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Posted: 8/16/2017 7:25:35 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
Hello. I am buying a machine gun from an Individual in another State and am preparing the Form4 from the Individual Seller (Transferor) to my Dealer (Transferee). I have read the Form4 instructions a few times and cannot find the answers. I must be a dunderhead.... My Dealer is an LLC if that matters (don't think so but who knows). 1. Does the page2 line 12 LEO info need to be entered? Doesn't seem like it should since the Transferee is a Dealer, but instr are silent. Yes 2. Does the Seller need to send the CLEO copy to the Sheriff in the Transferee's location (my Dealer location)? Doesn't seem like it but instr are silent. No, the transferee does. 4. Does the Transferee (my Dealer) need to complete page2 lines 14-17? Incredibly the instructions are silent as to licensees. No. 5. Does the Transferee (my Dealer) need to sign the Certification at bottom of page 2? Yes 6. How should I complete lines 18 and 19 on page3 for number of and names of Responsible Persons? I was thinking I should type in "Zero" for line 18 and "N/A" for line 19. The instructions Definitions indicate that a licensee (Dealer) is not a responsible person. N/A The instructions are a tough read, but most of the answers were in there. If your dealer is not filling this form out for you, get another dealer. Your problems are just beginning. |
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Posted: 8/16/2017 7:39:51 PM EDT
[#2]
Thank you sir. I will go back and find these answers in the instructions as a way to pay for your good advise. I have done many Form4s but this is my first post 41P indiv to dealer. Its always nerve-racking doing the first one.
Thanks again! |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 8:14:13 AM EDT
[#3]
Seller is in state A with item on form 4
You are in state B Wouldn't seller do a Form 4 to ffl with SOT in state A Ffl in a form 3 to ffl with sot in state B Ffl in state B form 4 to you ----------------- You are trying to seller in A f4 to ffl in b B to f4 to you I didn't think seller could form 4 to a ffl/sot in another state??? |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 8:16:52 AM EDT
[#4]
That being said , the ffl should help with forms, you are paying them for the legal paperwork and storage until approval
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Posted: 8/17/2017 8:51:23 AM EDT
[#5]
^while I suppose you could do it that way Coble, thats not how folks do it accross state lines. That would be 3 transfers total. The way I describe it is how everyone does an out of state transfer from an Individual, so long as the receiving FFL/SOT is okay receiving from an Individual (his preference/choice).
As far as my FFL doing the paperwork, I prefer doing it myself. Ive seen some real screw ups by FFLs. Typos, misspellings, bad handwriting, dropping the ball not mailing stuff out, etc. I have no problem doing them myself, I've done many. I just needed help on these few questions as its my first Indiv to Dealer with the new Form4. The new instructions are geared toward describing the typical Dealer to Indiv transfers. There is very little explicit instructions for the Indiv to Dealer transfers. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:04:30 AM EDT
[#6]
Seller or seller's dealer does first F4 to his dealer. Buyer does his own F4 once the first clears.
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Posted: 8/17/2017 11:50:59 AM EDT
[#7]
The way some of the posts above are written might give some readers the impression that certain parties or FFL's are REQUIRED to prepare certain paperwork. That would be incorrect. However I understand and respect the fact there are differing OPINIONS on who should be the one preparing certain forms.
To be clear...there is no requirement on who is required to prepare any form. If an out-of-state Seller doesn't want the hassle of doing the form(s) and isn't using a Dealer because he doesn't have to, there is absolutely nothing wrong for the Buyer himself to prepare any or all of the forms. The Buyer's FFL does not have to prepare any of the forms either. The forms just have to be prepared correctly and the proper parties must sign where they're supposed to. That's about the only requirement as to form preparation. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 1:33:38 PM EDT
[#8]
Thanks for the info on just 2 form 4 and no 3.
