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Posted: 9/16/2011 7:30:14 AM EDT
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Hi all,
I was just asked about someone who supposedly has some M16's for sale. Apparently her late husband had quite a collection of AR's and M16's. The guy asking me doesn't know if she has ATF forms on the guns, (or if they are really M-16's.) My questions are: 1) If they are not registered lowers/sears, but are assembled (I know they would be illegal) would it be OK to disassemble the lowers and part them out? 2) If we can part the lowers for her, would the drilled lowers need to be destroyed or could they be sold as regular AR lowers? Thanks in advance. |
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First, check that they're really full-autos. If so, try to find any registration papers.
If they're unregistered full-autos (made by modifying the lower receivers), strip them of all parts and surrender the stripped lower receivers to the ATF. (They're worthless to you anyway.) If the receivers have not been modified but they're FA by virtue of unregistered drop-in auto sears or Lightning Links, remove the DIAS or LL and turn them in to the ATF. Also remove any other M16 (FA) parts from the FCG. The lower receivers are then ordinary semiauto receivers. An unregistered modified receiver (hole drilled for the auto sear, etc.) is contraband and can never be sold legally. Even if you welded up the hole it wouldn't do you any good, because "once a machine gun, always a machine gun." These are just my opinions. Check with the ATF to be sure. |
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http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_17/322347_So_you_found_an_MG_in_the_attic______.html
That Post covers what to do if you find a full auto gun. Don't involve the atf until you are sure they don't have paperwork. |
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Quoted:
First, check that they're really full-autos. If so, try to find any registration papers. If they're unregistered full-autos (made by modifying the lower receivers), strip them of all parts and surrender the stripped lower receivers to the ATF. (They're worthless to you anyway.) If the receivers have not been modified but they're FA by virtue of unregistered drop-in auto sears or Lightning Links, remove the DIAS or LL and turn them in to the ATF. Also remove any other M16 (FA) parts from the FCG. The lower receivers are then ordinary semiauto receivers. An unregistered modified receiver (hole drilled for the auto sear, etc.) is contraband and can never be sold legally. Even if you welded up the hole it wouldn't do you any good, because "once a machine gun, always a machine gun." These are just my opinions. Check with the ATF to be sure. Seelbo, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy. Where in Pa are you? Or the guns. I can get you in touch with people who are in your area that would be willing to help. |
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Seelbo, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy.
Please explain what it is about my post that you object to. Honestly, I'd like to know if (and how) I'm wrong. The OP should not have any contact with the ATF. All contact should be through his attorney. The link posted above explains it all. |
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Quoted:
Seelbo, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy.
Please explain what it is about my post that you object to. Honestly, I'd like to know if (and how) I'm wrong. Like bubbles said, the owner of the guns, or seelbo, never want to contact the ATF themselves. The last thing they should be thinking about is destroying or parting out the guns. First is going to be looking for paper work. If they have gone through the house 3 times and still can't find anything, then its get a good lawyer who knows NFA stuff to contact the ATF to check to see if the guns are in the registery. Pending that, then it would be time to figure out what will be done with the guns. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Seelbo, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy.
Please explain what it is about my post that you object to. Honestly, I'd like to know if (and how) I'm wrong. Like bubbles said, the owner of the guns, or seelbo, never want to contact the ATF themselves. The last thing they should be thinking about is destroying or parting out the guns. First is going to be looking for paper work. If they have gone through the house 3 times and still can't find anything, then its get a good lawyer who knows NFA stuff to contact the ATF to check to see if the guns are in the registery. Pending that, then it would be time to figure out what will be done with the guns. This seems like sound advice. I'd be surprised if there is anything to this but I am trying to get some ideas as to what should be done if there's an iota of truth to this. Besides, this woman is going to get screwed by someone if these are legit and she doesn't know what they are really worth. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Seelbo, whatever you do, don't listen to this guy.
