in this case is it's a missing machine gun and the Feds don't seem to give a crap. (note; I don't think ups or fedex are a damn bit better anymore) |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Let's say it was a transferable M16 I bought in 2006 for $10K. They would want a copy of the receipt and refund me the price I paid. Their definition of "acceptable proof of value" is not reasonable. That sounds like pure fuckery. Is that what the terms of the insurance agreement actually state? I know a guy who paid $500 for his M16 before the FOPA86. It doesn't seem plausible that if he insured it for today's value, he would only be able to collect the original purchase price. How would this work if you insured a rare collectable postage stamp that was worth $10K - would you just get the face value back? I'm so very sorry that you're going their this, but it is certainly a learning experience for the rest of us. Thank you for sharing your ordeal. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: If you were my best friend who I sold it to for $5K, and it was lost but insured it for $30K someone should be paying out the $30K value, not the price paid. ... Let's say it was a transferable M16 I bought in 2006 for $10K. They would want a copy of the receipt and refund me the price I paid. Their definition of "acceptable proof of value" is not reasonable. In both those examples you would need to provide a reputable dealer's estimate. No, you cannot be your own reputable dealer for valuation purposes Did you sent them a sales invoice for more than the purchaser actually paid? That would be fraud |
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Originally Posted By scottr: That's not how postal insurance works. That's not how any of this works In both those examples you would need to provide a reputable dealer's estimate. No, you cannot be your own reputable dealer for valuation purposes Did you sent them a sales invoice for more than the purchaser actually paid? That would be fraud I sent them 2 sales receipts for the 2 UZIs I sold for $25K each. The buyer of the UZI that was delivered is a dealer. He sent me a statement that he paid $25K and the UZI arrived in as new condition with full provenance and was worth $25K. That was included in the first appeal paperwork that was denied. The only fraud happening is the USPS selling me $25K of insurance and not delivering on what they sold me. The only one acting in bad faith is the USPS. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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I know shipping options are limited with firearms. But im not sure UPS of FedEx are much better on large items. Ive shipped alot of expensive stuff through all 3, and I see horror stories online about all of them. I'm not sure if any of them will stand by their insurance claims. Like fedex carefully words theirs to exclude the word insurance. Its just "declared value coverage". I believe they leave some legal gaps to allow them to say no if they dont feel like paying out. I honestly think theres a market for a carrier that focuses on higher dollar items providing secure and properly insured services. Especially firearms. If anyone wants to start a business. |
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Originally Posted By FoxValleyTacDriver: I know shipping options are limited with firearms. But im not sure UPS of FedEx are much better on large items. Ive shipped alot of expensive stuff through all 3, and I see horror stories online about all of them. I'm not sure if any of them will stand by their insurance claims. Like fedex carefully words theirs to exclude the word insurance. Its just "declared value coverage". I believe they leave some legal gaps to allow them to say no if they dont feel like paying out. I honestly think theres a market for a carrier that focuses on higher dollar items providing secure and properly insured services. Especially firearms. If anyone wants to start a business. USPS and FEDEX have a no machine gun policy. USPS Registered is the only "available" way to ship a machine gun with insurance. I have a Tommy Gun I need to ship out soon. I'm wondering if sending it UPS overnight with no insurance is the way to go? On paper USPS Registered is best, but in practice the "everyone who handles it signs for it and it's locked in a cage" isn't true. I do now know how the USPS insurance game is played, so I will be better prepared if another registered pkg goes missing. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: I sent them 2 sales receipts for the 2 UZIs I sold for $25K each. The buyer of the UZI that was delivered is a dealer. He sent me a statement that he paid $25K and the UZI arrived in as new condition with full provenance and was worth $25K. That was included in the first appeal paperwork that was denied. The only fraud happening is the USPS selling me $25K of insurance and not delivering on what they sold me. The only one acting in bad faith is the USPS. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: If you were my best friend who I sold it to for $5K, and it was lost but insured it for $30K someone should be paying out the $30K value, not the price paid. Insuring something for more than its market/replacement value is insurance fraud. In this example, assuming that the general market value is $30K, you'd have to provide a ton of evidence that it's actually worth $30K and you'd likely still lose. It's hard to surmount the actual price paid. Additionally, if you did sell a $30K to a friend for $5K, you'd have to deduct $25K from your federal gift exemption or he'd have to claim $25K in additional income. The IRS has got to get its cut. |
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Originally Posted By scottr: Why can you not provide proof of payment for the second uzi? How I prove gold coins came from someone? I have the tracking from the registered mail package which contained the payment going from his post office to mine, which I'm sending with my next appeal. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
| So as an example, an antique collector buys a high end watch made out of gold in a garage sale for $10. Re-sells it on eBay for $25K. Prices for a vintage watch of that type are all over the place - but around $10k so if "lost" but insured for $25K, it would be refused? |
