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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 41P update? (Page 1 of 3)
Posted: 3/9/2015 11:06:22 PM EDT
| Any new timetable for when it will be implemented? |
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Anyone else doing lots of praying for a push back?  I have a Octane 9 in jail right now....so yes.  IMO 41P being approved, either entirely or almost-entirely is a near certainty. At this point all we can hope for is that it's delayed as long as possible...
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Anyone else doing lots of praying for a push back? No, I am actually hoping for a sensible outcome. A form to submit with trust & corporation applications listing authorized persons. No CLEO sign off or fingerprints, just background check at ATF and form is returned approved. No need to carry trust documents with form 4, just the form listing authorized persons and form 4 (or form 1). I don't really think this will happen but I am hoping. |
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT.
I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. |
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. People seem pretty pessimistic about 41p (myself included). I don't get the feeling from anyone that it won't go through. A few of my friends pretty well connected in the nfa community think it is a done deal. |
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People seem pretty pessimistic about 41p (myself included). I don't get the feeling from anyone that it won't go through. A few of my friends pretty well connected in the nfa community think it is a done deal. Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. People seem pretty pessimistic about 41p (myself included). I don't get the feeling from anyone that it won't go through. A few of my friends pretty well connected in the nfa community think it is a done deal. It is a done deal. |
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It is a done deal. Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. People seem pretty pessimistic about 41p (myself included). I don't get the feeling from anyone that it won't go through. A few of my friends pretty well connected in the nfa community think it is a done deal. It is a done deal. Sounds like you know something that NO ONE else knows about? |
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I have a Octane 9 in jail right now....so yes. IMO 41P being approved, either entirely or almost-entirely is a near certainty. At this point all we can hope for is that it's delayed as long as possible...Quoted:
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Anyone else doing lots of praying for a push back? I have a Octane 9 in jail right now....so yes. IMO 41P being approved, either entirely or almost-entirely is a near certainty. At this point all we can hope for is that it's delayed as long as possible...Don't think it would affect you as your f4 is already in process |
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Sounds like you know something that NO ONE else knows about? Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. People seem pretty pessimistic about 41p (myself included). I don't get the feeling from anyone that it won't go through. A few of my friends pretty well connected in the nfa community think it is a done deal. It is a done deal. Sounds like you know something that NO ONE else knows about? Other than Director of ATF telling me it is a done deal, and knowing when a Federal Agency posts a RFC in the Federal Register, it gets enacted 99.99% of time, no. |
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Other than Director of ATF telling me it is a done deal, and knowing when a Federal Agency posts a RFC in the Federal Register, it gets enacted 99.99% of time, no. Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. People seem pretty pessimistic about 41p (myself included). I don't get the feeling from anyone that it won't go through. A few of my friends pretty well connected in the nfa community think it is a done deal. It is a done deal. Sounds like you know something that NO ONE else knows about? Other than Director of ATF telling me it is a done deal, and knowing when a Federal Agency posts a RFC in the Federal Register, it gets enacted 99.99% of time, no. End of the summer? Forms already in process? |
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Other than Director of ATF telling me it is a done deal, and knowing when a Federal Agency posts a RFC in the Federal Register, it gets enacted 99.99% of time, no. Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. People seem pretty pessimistic about 41p (myself included). I don't get the feeling from anyone that it won't go through. A few of my friends pretty well connected in the nfa community think it is a done deal. It is a done deal. Sounds like you know something that NO ONE else knows about? Other than Director of ATF telling me it is a done deal, and knowing when a Federal Agency posts a RFC in the Federal Register, it gets enacted 99.99% of time, no. Awesome, this is great news isnt it? I mean the director of the atf telling you classified info to post on a public message board, what could possibly go wrong? |
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Awesome, this is great news isnt it? I mean the director of the atf telling you classified info to post on a public message board, what could possibly go wrong? Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. It is a done deal. Sounds like you know something that NO ONE else knows about? Other than Director of ATF telling me it is a done deal, and knowing when a Federal Agency posts a RFC in the Federal Register, it gets enacted 99.99% of time, no. Awesome, this is great news isnt it? I mean the director of the atf telling you classified info to post on a public message board, what could possibly go wrong? It isn't exactly an Edward Snowden level leak. ...... |
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Awesome, this is great news isnt it? I mean the director of the atf telling you classified info to post on a public message board, what could possibly go wrong? Well I tried to sell it to the Russians, they laughed at me. Chinese and Iranians would not pay either, so l leaked on ARFCOM last month. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_20/440320_Rugged_Suppressors_Official_Announcement_and_QandA.html&page=1 |
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RenegadeX - any hints you can drop or hypotheses you have regarding how exactly this is going to work? For instance, are forms in progress affected? If you submit a few days before the change is made official, will they kick the application back for you to get the signature and fingerprints? Or are we talking applications forthwith from the date of the change, while the applications in progress won't require it?
