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Posted: 2/12/2014 7:40:21 PM EDT
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I already have a trust and have one item on my schedule A. I have two more that have transferred to me since and a few more in process. I need to send another f4. Would I get rejected for the schedule A not being current? I'd have to work up a new page and get signatures again to redo it.
Did some quick searching and came up with nothing. |
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It was always my opinion that if the trust owns property, you need to update the schedule. Its not a pain in the ass, just 5 minutes on Microsoft Word, and a quick trip to the bank to have it notorized. No signatures needed, nor do you actually need a notary either. |
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Unless schedule A is numbered part of the trust. Then if not present, the ATF will kick back your forms for missing pages. Quoted:
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I just send them a copy of the trust, no reason to mail them a catalog of your current inventory.  Unless schedule A is numbered part of the trust. Then if not present, the ATF will kick back your forms for missing pages. ^^^ This. They will absolutely kick it back if the Schedule A is missing. Ask me how I know...
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You don't need to list everything on the copy you submit to the BATFE.
I have a master list that I list everything on, but I have a copy that I use to show the trust is 'funded', which lists the s/n of a $2 bill that I have had for about 15 years. And if you are doing a Form 1, you can list the item you are registering since you own it already, but on a Form 4, how can you list an item that you don't own? |
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...but on a Form 4, how can you list an item that you don't own? Actually, you technically "own" the item since you've already paid for it. However, at the time of Form 4 submission it hasn't been legally transferred into your possession, yet. Hence the Form 4. While I'm obviously nitpicking,  I agree with you in general. It doesn't make any sense to list the suppressor that you are submitting the Form 4, on the Schedule A.
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Actually, you technically "own" the item since you've already paid for it. However, at the time of Form 4 submission it hasn't been legally transferred into your possession, yet. Hence the Form 4. While I'm obviously nitpicking, I agree with you in general. It doesn't make any sense to list the suppressor that you are submitting the Form 4, on the Schedule A.Quoted:
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...but on a Form 4, how can you list an item that you don't own? Actually, you technically "own" the item since you've already paid for it. However, at the time of Form 4 submission it hasn't been legally transferred into your possession, yet. Hence the Form 4. While I'm obviously nitpicking, I agree with you in general. It doesn't make any sense to list the suppressor that you are submitting the Form 4, on the Schedule A.Negative. Paying the dealer the money for the item does not give you ownership rights until the transfer of ownership is approved by the ATF. |
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Negative. Paying the dealer the money for the item does not give you ownership rights until the transfer of ownership is approved by the ATF. Quoted:
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...but on a Form 4, how can you list an item that you don't own? Actually, you technically "own" the item since you've already paid for it. However, at the time of Form 4 submission it hasn't been legally transferred into your possession, yet. Hence the Form 4. While I'm obviously nitpicking, I agree with you in general. It doesn't make any sense to list the suppressor that you are submitting the Form 4, on the Schedule A.Negative. Paying the dealer the money for the item does not give you ownership rights until the transfer of ownership is approved by the ATF. Well there ya go! Learn something new everyday. 
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Quoted: Schedule A is only for assets at the time of execution. It is not an evolving list of assets. The Schedule A should never change. NFA Branch needs the Schefule A to confirm the trust is properly funded, hence valid. |
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Schedule A is only for assets at the time of execution. It is not an evolving list of assets. The Schedule A should never change. NFA Branch needs the Schefule A to confirm the trust is properly funded, hence valid. How do you figure that? The Schedule A (or assignment page) provides a list of trust assets. When you purchase an item using the trust, how else are you supposed to document the trust is in fact the entity that has ownership? For instance, a title 1 firearm? |
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Not necessarily. It depends on how your trust is written. There are plenty of trusts out there with verbiage that states "all property owned or added by grantor or trustee is to be listed on Schedule A". The reason you see people use an assignment of property is because they dont like sending a list of all their NFA items to the ATF... even though the ATF knows exactly what they have already. Quoted:
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Schedule A is only for assets at the time of execution. It is not an evolving list of assets. The Schedule A should never change. NFA Branch needs the Schefule A to confirm the trust is properly funded, hence valid. You may well be misreading that language. An executed trust is a "closed" document. That language pertains to pre-execution. You add those Schedule A assets prior to signature. This is why it becomes part of the executed document. When you misuse the Schedule A like this then you have altered the original executed document and it becomes difficult or impossible to valuate the trust at a certain time retroactively, which can be very important later on. Assignment of Property and Schedule A are different documents for good reason. Except under extenuating circumstances and only under the advice of an attorney should you modify the executed trust in any way, by addition or subtraction. An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect assets you currently possess, not assets you have yet to acquire. This is why the Schedule A. |
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An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. Quoted:
An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. An assignment of property is not an amendment to a trust, nor is it in any way part of the trust. A schedule (whether called "Schedule A" or something else) is part of the trust, but is broken out into a separate document specifically so that it can be updated/amended/added to without changing the rest of the trust. If it were intended to be a static document, recording only what the trust was funded with at its creation, there would be no need (indeed, no reason) for it to be a separate document at all--it would simply be one of the articles of the trust document. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect assets you currently possess, not assets you have yet to acquire. This is why the Schedule A. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect and pass assets you currently possess and assets you have yet to acquire. Or do you believe that once someone creates a trust, their property no longer changes? |
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An assignment of property is not an amendment to a trust, nor is it in any way part of the trust. A schedule (whether called "Schedule A" or something else) is part of the trust, but is broken out into a separate document specifically so that it can be updated/amended/added to without changing the rest of the trust. If it were intended to be a static document, recording only what the trust was funded with at its creation, there would be no need (indeed, no reason) for it to be a separate document at all--it would simply be one of the articles of the trust document. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect and pass assets you currently possess and assets you have yet to acquire. Or do you believe that once someone creates a trust, their property no longer changes? Quoted:
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An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. An assignment of property is not an amendment to a trust, nor is it in any way part of the trust. A schedule (whether called "Schedule A" or something else) is part of the trust, but is broken out into a separate document specifically so that it can be updated/amended/added to without changing the rest of the trust. If it were intended to be a static document, recording only what the trust was funded with at its creation, there would be no need (indeed, no reason) for it to be a separate document at all--it would simply be one of the articles of the trust document. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect assets you currently possess, not assets you have yet to acquire. This is why the Schedule A. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect and pass assets you currently possess and assets you have yet to acquire. Or do you believe that once someone creates a trust, their property no longer changes? Like I said, it's a closed document, it's not opened ended. You add assets acquired after execution using an Assignment of Property. |
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Like I said, it's a closed document, it's not opened ended. You add assets acquired after execution using an Assignment of Property. Quoted:
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An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. An assignment of property is not an amendment to a trust, nor is it in any way part of the trust. A schedule (whether called "Schedule A" or something else) is part of the trust, but is broken out into a separate document specifically so that it can be updated/amended/added to without changing the rest of the trust. If it were intended to be a static document, recording only what the trust was funded with at its creation, there would be no need (indeed, no reason) for it to be a separate document at all--it would simply be one of the articles of the trust document. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect assets you currently possess, not assets you have yet to acquire. This is why the Schedule A. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect and pass assets you currently possess and assets you have yet to acquire. Or do you believe that once someone creates a trust, their property no longer changes? Like I said, it's a closed document, it's not opened ended. You add assets acquired after execution using an Assignment of Property. My lawyer specifically explained to use Schedule A for updates. |
| Others may have a different situation, and it most likely comes down to how your trust is written, but my trust has a schedule A with $10 and is signed. It also has an inventory that gets no signatures and is updated with each addition. The schedule A never changes though. Working just fine so far with 3 SBR's and two cans. |
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The way my trust is worded requires a revised Schedule A to be appended to the trust whenever the assets of the trust change. It only requires the signature of the trustee who logs the item in, which is in most cases, me.