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Originally Posted By cherenkov: So as an example, an antique collector buys a high end watch made out of gold in a garage sale for $10. Re-sells it on eBay for $25K. Prices for a vintage watch of that type are all over the place - but around $10k so if "lost" but insured for $25K, it would be refused? If he could prove the buyer paid $25K, he'd get his money. If he was sending it to his grandson for graduation he'd be fucked. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: How I prove gold coins came from someone? I have the tracking from the registered mail package which contained the payment going from his post office to mine, which I'm sending with my next appeal. Maybe send them your correspondence with the pirate showing the agreed upon number of doubloons he's giving you for the uzi. If he sent them by registered mail and insured them for $25k also I'd say that's pretty good evidence |
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I had 2 checks ($32k and $14K) stolen from the post office. My customer sent the checks via the post office. His admin brought them to the PO. My postal service member brings our mail into the building, gives it to my admin and uses our BR. Customer calls me up and says he got an unusual activity report from his bank and put a stop payment. I got the guys name and address who tried to cash them. I tried reporting it to the local PD who said it wasn't their jurisdiction. I put in a complaint to the Inspector General and never heard a word back. |
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Anytime I have shipped anything of significant value, I have always used FedEx Custom Critical or UPS Express Critical. I had to send a physical check that neared 7 figures once and the person who picked it up from me, physically delivered it in Europe. I have also used this service to have a prototype shipped from Chicago to Kuala Lumpur. Similar thing, the guy who picked it up, hand delivered it. |
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Let's say it was a transferable M16 I bought in 2006 for $10K. They would want a copy of the receipt and refund me the price I paid. Their definition of "acceptable proof of value" is not reasonable. Use bullion in your argument. “I bought 200 dollars Of Bullion in 1900, it is worth clearly more Than 200 today” |
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Its obviously a bunch of bullshit from USPS. If I was an insurer and someone said I want to buy insurance for this item for $25,000 I would probably seek to confirm worth. But the time to do that is BEFORE collecting the fee for insurance, not when a claim is filed. Instead USPS just collects the money and says fuck you we investigated ourselves and found us victorius. Sure someone is gonna say, thats not how it works. Whatever. State your insurance terms. Pay the claim if it fits the terms. Need a third party for large claims. They fuck you in the drive through... |
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Originally Posted By SSeric02: Would screenshotting comparable online sales go anywhere to show the value of the lost Uzi? Nope. I sent them screen shots of the public listing I sold it for and they said no. I sent them a statement from another buyer and they said no. I spoke with my congressman again yesterday (his staff has been a lot of help). If I can prove what I paid for it (I can) they will pay me that much. Fuck all that. It was insured for what I sold it for. With the pressure from the congress I expect the USPS to accept the cashed refund check I sent my customer to be acceptable proof of value. We'll see. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: Nope. I sent them screen shots of the public listing I sold it for and they said no. I sent them a statement from another buyer and they said no. I spoke with my congressman again yesterday (his staff has been a lot of help). If I can prove what I paid for it (I can) they will pay me that much. Fuck all that. It was insured for what I sold it for. With the pressure from the congress I expect the USPS to accept the cashed refund check I sent my customer to be acceptable proof of value. We'll see. I got fucked one time, but it was just a barrel sold on Ebay. USPS wouldn't cover the insured price, just the $100 standard. It finally turned up and some asshat in Louisiana made out with a free barrel. Between all the hours on the phone and emails sent back and forth with USPS, I guess I got lucky to get that. May fucks be upon the "buyer" for giving me such a hard time via Ebay and then shafting me on the payment. Fuck EBay too while we're at it. 25G is a hard pill to swallow and I hope your Congressman can help you out. |
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The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives confirmed that, in the most recent case, the gun used in the incident was stolen while being transported between facilities. The ATF says one gun was stolen while a fed ex shipment was being transported from one gun store to another. They couldn't tell us where or when. Stolen FedEx-shipped gun used by teen in Coolidge Park shooting, ATF confirms |
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Originally Posted By Nexttime: The Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives confirmed that, in the most recent case, the gun used in the incident was stolen while being transported between facilities. The ATF says one gun was stolen while a fed ex shipment was being transported from one gun store to another. They couldn't tell us where or when. Stolen FedEx-shipped gun used by teen in Coolidge Park shooting, ATF confirms I expect my UZI to end up on the news as well. While I'm here, an update as of 3/24 So far I have received zero info from the USPS zero info from the USPS Inspectors zero info from the USPS OIG zero info from the ATF and my insurance claim is still being denied. |
I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
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Originally Posted By bigbore: My agent said he didnt think so, but he's looking into it.