I never said the dealer had to do anything other than log it in, store it, and log it out. They don't have to, but imo they should help you with the process, either by filling it out or at least answering your questions, unless you aren't paying them much. I had to fix my first form 4 that the dealer screwed up, so I understand diy. The ffl I use is cheap and can never print out all 3 copies correctly. I'll deal with that to pay $25 for a transfer instead of $50. I just make sure it is correct before I mail it. It's like buying a car. They don't have to put any gas in it, but you assume they will at least leave you enough to get to a gas station. It was just an assumption that a business would help you with something you are paying them to issist you with. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:29:52 PM EDT
[#9]
Learned something new today.
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Posted: 8/17/2017 2:31:30 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I was always told you couldn't F4 to another state. |
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Posted: 8/17/2017 10:24:15 PM EDT
[#11]
Just did this process.
I was the seller. Dealer in buyers state started the forms, signed them, then Mailed them to me. I filled out the rest, then sent them out. Approved form 4 came to me. I sent it out with firearm to the dealer in the buyers state. The buyer then fills out the form 4 for transfer from dealer to himself. You as the buyer should not be touching in any way the first form 4 from out of state to your dealer. It has none of your information on it, you actually have nothing to do with that first form. If the seller isn't paying the first transfer fee then you would be responsible for the payment, that's all. FYI I just had a form 4 individual to dealer take just under 4 weeks for approval. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 2:11:49 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
...You as the buyer should not be touching in any way the first form 4 from out of state to your dealer.... Sorry, don't mean to be argumentative, but you are mistaken if you think that is a rule or something. I can touch it (lol) or prepare the Form if the Seller and Dealer are okay with it. Many Indiv Sellers request the Buyer prepare it as they don't know how and don't have a dealer to do it since a dealer on their end is not required. We all do it our own way, there are no rules for who prepares. FYI I just had a form 4 individual to dealer take just under 4 weeks for approval. This is great news, thanks for that. I have heard these type transfers and the Form3s have really sped up after 41P. Good news for all. |
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Posted: 8/18/2017 3:25:10 PM EDT
[#13]
Nope, not mistaken, and not a rule I'm quoting. Just saying you don't NEED to, let the seller do it. You don't seem to understand exactly how to do it, so why bother with it. Let the people who actually NEED to fill in their information, fill it in.
But hey, if you want to, by all means, you just have to do more work. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 11:28:11 AM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Just did this process. I was the seller. Dealer in buyers state started the forms, signed them, then Mailed them to me. I filled out the rest, then sent them out. Approved form 4 came to me. I sent it out with firearm to the dealer in the buyers state. The buyer then fills out the form 4 for transfer from dealer to himself. You as the buyer should not be touching in any way the first form 4 from out of state to your dealer. It has none of your information on it, you actually have nothing to do with that first form. If the seller isn't paying the first transfer fee then you would be responsible for the payment, that's all. FYI I just had a form 4 individual to dealer take just under 4 weeks for approval. I've read where others say now even dealers have to follow the same rules as individuals/trusts/corps when acting as the transferee on a form 4. True? Makes no sense if you're an SOT as the ATF already has your info, prints, etc. Am I missing something? |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 12:55:44 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
So I'm also doing this right now. I bought an NFA item from an individual out of state. He's transferring it directly to my dealer via form 4. He filled it out with his info and my dealer's info then sent it off to the ATF. I don't recall him asking my dealer for his signature. Should he have? (my dealer is 07/02 if that makes a difference). I see there's a signature block on the back page for the 'transferee' but I thought that was for individuals acting as the transferee, not dealers. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 1:45:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Seller is the only one that signs the Form 4 to your instate FFL holder. Only the front page needs to be filled out as long as your instate FFL holder is not a Type 03 license (basically a C&R which is for individuals only and can be used to transfer interstate of a C&R NFA covered Firearm)