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Remember when someone supposedly found the M855 ban already published months before the end of the comment period? That one was a done deal, too. Difference here is that there are a lot more AR owners than NFA owners. We just cant create the negative wave the AR community can. The optimist in me is thankful that it is not a law like the 86 MG ban, but a simple rule change that could hopefully be reversed with a little lobbying once a new gun friendly president enters the white house. Hopefully Obama has done enough political damage where that will be a reality in 2016. If that happens then there is a chance this is a temporary thing and we will be able to save the numerous jobs that will be lost if this becomes permanent. |
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Remember when someone supposedly found the M855 ban already published months before the end of the comment period? That one was a done deal, too. HaHa! Right. 
I think this whole thing is a scare tactic. A bunch of Bullshit! People like the guy that say the "Director" of the ATF told "HIM" of ALL people it was a done deal, are the dipshits keeping it alive! Say what you want! This is the first time I've thought about it since November.......... |
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Remember when someone supposedly found the M855 ban already published months before the end of the comment period? That one was a done deal, too. Yeah - that's not even close to the same thing at all. The "M855 ban" was never even published, they just removed the exemption sheet. They specifically named ammunition that was banned - M855 wasn't on that list. |
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RenegadeX - any hints you can drop or hypotheses you have regarding how exactly this is going to work? For instance, are forms in progress affected? If you submit a few days before the change is made official, will they kick the application back for you to get the signature and fingerprints? Or are we talking applications forthwith from the date of the change, while the applications in progress won't require it? I was just an attendee at SHOT who saw the Director at the ATF booth and asked the status of 41P and got an answer. I have no other insight into how it is going to be implemented. |
Given the SC recent ruling specifically about comment periods, and the batfe just lost a public battle over m855 (among others), I sadly believe that 41p is going through. They want a win and this one has been in play for some time. You wont see senators and congressmen getting together to fight for us (on what others call a NFA "loophole")  Just my 2 cents, and oh yeah, I believe RenegadeX that the director told him that. You guys think he is making that up crack me the hell up.
Buy now if you have a non friendly cleo.... |
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From what I understand once they have decided on what they were going to do (in May) they would decide on a date that the change would take effect and that would be a minimum of 30 days from the date of the announcement. This would make it June sometime so that would be summer as indicated by RenegadeX.
I suspect they are not going to want to return forms so they will still process things they have received by that date. This will probably mean a HUGE glut of submissions the closer we get to May and a final date is given for trusts. Once that passes they will be working on the backlog for months to come. Once that is cleared out I think they will have a fraction of the current workload since getting CLEO signoff will be impossible for most people. |
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They are doing it because the CLEO signoff requirement puts NFA out of reach for most people. Between outright refusals and the hassle of doing it I think many people will not even bother.
