Armory Sponsor
Posted: 12/27/2016 11:29:23 PM EDT
| So I'm looking to add another suppressor to the line up. This will be my first 41F submission. I have been reading until my brain spins but just to much contradiction in what I read from one place to another. Can I make a amendment to remove my trustees and beneficiaries(it's my wife and kids) from my trust and just send in my prints and photo? And then once approved I could get rid of the amendment and be back to where I started with my new suppressor in the trust. Does this sound right? |
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Quoted:
So I'm looking to add another suppressor to the line up. This will be my first 41F submission. I have been reading until my brain spins but just to much contradiction in what I read from one place to another. Can I make a amendment to remove my trustees and beneficiaries(it's my wife and kids) from my trust and just send in my prints and photo? And then once approved I could get rid of the amendment and be back to where I started with my new suppressor in the trust. Does this sound right? My understanding is, it doesn't work that way. When you add -- or add back-- trustees or beneficiaries, you have 60 days to do the prints/ etc. for them; failing to do so makes the NFA items owned by the trust unregistered. If ya don't want to go through prints and photos for your family, just have new acquisitions transferred to you as an individual. |
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Quoted:
My understanding is, it doesn't work that way. When you add -- or add back-- trustees or beneficiaries, you have 60 days to do the prints/ etc. for them; failing to do so makes the NFA items owned by the trust unregistered. If ya don't want to go through prints and photos for your family, just have new acquisitions transferred to you as an individual. Quoted:
My understanding is, it doesn't work that way. When you add -- or add back-- trustees or beneficiaries, you have 60 days to do the prints/ etc. for them; failing to do so makes the NFA items owned by the trust unregistered. If ya don't want to go through prints and photos for your family, just have new acquisitions transferred to you as an individual. Who, pray tell, did you come to that understanding from? In their response to the public input on 41P, the ATF specifically called out the fact that they had no authority over the trusts themselves and can only establish rules with regard to responsible persons at the time of application. To that end, the ATF has provided guidance on such things here: ATF 41F FAQ Q: Will new responsible persons, added after the making or transfer, be subject to the same
requirements? A: Once an application has been approved, no documentation is required to be submitted to ATF when a new responsible person is added to a trust or legal entity. However, should a responsible person change after the application has been submitted, but before it is approved, the applicant or transferee must contact the NFA Branch for guidance. |
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There was a proposal in 41P to have to notify of changes to RPs within 30 days. It didn't make the cut and is not in 41F.
However, you don't want to remove beneficiaries, else you don't really have a trust. The entire point of a trust is to hold property for a beneficiary. You can remove all other trustees unless your trust specifically prohibits it. Then, add everybody back after it's approved. |
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Quoted:
There was a proposal in 41P to have to notify of changes to RPs within 30 days. It didn't make the cut and is not in 41F. However, you don't want to remove beneficiaries, else you don't really have a trust. The entire point of a trust is to hold property for a beneficiary. You can remove all other trustees unless your trust specifically prohibits it. Then, add everybody back after it's approved. This is my understanding as well from the lawyer that drafted my trust |
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Quoted:
My understanding is, it doesn't work that way. When you add -- or add back-- trustees or beneficiaries, you have 60 days to do the prints/ etc. for them; failing to do so makes the NFA items owned by the trust unregistered. If ya don't want to go through prints and photos for your family, just have new acquisitions transferred to you as an individual. No, this is completely false. Where do people come up with this garbage?. The BATFE does not dictate trust law, and 41F only changes regulations regarding transfers. If you have no forms pending, you are free to change your trust as you see fit in accordance with the trust laws of your state. Nothing needs to be sent to the BATFE. If you add trustees while you have a form pending, the BATFE has instructed people to contact them for guidance. I don't know if they'll tell you to resubmit, or just send the additional responsible person form. |
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No, this is completely false. Where do people come up with this garbage?. The BATFE does not dictate trust law, and 41F only changes regulations regarding transfers. If you have no forms pending, you are free to change your trust as you see fit in accordance with the trust laws of your state. Nothing needs to be sent to the BATFE. If you add trustees while you have a form pending, the BATFE has instructed people to contact them for guidance. I don't know if they'll tell you to resubmit, or just send the additional responsible person form. Where I came up with this garbage is that, as noted above, it was in the original proposal by BATFE. That part did not make the cut, and I was not aware of that. But I began my response with "my understanding is," knowing that if I was wrong, someone would post and politely correct me. And my thanks to those who did so. 
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Quoted:
There was a proposal in 41P to have to notify of changes to RPs within 30 days. It didn't make the cut and is not in 41F. However, you don't want to remove beneficiaries, else you don't really have a trust. The entire point of a trust is to hold property for a beneficiary. You can remove all other trustees unless your trust specifically prohibits it. Then, add everybody back after it's approved. So they shouldn't be moved back until approved? That sucks if I have property of the trust in the possession of co-trustees at other houses. Technically they wouldn't be allowed to keep it while the new item is 'in process' |
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Devils advocate.
You remove the trustees, submit a form, then shortly afterwards decide to add back a trustee so they can posess a gun. At this point the ATF instructions advise you to contact them for instructions. If you were to not notify the ATF before they approve the form, have you violated any laws or regulations? If so what one? |
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Devils advocate. You remove the trustees, submit a form, then shortly afterwards decide to add back a trustee so they can posess a gun. At this point the ATF instructions advise you to contact them for instructions. If you were to not notify the ATF before they approve the form, have you violated any laws or regulations? If so what one? True. Like was quoted above from the 41F FAQ it says must contact ATF for "guidance"...whatever that means 
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True. Like was quoted above from the 41F FAQ it says must contact ATF for "guidance"...whatever that means It simply means at the time they wrote the FAQ, they had no idea how to answer the question.
(And evidently haven't bothered to update it since then) |
| It sounds like you can just change a current trust by removing any co-trustees from the trust and submit the trust with just you as the only trustee. That is what I am doing, just removed the co-trustee language and exhibit and just resubmitting the trust without that and it should fix the problem. |
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Quoted:
It sounds like you can just change a current trust by removing any co-trustees from the trust and submit the trust with just you as the only trustee. That is what I am doing, just removed the co-trustee language and exhibit and just resubmitting the trust without that and it should fix the problem. So no record of an amendment? Does the ATF keep a copy of your trust on file, or is it scraped after Form 1/4 approval? |
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So no record of an amendment? Does the ATF keep a copy of your trust on file, or is it scraped after Form 1/4 approval? Quoted:
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It sounds like you can just change a current trust by removing any co-trustees from the trust and submit the trust with just you as the only trustee. That is what I am doing, just removed the co-trustee language and exhibit and just resubmitting the trust without that and it should fix the problem. So no record of an amendment? Does the ATF keep a copy of your trust on file, or is it scraped after Form 1/4 approval? I am wondering this as well... The way my trust is worded for the trustees is "The following persons are hereby appointed as Trustees of the Trust:" Then it has my name listed and the other trustees. If I am able to just reprint a new sheet where the other trustees are removed except for my name, that would be simple. If I need to draft an amendment and submit that, I can do that as well since I have a friend who can notarize whatever I need. |
| You would have to make an amendment saying you are removing them and submit the entire trust (with new amendment) with any new submittals. The problem is, those co-trustees (in my case dad/brother) that you remove can't possess property of the trust. So keep that in mind. |
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