From the directions sections 12-19 that are on the 2nd page and into the 3rd page are not to be filled out if by your FFL. Completion of Form (NOTE: if the transferee is a Federal firearms licensee except for a Type 03 licensee, items 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 nor 19 are required to be completed) . |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 1:50:05 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Seller is the only one that signs the Form 4 to your instate FFL holder. Only the front page needs to be filled out as long as your instate FFL holder is not a Type 03 license (basically a C&R which is for individuals only and can be used to transfer interstate of a C&R NFA covered Firearm) From the directions sections 12-19 that are on the 2nd page and into the 3rd page are not to be filled out if by your FFL. Completion of Form (NOTE: if the transferee is a Federal firearms licensee except for a Type 03 licensee, items 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18 nor 19 are required to be completed) . Revised September 2017 https://www.atf.gov/firearms/docs/form/form-4-application-tax-paid-transfer-and-registration-firearm-atf-form-53204/download Folks need to be sure they are using the latest form. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 1:52:23 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
How did he fill out the CLEO section if he did not involve the receiving FFL? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
So I'm also doing this right now. I bought an NFA item from an individual out of state. He's transferring it directly to my dealer via form 4. He filled it out with his info and my dealer's info then sent it off to the ATF. I don't recall him asking my dealer for his signature. Should he have? (my dealer is 07/02 if that makes a difference). I see there's a signature block on the back page for the 'transferee' but I thought that was for individuals acting as the transferee, not dealers. You got that part wrong in your first reply to his first question. you said yes to the following: 1. Does the page2 line 12 LEO info need to be entered? Doesn't seem like it should since the Transferee is a Dealer, but instr are silent. The correct answer is no. Section 12 and the rest of the sections that have the CLEO info is not required to be filled out for a Form 4 from a non licensed to a FFL (non C&R) holder. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 1:56:16 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
RenegadeX, you must be having an off day I rarely see you get things wrong if ever. You got that part wrong in your first reply to his first question. you said yes to the following: 1. Does the page2 line 12 LEO info need to be entered? Doesn't seem like it should since the Transferee is a Dealer, but instr are silent. The correct answer is no. Section 12 and the rest of the sections that have the CLEO info is not required to be filled out for a Form 4 from a non licensed to a FFL (non C&R) holder. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 2:02:14 PM EDT
[#20]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
See above post. While I did get it wrong, it is only because I did not know a new form was released 5 days ago and have not got the new ones yet from ATF. All mine are "Revised October 2016" You got me! So the ATF probably had a messed up form released requesting that info? We know ATF never makes mistakes ;-) |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 2:04:34 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have a F4 2008 form copy from a FOIA request from individual to FFL and from what I remember the 2nd page was never required in those cases. So the ATF probably had a messed up form released requesting that info? We know ATF never makes mistakes ;-) But the first F4 released to comply with ATF41F required Transferee to notify CLEO even if Transferee was FFL/SOT. Lots of grumbling from FFLS. Looks like ATF fixed that in last release of form. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 2:14:01 PM EDT
[#22]
Thanks fellas, that clears up a lot of confusion. Just noticed myself the ATF released a new form revision. I was finding it hard to believe an SOT-paying dealer would have to notify the CLEO for "proposed acquisition and possession" of every NFA item they transferred. But hey, we are talking about the government here...
@bending_rodriguez - Great to hear about your speedy transfer. Did you by chance use SilencerShop's online form generator? I'm curious to see how much difference their barcode system will have on the backlog. |
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Posted: 10/5/2017 8:10:51 PM EDT
[#23]
Nope, it was just a standard paper form 4 from individual to dealer.