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Why are they so resistant to simply dropping CLEO certification? They could _easily_ get background checks for everyone on a trust implement with almost no fuss. |
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They are doing it because the CLEO signoff requirement puts NFA out of reach for most people. Between outright refusals and the hassle of doing it I think many people will not even bother. Quoted:
They are doing it because the CLEO signoff requirement puts NFA out of reach for most people. Between outright refusals and the hassle of doing it I think many people will not even bother. Quoted:
Why are they so resistant to simply dropping CLEO certification? They could _easily_ get background checks for everyone on a trust implement with almost no fuss. That is so incredibly sad and depressing, total disregard for the law (simple taxation) and constitution (right to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed). |
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. |
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That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. So you're saying if any form 1 or form 4 are being processed now and 41p passed, they would all be rejected? |
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They are doing it because the CLEO signoff requirement puts NFA out of reach for most people. Between outright refusals and the hassle of doing it I think many people will not even bother. Quoted:
They are doing it because the CLEO signoff requirement puts NFA out of reach for most people. Between outright refusals and the hassle of doing it I think many people will not even bother. Quoted:
Why are they so resistant to simply dropping CLEO certification? They could _easily_ get background checks for everyone on a trust implement with almost no fuss. I want to grab a couple more suppressors but honestly I have other things I would rather (or should) spend money on instead. If the rules change and it becomes too much of a PITA I will just forget about acquiring more NFA items. While they were fun going thru a bunch of extra hoops on top of the 4+ month wait just takes all of the fun out of it for me. The reality is the only thing I am lacking is a 9mm suppressor and I am not even sure if I actually want one or that I would ever use it. |
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Quoted: That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. Quoted: Quoted: Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. You misunderstood his post. He's saying to fill out and file a bunch of F1's now if you don't want the hassle of or can't get CLEO signature because the trust route without CLEO signature is likely going away. |
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Quoted: So you're saying if any form 1 or form 4 are being processed now and 41p passed, they would all be rejected? Quoted: Quoted: That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. So you're saying if any form 1 or form 4 are being processed now and 41p passed, they would all be rejected? |
| Given the recent reaches by the ATF (M855 for example) I believe that they will try their hardest to enact it. I think that they are feeling pressure from the current administration to do everything possible to make it harder to have and own firearms and/or NFA items. There is no reason for them to put it off any more, even if they expect a challenge in court. I also think that the NFA industry is going to suffer because if it do to the increased hurtles involved in getting a from approved. I hope that I am wrong but I feel that it is the trajectory that the ATF is on |
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Given the recent reaches by the ATF (M855 for example) I believe that they will try their hardest to enact it. I think that are feeling pressure from the current administration to do everything possible to make it harder to have and own firearms and/or NFA items. There is no reason for them to put it off any more, even if they expect a challenge in court. I also think that the NFA industry is going to suffer because if it do to the increased hurtles involved in getting a from approved. I hope that I am wrong but I feel that it is the trajectory that the ATF is on The manufacturers/dealers/other groups need to figure out a legal fund. There is no reason the rule change cannot get struck down once it's enacted, it will just take some effort and time. |
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So you're saying if any form 1 or form 4 are being processed now and 41p passed, they would all be rejected? Quoted:
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That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. So you're saying if any form 1 or form 4 are being processed now and 41p passed, they would all be rejected? If they are like any other gov't agency, they will probably say "41P goes into full effect on this date, applications received on or after that date will need to conform by the new rules". But nobody really knows. Again, there's no time like the present. The sooner you file, the sooner you get approval. |
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Dude, you're trying to teach a very experienced NFA dealer how it works? lol You misunderstood his post. He's saying to fill out and file a bunch of F1's now if you don't want the hassle of or can't get CLEO signature because the trust route without CLEO signature is likely going away. Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. You misunderstood his post. He's saying to fill out and file a bunch of F1's now if you don't want the hassle of or can't get CLEO signature because the trust route without CLEO signature is likely going away. I see what you mean, but  to your "lol" comment. Being a dealer does not make one more or less qualified than anyone else who understands the NFA process.
