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Posted: 12/9/2015 2:15:39 AM EDT
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Question for you guys/gals,
There has been some talk among friends on build parties for Form 1 suppressors. I have considered hosting this at my place, since I have a 4 axis CNC mill which I could engrave their tubes with, HVLP guns for coatings, etc. Question is, is that even legal to do so/host? I remember a while back there were rumors that CNC shops could not do 80% lowers for people, wondering if the same applied here. Naturally the tube would remain in their control the entire time, within eye sight, and at the same time, approved form 1s would be verified. Is there any reason this couldn't happen/be done? Zach ETA: I am not a machine shop or business, just have the machines for hobby type stuff. |
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My recollection of the 80% build party discussions was that if there was a charge for machine time or tooling, or if the machines were owned by a business; then a FFL was needed to do work on firearms.
The consensus was that for a hobbyists machine shop (not a business) that did not charge for machine time or tooling, no FFL would be needed. Bear in mind that the discussion was for non-NFA items; but for what you are describing, I don't see any difference. IANAL, YMMV, etc.... |
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Quoted: Bear in mind that the discussion was for non-NFA items; but for what you are describing, I don't see any difference. IANAL, YMMV, etc.... I see a substantial distinction between build parties for non-NFA items and NFA items. When a private individual (non-FFL holder) makes a title 1 firearm (non-NFA item), there is no registration, manufacturer name or serial number required (at least under federal law. However, all NFA items are registered, do require manufacturer name and a serial number. I believe the policy behind going after build parties was to limit the number of unregistered and untraceable weapons and that wouldn't be the case with a NFA build party. I'd think the real difficulty with a NFA build party would be the patience required on the part of those with approved Form 1's while they wait for the rest of the group to get approval. |
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No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. Quoted:
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Recent BATFE (ruling, letter?) came out that forbade borrowing tools for 80% builds. No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. It was more than that - it basically shut down build parties. And preemptively killed the Ghost Gunner syndicates that were about to form. |
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It was more than that - it basically shut down build parties. And preemptively killed the Ghost Gunner syndicates that were about to form. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Recent BATFE (ruling, letter?) came out that forbade borrowing tools for 80% builds. No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. It was more than that - it basically shut down build parties. And preemptively killed the Ghost Gunner syndicates that were about to form. Well lets' go to the ruling and see: Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records. If you are NOT "engaged in the business", then this ruling does not apply to you. A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT engaged in the business. Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment. A business with tools, machinery,etc ( a machine shop for example), cannot let folks use those tools for compensation. Again A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT a business. Thus ordinary build parties among friends continue to flourish. |
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Well lets' go to the ruling and see: Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records. If you are NOT "engaged in the business", then this ruling does not apply to you. A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT engaged in the business. Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment. A business with tools, machinery,etc ( a machine shop for example), cannot let folks use those tools for compensation. Again A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT a business. Thus ordinary build parties among friends continue to flourish. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Recent BATFE (ruling, letter?) came out that forbade borrowing tools for 80% builds. No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. It was more than that - it basically shut down build parties. And preemptively killed the Ghost Gunner syndicates that were about to form. Well lets' go to the ruling and see: Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records. If you are NOT "engaged in the business", then this ruling does not apply to you. A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT engaged in the business. Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment. A business with tools, machinery,etc ( a machine shop for example), cannot let folks use those tools for compensation. Again A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT a business. Thus ordinary build parties among friends continue to flourish. Got a link to that? Thought it was a bit more extensive, as it defined association or society. |
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Quoted:
No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. Quoted:
No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. A business with tools, machinery,etc ( a machine shop for example), cannot let folks use those tools for compensation. Again A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT a business. Thus ordinary build parties among friends continue to flourish. RenegadeX I trust your opinion regarding the subject of the NFA as much or more than anyone on ARFCOM but I am not seeing this regarding compensation. Please elaborate. |
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Got a link to that? Thought it was a bit more extensive, as it defined association or society. Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Recent BATFE (ruling, letter?) came out that forbade borrowing tools for 80% builds. No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. It was more than that - it basically shut down build parties. And preemptively killed the Ghost Gunner syndicates that were about to form. Well lets' go to the ruling and see: Held, any person (including any corporation or other legal entity) engaged in the business of performing machining, molding, casting, forging, printing (additive manufacturing) or other manufacturing process to create a firearm frame or receiver, or to make a frame or receiver suitable for use as part of a “weapon … which will or is designed to or may readily be converted to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive,” i.e., a “firearm,” must be licensed as a manufacturer under the GCA; identify (mark) any such firearm; and maintain required manufacturer’s records. If you are NOT "engaged in the business", then this ruling does not apply to you. A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT engaged in the business. Held further, a business (including an association or society) may not avoid the manufacturing license, marking, and recordkeeping requirements of the GCA by allowing persons to perform manufacturing processes on blanks or incomplete firearms (including frames or receivers) using machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to, and use of, such machinery, tools, or equipment. A business with tools, machinery,etc ( a machine shop for example), cannot let folks use those tools for compensation. Again A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT a business. Thus ordinary build parties among friends continue to flourish. Got a link to that? Thought it was a bit more extensive, as it defined association or society. It is ruling 2015-1. No link but I a am sure it is on ATF web site. |
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RenegadeX I trust your opinion regarding the subject of the NFA as much or more than anyone on ARFCOM but I am not seeing this regarding compensation. Please elaborate. Quoted:
Quoted:
No such ruling. The ruling was about charging for use of tools. A business with tools, machinery,etc ( a machine shop for example), cannot let folks use those tools for compensation. Again A few friends getting together to assemble some guns in their home are NOT a business. Thus ordinary build parties among friends continue to flourish. RenegadeX I trust your opinion regarding the subject of the NFA as much or more than anyone on ARFCOM but I am not seeing this regarding compensation. Please elaborate. It is mentioned in the full 7 page 2015-1 report. It is complicated as compensation generally points to engaged in business. The original problem ATF was trying to stop was folks with portable CNC machines going to someones premises and letting them push a button and make a gun. The other problem was non-firearm businesses that had programmed an on-site CNC machine to make a gun the holding build parties and taking in compensation for use of machine. A lot of it is common sense. If I have performance car shop and you come over to use my vise to make your gun. no problem. If I let people come over every weekend to use my CNC machine, big problem even if I do not charge. The point is, friends making guns together for personal use are still GTG. eta keep in mind an FFL cannot host a build party at business premises. |
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Ah - it doesn't define an association or society. That's the rub. Thanks. Previously defined term and is a subset of person, thus is not is not a individual, corporation, company, firm, partnership, or joint stock company. Though some of these would be included in the term business. Also it does not prevent business (including an association or society) from hosting a build party, just you cannot use machinery, tools, or equipment under its dominion and control where that business controls access to. So even if you have a full-blown machine shop, as long as folks are not using those tools you are GTG. The 80% build process for ARs has become so easy there is no need to. Jigs and such are under $100 and easily obtained. The technology to build an 80% AR has outpaced this ruling. |
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