You really lucked out though with this revision in September, because, yes, contrary to what was posted above, you DID need to notify CLEO and you DID need the dealer to sign the form before sending it in. The easiest way to do this was how I posted above it seemed. Seller sends the copy of their form 4 to the receiving dealer. Then that dealer creates the new form 4 with all of the information to transfer from the seller to themselves, signs it and sends it to the seller to sign and send off to the ATF. This was post 41f/p through September anyway. Very big PITA so obviously they realized this and made it a little easier now. Good luck with yours. I have now heard most recently they are taking 2-3 months again? |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 3:01:06 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
I have now heard most recently they are taking 2-3 months again? |
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Posted: 10/6/2017 5:03:50 AM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You really lucked out though with this revision in September, because, yes, contrary to what was posted above, you DID need to notify CLEO and you DID need the dealer to sign the form before sending it in. The easiest way to do this was how I posted above it seemed. Seller sends the copy of their form 4 to the receiving dealer. Then that dealer creates the new form 4 with all of the information to transfer from the seller to themselves, signs it and sends it to the seller to sign and send off to the ATF. This was post 41f/p through September anyway. Very big PITA so obviously they realized this and made it a little easier now. I'd be interested to see what the actual ATF policy was. I wouldn't be surprised if it's always been 'dealers aren't required to fill/sign' but it was something they didn't think of spelling out on the original form since the majority use it for dealer-to-individual/trust/corp transfers. And because it wasn't specifically spelled out, it became open to interpretation. One examiner might interpret it literally, "if the instructions don't say otherwise then it must be done. Period." Whereas another examiner might see it logically, "the transferee is SOT so it doesn't apply". Same applies on the transferee's side, "it doesn't specifically say dealers are exempt so I guess I need to fill it out". If anything, I've learned how 'grey' and inconsistent the ATF can be with interpreting the NFA. I've literally gotten different answers to the same questions; just depends on who answers the phone/email. These nuances make my head spin. Anyway, time will tell with this form 4. With any luck they will process it quickly. Fingers are crossed... |
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Posted: 10/8/2017 8:40:09 PM EDT
[#26]
I had a machinegun transfer to my dealer from an individual via a tax Paid Form 4 that was submitted back in July and was approved in September.
The back of the form was left completely blank and the ATF approved it without issue. Machinegun showed up at my dealer last week. The prior form revisions may have not carved out a specific exemption for transfers to FFL/SOTs regarding the back page but the ATF is approving them either way....at least in my case. However it seems to be a mute issue now that the updated forms make that exemption. |
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Posted: 10/9/2017 9:49:29 AM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I had a machinegun transfer to my dealer from an individual via a tax Paid Form 4 that was submitted back in July and was approved in September. The back of the form was left completely blank and the ATF approved it without issue. Machinegun showed up at my dealer last week. The prior form revisions may have not carved out a specific exemption for transfers to FFL/SOTs regarding the back page but the ATF is approving them either way....at least in my case. However it seems to be a mute issue now that the updated forms make that exemption. The real test will be when it transfers to me. I plan to use SilencerShop's bar-coded form 4; they're projecting a 3-month wait by the end of the year for dealer-to-individuals.  I'm doubtful but optimistic.
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Posted: 10/31/2017 9:48:44 PM EDT
[#28]
Glad I checked back in to see the recent discussions and yet another revised Form 4.
I completed my out of state Indiv to Dealer Form 4 using Renegade's tips back in mid Sept on the old form. Im hoping it will go through with no hiccups. Dont see why it wouldn't as I followed the then instructions and its just extra added info supplied anyways. Seems like the ATF requested form corrections usually stem from missing info, not too much info. |
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Posted: 10/31/2017 9:57:10 PM EDT
[#29]
Following up with an update. Form was received by the individual yesterday. He didn't say what the approval date was but I'd guess about two weeks ago. So that makes it around 30 days from check cashed to approval!
OBTW the submitted form was the May 2016 version. |
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Posted: 10/31/2017 10:33:21 PM EDT
[#30]
^ Damn thats fast 60. Congrats on that. Maybe mine will be approved any day now. Thanks for the update.
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Posted: 11/1/2017 12:25:49 AM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
^ Damn thats fast 60. Congrats on that. Maybe mine will be approved any day now. Thanks for the update. There seems to be a trend of shorter processing times overall so maybe it's a sign of better things to come! |
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