I'm simply saying that having Form 1s waiting in the wings is not going to be a hedge against future transfers, as he was alluding to with his pre '86 RDIAS comment. Filing would only help YOU get YOUR NFA stuff before needing CLEO approval, it won't be even remotely like the '86 MG ban---not to say it won't be bad, just that it won't be "the end" for people wanting to get into NFA. |
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That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. You misunderstood the analogy. Repeating what I wrote, the reference to MG ban was about the doubters who were certain it was going to be removed. It didn't happen. And then folks didn't think the AWB was going to happen. Nobody seems to learn from history and prepare for the worst case. Same here, many fence sitters who cannot get CLEO and think 41P is not going to happen might wish they had filed a few F1s before it went into effect. Filing now is what folks who cannot get a CLEO need to do. If you can get CLEO, 41P really does not matter. |
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You misunderstood the analogy. Repeating what I wrote, the reference to MG ban was about the doubters who were certain it was going to be removed. It didn't happen. And then folks didn't think the AWB was going to happen. Nobody seems to learn from history and prepare for the worst case. Same here, many fence sitters who cannot get CLEO and think 41P is not going to happen might wish they had filed a few F1s before it went into effect. Filing now is what folks who cannot get a CLEO need to do. If you can get CLEO, 41P really does not matter. Quoted:
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Reminds me of Apr/1986 when folks were certain NRA would get MG ban stripped. How did that work out? Worked out pretty good for those that made RDIASs JIT. I would submit several F1s, right now. You can get your money back later if you do not make anything. Especially you rtran, no need to wait for a finished designed. That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. You misunderstood the analogy. Repeating what I wrote, the reference to MG ban was about the doubters who were certain it was going to be removed. It didn't happen. And then folks didn't think the AWB was going to happen. Nobody seems to learn from history and prepare for the worst case. Same here, many fence sitters who cannot get CLEO and think 41P is not going to happen might wish they had filed a few F1s before it went into effect. Filing now is what folks who cannot get a CLEO need to do. If you can get CLEO, 41P really does not matter. Or if you're lazy like myself. Haha. My sheriff will sign off but I just didn't want another step. I just applied for a bunch of items that should hold me over for a long time. Two SBR's and four suppressors. |
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I actually signed up for eFile last night and am looking at submitting a dozen F1s or so just to hedge my bets.
I even have a CLEO that will sign and have always done almost everything as an individual, but there is no guarantee that my CLEO will always sign in the future, especially if he goes from signing a handful of applications now to a potential deluge in the future as everybody has to go to him for sigs. I figure a dozen approvals to build will keep my busy for the next decade. |
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I'm pretty new to the NFA world, so can someone explain this to me please. I live in a county where the CLEO will not sign off so I have a trust, if 41P goes into affect can I kiss new NFA items goodbye? That's the proposal. All responsible parties (still not defined) will have to go through the same process that individuals currently do. Prints/pics/sigs. Forget an individual using a trust...think about the fiasco that would ensue with a corporation with hundreds of members.
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So you're saying if any form 1 or form 4 are being processed now and 41p passed, they would all be rejected? Quoted:
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That's not how any of this works... When the MG ban happened, it created an artificial scarcity. 41P does nothing to newly manufactured NFA items, just with how many hoops you have to jump through for newly approved forms. "Filing a bunch of Form 1s" is only beneficial if you are looking to augment your collection, it won't hedge against 41P. There won't be any "pre-41P transferables" that magically don't need CLEO approval if they were filed under a trust. So you're saying if any form 1 or form 4 are being processed now and 41p passed, they would all be rejected? The short and long answer - no one knows but the atf. We will find out soon enough |
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So, if this goes into effect, eForms is essentially shutdown for everyone as far as Form 1s are concerned?? Unless they let you upload pics, and scan & upload prints and sigs, that's what it sounds like. Form 4s also would be useless in EForms 2.0. They could do the F3 transfer (should be instant), and maybe add the 5320.20 (which they should do anyway). |
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Unless they let you upload pics, and scan & upload prints and sigs, that's what it sounds like. Form 4s also would be useless in EForms 2.0. They could do the F3 transfer (should be instant), and maybe add the 5320.20 (which they should do anyway). Quoted:
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So, if this goes into effect, eForms is essentially shutdown for everyone as far as Form 1s are concerned?? Unless they let you upload pics, and scan & upload prints and sigs, that's what it sounds like. Form 4s also would be useless in EForms 2.0. They could do the F3 transfer (should be instant), and maybe add the 5320.20 (which they should do anyway). I never understood why they never added the 5320.20 from the start. Forms wise, it's the easiest. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 41P update? (Page 1 of 3)
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