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Posted: 12/4/2011 2:33:10 PM EDT
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As an experiment, if you bought a PS MG and sent a Form 4 to the ATF to transfer it and they approved it by mistake, would you get in trouble for possession? Also, same thing on a Form 1? |
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If they approved it by mistake and then catch their error (which they will) they will then, at best, confiscate the weapon and at worst charge you with posession of an unregistered machine gun. Fradulent use of a tax form would be criminal in itself and they will argue you knew what you were doing.
Best outcome is confiscation and successful defense with a 100k lawyer bill. Worst is 20 years in club fed. |
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Same thing with a transfer of a pre-dealer sample to a non-dealer.
This isn't always true. I have seen several Pre samples on Form 4's that the ATF missed (usually SBR's, SBS's and suppressors though I have seen one machine gun). Generally if they approve a Form 4 on a presample they will let the non-dealer keep it, but when they transfer it it will have the same pre-sample restrictions. Also I don't think you get in "trouble" for submitting a Form 1 for a machine gun, I just think they will deny it. Even if it somehow got accidentally approved, I don't think I would risk actually manufacturing it! |
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Quoted:
It would not be unregistered if they approved it. Nor would they get you for tax evasion because you would have paid the tax. Quoted:
confiscate the weapon and at worst charge you with posession of an unregistered machine gun. Since you sent in the paperwork with intent to defraud they can say that the MG was never legally registered, the .gov has done worse. Considering the tech branch reverses itself constantly, they can justify anything. Its like saying you own a house that you obtained through false paperwork, it was never yours legally since you broke the law to get it. Even if you paid the tax, they will argue that you filled the form out fraudulently and will charge you with tax fraud, not evasion IMO. The least of your worries would be a tax evasion charge. If someone is willing to try and gets it approved by accident and then declares it publicly we can at least see what they will do...... |
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Quoted:
It would not be unregistered if they approved it. Nor would they get you for tax evasion because you would have paid the tax. Quoted:
confiscate the weapon and at worst charge you with posession of an unregistered machine gun. They *may* not press charges to save face and just confiscate the weapon. However, end of the day you are in possession of a machine gun that is illegal for you to possess. Essentially, the way 922(o) reads is that ALL machineguns are illegal unless owned by a government agency or they were lawfully possessed before May 19, 1986 (with an easter egg allowing SOT's of various ilk to own within the guidelines). If they did press charges, you would almost certainly be convicted, especially after essentially perjuring yourself on a federal tax form. Good luck, but I won't be in line to try it. |
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15. Transferee’s Certification (See instruction 2e) I______________________________, have a reasonable necessity to (Name of Transferee) possess the machinegun, short-barreled rifle, short-barreled shotgun, or destructive device described on this application for the following reason(s) To supply Mexian Cartels and my possession of the device or weapon would be consistent with public safety (18 U.S.C. 922(b) (4) and 27 CFR 478.98). |
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Quoted:
Same thing with a transfer of a pre-dealer sample to a non-dealer.
This isn't always true. I have seen several Pre samples on Form 4's that the ATF missed (usually SBR's, SBS's and suppressors though I have seen one machine gun). Generally if they approve a Form 4 on a presample they will let the non-dealer keep it, but when they transfer it it will have the same pre-sample restrictions. Also I don't think you get in "trouble" for submitting a Form 1 for a machine gun, I just think they will deny it. Even if it somehow got accidentally approved, I don't think I would risk actually manufacturing it! Why can't I be that lucky? |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Same thing with a transfer of a pre-dealer sample to a non-dealer.
This isn't always true. I have seen several Pre samples on Form 4's that the ATF missed (usually SBR's, SBS's and suppressors though I have seen one machine gun). Generally if they approve a Form 4 on a presample they will let the non-dealer keep it, but when they transfer it it will have the same pre-sample restrictions. Also I don't think you get in "trouble" for submitting a Form 1 for a machine gun, I just think they will deny it. Even if it somehow got accidentally approved, I don't think I would risk actually manufacturing it! Why can't I be that lucky? Yeah but a pre-sample MG is already in the registery, also the prices on them are maybe about 2/3 - 1/2 a regular transferable. So you wouldn't be too lucky. Now I have read on here before about a Form 1 being approved for a MG in the last 10 years or so. The ATF caught it after it happened showed up at the guys house and demanded he reutrn the approved form and to confirm that he had not actually did the conversion yet. I'm sure they would have to refund the money for the stamp. It has also been mentioned that since Heller and other recent 2nd amendment victories at the supreme court level that a few people should submit Form 1 for MG and then file a law suit to try to over turn 922 (o). |
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Yeah but a pre-sample MG is already in the registery, also the prices on them are maybe about 2/3 - 1/2 a regular transferable. So you wouldn't be too lucky. Getting an all german MP5 for $7-9000 is pretty lucky in my book. Getting a reimported Thompson for $5-7000 is even luckier. |
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Quoted: Maybe the best approach would be to try and Form 1 something that is not currently available in the registry like a SCAR or ACR? That way you could argue that there is an outright ban on new technology?It has also been mentioned that since Heller and other recent 2nd amendment victories at the supreme court level that a few people should submit Form 1 for MG and then file a law suit to try to over turn 922 (o). |
| Under Penalties of Perjury, I Declare that I have examined this application, including accompanying documents, and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true, accurate and complete and the making and possession of the firearm described above would not constitute a violation of Chapter 44, Title 18, U.S.C., Chapter 53, Title 26, U.S.C., or any provisions of State or local law. |
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Quoted: As an experiment, if you bought a PS MG and sent a Form 4 to the ATF to transfer it and they approved it by mistake, would you get in trouble for possession? Read the certification you are signing. Under Penalties of Perjury, I Declare that I have examined this application, and to the best of my knowledge and belief it is true, correct and complete, and that the transfer of the described firearm to the transferee and receipt and possession of it by the transferee are not prohibited by the provisions of Chapter 44, Title 18, United States Code; Chapter 53, Title 26, United States Code; or Title VII of the Omnibus Crime Control and Safe Streets Act, as amended; or any provisions of State or local law. |
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Quoted: It has also been mentioned that since Heller and other recent 2nd amendment victories at the supreme court level that a few people should submit Form 1 for MG and then file a law suit to try to over turn 922 (o). Pretty much the strategy the Pro-Abortion folks went with after Roe. Sue anybody who did not give in completely. I agree with it. Just about every gun law on the books is based on 2A not being an individual right.... |
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Quoted:
Same thing with a transfer of a pre-dealer sample to a non-dealer.
This isn't always true. I have seen several Pre samples on Form 4's that the ATF missed (usually SBR's, SBS's and suppressors though I have seen one machine gun). Generally if they approve a Form 4 on a presample they will let the non-dealer keep it, but when they transfer it it will have the same pre-sample restrictions. Also I don't think you get in "trouble" for submitting a Form 1 for a machine gun, I just think they will deny it. Even if it somehow got accidentally approved, I don't think I would risk actually manufacturing it! Right, but he wants to make the MG. |
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