Your trust may be different. It's a good idea to read your trust and make sure you understand its provisions. YMMV, IANAL, etc. |
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Quoted: You may well be misreading that language. An executed trust is a "closed" document. That language pertains to pre-execution. You add those Schedule A assets prior to signature. This is why it becomes part of the executed document. When you misuse the Schedule A like this then you have altered the original executed document and it becomes difficult or impossible to valuate the trust at a certain time retroactively, which can be very important later on. Assignment of Property and Schedule A are different documents for good reason. Except under extenuating circumstances and only under the advice of an attorney should you modify the executed trust in any way, by addition or subtraction. An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect assets you currently possess, not assets you have yet to acquire. This is why the Schedule A. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Schedule A is only for assets at the time of execution. It is not an evolving list of assets. The Schedule A should never change. NFA Branch needs the Schefule A to confirm the trust is properly funded, hence valid. You may well be misreading that language. An executed trust is a "closed" document. That language pertains to pre-execution. You add those Schedule A assets prior to signature. This is why it becomes part of the executed document. When you misuse the Schedule A like this then you have altered the original executed document and it becomes difficult or impossible to valuate the trust at a certain time retroactively, which can be very important later on. Assignment of Property and Schedule A are different documents for good reason. Except under extenuating circumstances and only under the advice of an attorney should you modify the executed trust in any way, by addition or subtraction. An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect assets you currently possess, not assets you have yet to acquire. This is why the Schedule A. |
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Like I said, it's a closed document, it's not opened ended. You add assets acquired after execution using an Assignment of Property. I know what you said, but you're wrong in at least a couple of ways. The first is that you're making absolute statements about things that simply aren't absolute--there's no one correct way to draft a trust instrument, and there's consequently no one correct way to make changes to its property, trustees, beneficiaries, and other provisions. The second is that you're apparently confusing the trust instrument itself with its schedules, attachments, and exhibits. The trust instrument itself is a closed document. Any changes to the instrument itself need to be by way of a duly executed amendment to the trust, with whatever formalities are specified in the applicable state law (or specified in the trust instrument itself). Whatever ancillary documents are present, though, are broken out into separate documents for a reason--generally so that they can be changed without messing with the trust itself. David Goldman's trusts break out the listing of co-trustees into a separate exhibit--I can re-do that exhibit at any time, execute it with the appropriate formalities, and the change is made. It may be the case that your trust is set up as you describe--that Schedule A is used to list the property that initially funded the trust, and any subsequent additions were done with an assignment of property document. That certainly makes sense as one valid way to prepare a trust, but it's not the only way to do it, nor even the other good way to do it. I've seen trusts that specify that Schedule A is the inventory of the trust's assets, and that any changes need to be made on schedule A. BigWaylon says that his trust is set up that way. I don't believe that's a particularly good way to make a trust (even a non-gun trust), but it's certainly possible. Neither you nor I know what the OP's trust says, unless you have inside information on it. |
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I have a question, in my schedule a it states that I transfer my title and interest in the following property: one us dollar fed reserve note. Do I have to have a photocopy of a single dollar bill with serial number? I form 1 efiled two lowers, and I do not have a dollar bill on my schedule a, am I going to get a kickback and have to start all over again?
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I have a question, in my schedule a it states that I transfer my title and interest in the following property: one us dollar fed reserve note. Do I have to have a photocopy of a single dollar bill with serial number? I form 1 efiled two lowers, and I do not have a dollar bill on my schedule a, am I going to get a kickback and have to start all over again? I wouldn't... unless you plan on attaching pictures of your NFA items with serial numbers to it as well. |
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I wouldn't... unless you plan on attaching pictures of your NFA items with serial numbers to it as well. Quoted:
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I have a question, in my schedule a it states that I transfer my title and interest in the following property: one us dollar fed reserve note. Do I have to have a photocopy of a single dollar bill with serial number? I form 1 efiled two lowers, and I do not have a dollar bill on my schedule a, am I going to get a kickback and have to start all over again? I wouldn't... unless you plan on attaching pictures of your NFA items with serial numbers to it as well. so the blank schedule a form with no dollar listed is fine? |
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so the blank schedule a form with no dollar listed is fine? Quoted:
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I have a question, in my schedule a it states that I transfer my title and interest in the following property: one us dollar fed reserve note. Do I have to have a photocopy of a single dollar bill with serial number? I form 1 efiled two lowers, and I do not have a dollar bill on my schedule a, am I going to get a kickback and have to start all over again? I wouldn't... unless you plan on attaching pictures of your NFA items with serial numbers to it as well. so the blank schedule a form with no dollar listed is fine? NO! A trust with no assets is not legally valid. A trust only comes into being when it is initially funded. You don't have to photocopy the dollar, but you have to have SOMETHING listed as an asset. Most people just use a dollar because it is serialized, and has legally definable value. EDIT: If you initially funded your trust with one federal reserve note, the Schedule A should list one US dollar. The serial number is not that important, but if you do list the dollar by serial number be sure you keep it with the trust documents. |