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On going to war over religion: "You're basically killing each other to see who's got the better imaginary friend." - Richard Jeni
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USPS has been running a TV commercial quite a bit on several networks talking about how trustworthy and reliable they are. For anyone who's actually had to deal with them, like this thread, it's cringeworthy. Click To View Spoiler |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
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I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: USPS has been running a TV commercial quite a bit on several networks talking about how trustworthy and reliable they are. For anyone who's actually had to deal with them, like this thread, it's cringeworthy. Click To View Spoiler That is so far from the reality of dealing with USPS…….how out of touch can they be. |
“ Well, it feels like someone took a rubber band and snapped it right on the edge of your anus.” -JThompson
Non Solis radios sed Iovis fulmina mitto
Non Solis radios sed Iovis fulmina mitto
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Originally Posted By Sierra5: That is so far from the reality of dealing with USPS…….how out of touch can they be. I just got this, and cant stop laughing at the very idea of the question they are asking about my satisfaction with their denial... 
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I'm no good at telling people what they want to hear when I dont believe it myself :)
| I know that USPS has issues... FedEx and UPS have issues... just more symptoms of civilizational decline. Like voting, high-trust systems and processes are failing due to rampant corrupt/criminal behavior that isn't corrected. |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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With all the shit you’ve been through… lawsuits, lost guns, legal hell…. Do you ever wish you became a plumber or something? |
What is a democrat? Someone who wants everything you have, except for your job.
Politicians should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we could see their corporate sponsors.
Politicians should wear uniforms like NASCAR drivers so we could see their corporate sponsors.
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: I know that USPS has issues... FedEx and UPS have issues... just more symptoms of civilizational decline. Like voting, high-trust systems and processes are failing due to rampant corrupt/criminal behavior that isn't corrected. Sorry for you huge loss OP, I hope it works out ok. This is exactly how I feel. Anytime I order anything expensive these days I always worry that it will actually show up, and if it does that it's not broken or destroyed. |
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This is the federal government. They could make you whole for a lot less than $25,000. They almost certainly have a suitable Uzi sitting in an armory somewhere just waiting for its day with a smelter, or they could acquire one at a pretty minimal cost, then just wave the magic wand over the paperwork. ETA: This one is probably sitting at Quantico somewhere. Attached File Attached File |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
USAF (Ret) 2003-2024
Joined:
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: This is the federal government. They could make you whole for a lot less than $25,000. They almost certainly have a suitable Uzi sitting in an armory somewhere just waiting for its day with a smelter, or they could acquire one at a pretty minimal cost, then just wave the magic wand over the paperwork. That would involve doing the right thing though. When was the last time the USG actually did that? |
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Originally Posted By Gamma762: This is the federal government. They could make you whole for a lot less than $25,000. They almost certainly have a suitable Uzi sitting in an armory somewhere just waiting for its day with a smelter, or they could acquire one at a pretty minimal cost, then just wave the magic wand over the paperwork. That would be the right thing for the entire country, too. Since removing the lost uzi from the registry affects available supply of transferrables, it theoretically increases the value of every other uzi, increasing prices for everyone due to government mistakes. |
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Originally Posted By hawkin: I would be in prison for murdering the person denying the claim. Just saying. There's probably a reason for the phrase "going postal" to be a phrase. Just saying. |
This is...a clue - Pat_Rogers
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
I'm not adequately aluminumized for this thread. - gonzo_beyondo
CO, MI, OR - Please lobby your legislators to end discrimination against non-resident CCW permit holders
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