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Posted: 1/28/2014 10:58:21 AM EDT
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So i have a trust and it says 1. This trust is known as (Example) Skytrooper Sandbag Omega Revocable living trust
Ive been asking around and it seems i can abbreviate on the engraving.. This is what the trust maker and gun store is saying For example i could put S.S.O Trust onto the firearm if i wanted too Just wanted to double check this Thanks |
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I have gotten alot of different answer... This is why the NFA needs to be abolished If you want an actual relevant answer, call the ATF and ask them. They'll tell you that it is necessary to engrave your full trust name. That your entire NC gunstore might be in violation wouldn't surprise me - lots of people do lots of stupid things all the time. I'd recommend you amend your trust document so that the official name is "SSORLT" instead of "Skytrooper Sandbag Omega Revocable living trust" |
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If you want an actual relevant answer, call the ATF and ask them. They'll tell you that it is necessary to engrave your full trust name. That your entire NC gunstore might be in violation wouldn't surprise me - lots of people do lots of stupid things all the time. I'd recommend you amend your trust document so that the official name is "SSORLT" instead of "Skytrooper Sandbag Omega Revocable living trust" Quoted:
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I have gotten alot of different answer... This is why the NFA needs to be abolished If you want an actual relevant answer, call the ATF and ask them. They'll tell you that it is necessary to engrave your full trust name. That your entire NC gunstore might be in violation wouldn't surprise me - lots of people do lots of stupid things all the time. I'd recommend you amend your trust document so that the official name is "SSORLT" instead of "Skytrooper Sandbag Omega Revocable living trust" Its my full legal name - i just used that as an example |
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The documents I've seen say the only abbreviation is the commonly accepted ones for the state. People used to use RLT for Revocable Living Trust, but ATF has cracked down on that recently.
One note...EFORMS has a maximum of 50 characters allowed, so even though you need to have the full same engraved, you may be forced to shorten/abbreviated when eFiling. |
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The documents I've seen say the only abbreviation is the commonly accepted ones for the state. People used to use RLT for Revocable Living Trust, but ATF has cracked down on that recently. One note...EFORMS has a maximum of 50 characters allowed, so even though you need to have the full same engraved, you may be forced to shorten/abbreviated when eFiling. Ive heard of folks just putting Trust and not RLT Its all guess work |
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Ive heard of folks just putting Trust and not RLT Its all guess work Quoted:
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The documents I've seen say the only abbreviation is the commonly accepted ones for the state. People used to use RLT for Revocable Living Trust, but ATF has cracked down on that recently. One note...EFORMS has a maximum of 50 characters allowed, so even though you need to have the full same engraved, you may be forced to shorten/abbreviated when eFiling. Ive heard of folks just putting Trust and not RLT Its all guess work Try contacting the BATFE. There is no guess work involved when you go to the source. |
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Ive heard of folks just putting Trust and not RLT That's fine if that's the name of the trust--if it's the "Smith Trust" in the trust documents, that's what gets engraved for your Form 1 items. If it's the "Smith Revocable Living Trust", that's what gets engraved. If you've used the latter name, you can't engrave "Smith RLT" or "Smith Trust" and be in compliance. There's no legal requirement for "Revocable Living" to be in the name of the trust, nor for your name (or any part of it) to be there. So, if you're planning on doing any Form 1 items, or even think there's a chance you might, it's to your benefit to have a fairly short trust name. |
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I talked directly with ATF Tech Branch about this a couple weeks ago. You CANNOT shorten your trust name in ANY WAY.
If your trust is "The John Quincy Public Revocable Living Trust" you CANNOT engrave any of the following (I asked): John Q Public Revocable Living Trust JQ Public Revocable Living Trust John Quincy Public RLT John Quincy Public Trust etcetera. The only acceptable engraving is "John Quincy Public Revocable Living Trust." |
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Was that a YES you can or a NO you cant.. Id imagine all the people at this store (which is one of the most popular in NC) would be in violation of the law then Quoted:
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No. If you want a shorter name to engrave, give your trust a shorter name. Was that a YES you can or a NO you cant.. Id imagine all the people at this store (which is one of the most popular in NC) would be in violation of the law then and??? so it makes it right. |
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and??? so it makes it right. Quoted:
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No. If you want a shorter name to engrave, give your trust a shorter name. Was that a YES you can or a NO you cant.. Id imagine all the people at this store (which is one of the most popular in NC) would be in violation of the law then and??? so it makes it right. No.. but you dont think that raises some concerns ?? alot of folks are about to get screwed |
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Yeah, I specifically named my trust something short keeping in mind the engraving requirements. Also as community service I should note there are engraving requirements as to size and depth of the letters and numbers and the NFA handbook has font requirements, not law but I don't know what you'd call it. Roman letters and arabic numerals.
Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.
7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. |
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Ok, I am in the process of having my trust made and am curious. If I name my trust; "AGENT-X FAMILY REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST", then will I have to have that entire title marked on any lower or just the "AGENT-X FAMILY" portion (leaving off REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST? If so maybe I should just name it AGENT-X FAMILY TRUST.
Sorry for hi jacking the thread |
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Ok, I am in the process of having my trust made and am curious. If I name my trust; "AGENT-X FAMILY REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST", then will I have to have that entire title marked on any lower or just the "AGENT-X FAMILY" portion (leaving off REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST? If so maybe I should just name it AGENT-X FAMILY TRUST. Sorry for hi jacking the thread Leave "revocable living" out of the name. It doesn't need to be there. Hell, you don't need "family" in there either. You declare what type of trust it is the "body" of the trust. Just go with "Agent-X Trust". |
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Sorry for hi jacking the thread The answer's already in the thread. You must engrave the complete name of the trust, with no abbreviations. If your trust is called the "AGENT-X FAMILY REVOCABLE LIVING TRUST", that's what you must engrave--not "AGENT-X FAMILY", "AGENT-X FAMILY RLT," AGENT-X FAMILY TRUST", or anything else. If you want to engrave something shorter, name the trust something shorter. |
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Try contacting the BATFE. There is no guess work involved when you go to the source. Yes there is; there is usually more guesswork if you go to the source. Somebody on the phone will answer a question they don't know the answer to, and confuse things even more. Their letters even contradict themselves. If you need an 'official' answer, it's in the CFR. Can't get more official than that. OP, engrave your big dog-choking trust name on the barrel, frame or receiver, and then bust out a new trust on willmaker. Give it a nice engravable name like '007 trust', and call it a day. |
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Yeah, I specifically named my trust something short keeping in mind the engraving requirements. Also as community service I should note there are engraving requirements as to size and depth of the letters and numbers and the NFA handbook has font requirements, not law but I don't know what you'd call it. Roman letters and arabic numerals. Quoted:
Yeah, I specifically named my trust something short keeping in mind the engraving requirements. Also as community service I should note there are engraving requirements as to size and depth of the letters and numbers and the NFA handbook has font requirements, not law but I don't know what you'd call it. Roman letters and arabic numerals. Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.
7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. Part in red only applies to serial numbers, not to makers marks (trust, corporate or name engraving). By 'Roman' letters, they mean you can't use Cryillic, or Chinese Characters. You can use Calibri, or Times New Roman, or Copperplate Gothic Bold (or whatever legible type face you like). |
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Yeah, I specifically named my trust something short keeping in mind the engraving requirements. Also as community service I should note there are engraving requirements as to size and depth of the letters and numbers and the NFA handbook has font requirements, not law but I don't know what you'd call it. Roman letters and arabic numerals. Quoted:
Yeah, I specifically named my trust something short keeping in mind the engraving requirements. Also as community service I should note there are engraving requirements as to size and depth of the letters and numbers and the NFA handbook has font requirements, not law but I don't know what you'd call it. Roman letters and arabic numerals. Section 7.4 The identification of firearms.
7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. I error on the side of caution and engrave my lower with the full name, city and state of my trust. |
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Here is what ATF's NFA Branch says: http://www.hunt101.com/data/500/trustengravingnotice.jpg And here is the problem. Some people have had problems with leaving 4h blank and being returned for revisions. I personally have left 4h blank and have had 4 form 1s approved with zero issues. It all depends on the examiner unfortunately. Also, If you can manage to get your form approved with 4h blank.....according to one of the largest class 3 dealers here in Florida...you do NOT need to engrave your lower. Now personally i am not comfortable with this but I do know of SEVERAL people that have never once engraved (4h blank on their form 1) and have never had an issue and work for this mentioned dealer. So I dont think that calling ATF on this subject will do you any good |
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