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Quoted: NO! A trust with no assets is not legally valid. A trust only comes into being when it is initially funded. You don't have to photocopy the dollar, but you have to have SOMETHING listed as an asset. Most people just use a dollar because it is serialized, and has legally definable value. EDIT: If you initially funded your trust with one federal reserve note, the Schedule A should list one US dollar. The serial number is not that important, but if you do list the dollar by serial number be sure you keep it with the trust documents. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a question, in my schedule a it states that I transfer my title and interest in the following property: one us dollar fed reserve note. Do I have to have a photocopy of a single dollar bill with serial number? I form 1 efiled two lowers, and I do not have a dollar bill on my schedule a, am I going to get a kickback and have to start all over again? I wouldn't... unless you plan on attaching pictures of your NFA items with serial numbers to it as well. so the blank schedule a form with no dollar listed is fine? NO! A trust with no assets is not legally valid. A trust only comes into being when it is initially funded. You don't have to photocopy the dollar, but you have to have SOMETHING listed as an asset. Most people just use a dollar because it is serialized, and has legally definable value. EDIT: If you initially funded your trust with one federal reserve note, the Schedule A should list one US dollar. The serial number is not that important, but if you do list the dollar by serial number be sure you keep it with the trust documents. |
| ok, I was freaked out there for a bit. thanks for the clarification, I am very new to the nfa game. So another question about schedule A, I have two form 1's pending right now. when they get approved do I have to list them on the schedule a for future reference? |
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My lawyer specifically explained to use Schedule A for updates. Quoted:
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An executed trust is only to be amended with additional documents, i.e. Assignment of Property. An assignment of property is not an amendment to a trust, nor is it in any way part of the trust. A schedule (whether called "Schedule A" or something else) is part of the trust, but is broken out into a separate document specifically so that it can be updated/amended/added to without changing the rest of the trust. If it were intended to be a static document, recording only what the trust was funded with at its creation, there would be no need (indeed, no reason) for it to be a separate document at all--it would simply be one of the articles of the trust document. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect assets you currently possess, not assets you have yet to acquire. This is why the Schedule A. ETA: In true estate planning, trusts are used to protect and pass assets you currently possess and assets you have yet to acquire. Or do you believe that once someone creates a trust, their property no longer changes? Like I said, it's a closed document, it's not opened ended. You add assets acquired after execution using an Assignment of Property. My lawyer specifically explained to use Schedule A for updates. So did mine. This is also coming from the person who didn't think trusts could have an EIN number so take it for what it's worth. Now I'm not saying he doesn't know anything, but I am saying I'd rather trust my lawyer than him. Different trusts can be written different ways. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong, but I think it's pretty clear that there isn't one way to write a trust up. |
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ok, I was freaked out there for a bit. thanks for the clarification, I am very new to the nfa game. So another question about schedule A, I have two form 1's pending right now. when they get approved do I have to list them on the schedule a for future reference? Yes, add your NFA assets to Schedule A after the forms are approved. |
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So another question about schedule A, I have two form 1's pending right now. when they get approved do I have to list them on the schedule a for future reference? What did the lawyer who prepared your trust say to do? If you didn't have a lawyer prepare your trust, this is why some people do. The problem is that nobody here can tell you with authority what to do, because none of us know what your trust says. Maybe they need to be added to the Schedule A, maybe they need an assignment of property form, maybe you need something else. Adding them to Schedule A once they're approved is a good bet, but nobody here can say for sure. |
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What did the lawyer who prepared your trust say to do? If you didn't have a lawyer prepare your trust, this is why some people do. The problem is that nobody here can tell you with authority what to do, because none of us know what your trust says. Maybe they need to be added to the Schedule A, maybe they need an assignment of property form, maybe you need something else. Adding them to Schedule A once they're approved is a good bet, but nobody here can say for sure. This. |
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Here is how my Schedule A is worded.
"Schedule A Property Placed in Trust 1. Various firearms classified as "Title II" weapons by the National Firearms Act of 1934 and related Public law. Including, but not limited to: machineguns, silencers, short-barreled rifles, short-barreled shotguns, and AOW (Any Other Weapon: Cane guns, Pen guns, disguised firearms). Each device should be accompanied by a form, as issued by the BATFE, showing legal registration and transfer and affixed with a stamp showing a transfer tax paid, if necessary." Given how it's written, I don't individually schedule the items. Keeps it simple. |
look. Said he hasn't even before and has never had a form kicked back because of it.
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