Please explain what it is about my post that you object to. Honestly, I'd like to know if (and how) I'm wrong. Like bubbles said, the owner of the guns, or seelbo, never want to contact the ATF themselves. The last thing they should be thinking about is destroying or parting out the guns. First is going to be looking for paper work. If they have gone through the house 3 times and still can't find anything, then its get a good lawyer who knows NFA stuff to contact the ATF to check to see if the guns are in the registery. Pending that, then it would be time to figure out what will be done with the guns. This seems like sound advice. I'd be surprised if there is anything to this but I am trying to get some ideas as to what should be done if there's an iota of truth to this. Besides, this woman is going to get screwed by someone if these are legit and she doesn't know what they are really worth. I sent you a message on here, if you need any help, feel free. I'd hate to see guns get tossed that just had the paperwork misplaced. |
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Like bubbles said, the owner of the guns, or seelbo, never want to contact the ATF themselves. The last thing they should be thinking about is destroying or parting out the guns. First is going to be looking for paper work. If they have gone through the house 3 times and still can't find anything, then its get a good lawyer who knows NFA stuff to contact the ATF to check to see if the guns are in the registery. Pending that, then it would be time to figure out what will be done with the guns.
Well, the second thing that I suggested (after determining if the guns, in fact, were full autos) was to search for registration papers. The next steps that I suggested were conditioned on not finding evidence of registration, after a reasonable or exhaustive search (depending on how much effort can be put into it). Now keep in mind that the OP, as the facts were presented, was not the owner of the guns, but was acting as a "helpful advisor." The goals here are to (a) keep the owner (widow) out of trouble, and (b) recover as much value as possible. Hiring a lawyer is going to cost, and the results of him dealing with the ATF (when the family isn't able to come up with registration papers on their own, after a thorough search) are, frankly, unlikely to be favorable. Anyway, hiring the lawyer is not an automatic decision, but has to be based on the lawyer's fees versus the probability of success. Regarding the probability of success (in finding a record at ATF), the family should know if the deceased owner of the guns was the type that would have complied rigorously with the registration requirements, or was the type that would bend the rules and keep contraband around. Finally, it should be noted that M16s are easy to strip down to their parts, and this stripping down is easily reversible. That is, nothing is lost by reducing the guns to bare lower receivers (or DIAS or LL, if that should be the case). In case the ATF comes around looking for contraband guns, then –– and who knows what information they may have –– the offending parts can be turned over without the loss of the rest. I have to say from my days as a Class III dealer that the ATF people I came in contact with were pretty reasonable. They'll play nice with you if you don't act like a hardass yourself. |
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I want to add that there are some indications (from the markings) whether "found" M16-type weapons are likely to have been registered or unregistered. First of all, any factory M16 (such as a Colt) marked as such, would have been registered. Secondly, a conversion of a semiauto to FA by a licensed manufacturer would have the markings of both the original maker of the receiver and the converter, and also would been registered. (For example, a Sendra receiver made into a FA by RIA would have both the Sendra and the RIA markings.) Likewise, a semiauto receiver made into a FA by an individual using a Form 1 would have the individual's name and address engraved on it. The problem guns are those having semiauto receivers with the machine work done to convert them to FA, but with no additional markings to indicate who did it. Of course, a gun originally registered as a FA could have been stolen at some point and the legal chain of possession broken, but this is unlikely given that the authorities would have been notified and a big fuss made over it. DIAS's and LL's are easy –– those with serial numbers were likely registered, and those without, not. The conclusion is this: FA guns with the proper markings may be worth pursuing with the help of a lawyer if the registration papers are not found, but those without such markings probably are not.
I'd still strip the parts (at least temporarily) pending the outcome. |
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Quoted:
(snip) First of all, any factory M16 (such as a Colt) marked as such, would have been registered. Not true. In fact, the majority of factory M16s, including Colts, are not in the NFA Registry, because they were made for U.S. military contracts, and the U.S. government is exempt from registering its NFA items. Only those built for LE sales were registered. (snip) Secondly, a conversion of a semiauto to FA by a licensed manufacturer would have the markings of both the original maker of the receiver and the converter, and also would been registered. (For example, a Sendra receiver made into a FA by RIA would have both the Sendra and the RIA markings.) Likewise, a semiauto receiver made into a FA by an individual using a Form 1 would have the individual's name and address engraved on it.(snip) Not neccessarily. Prior to the May 19, 1986, there were no rules or regs specifying engraving size, depth or placement ... and in addition, many Form 1 makers did not follow through with the engraving requirement. Of the 07/02 manufacturers who did conversions, most marked them freehand with a vibrapen, and often in hidden places like underneath the pistol grip, on the receiver tang. So they are easy to miss, and in addition, many have had the vibrapen markings covered up by refinishing in the decades since they were built. I'd still strip the parts (at least temporarily) pending the outcome. I agree. |
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Not true. In fact, the majority of factory M16s, including Colts, are not in the NFA Registry, because they were made for U.S. military contracts, and the U.S. government is exempt from registering its NFA items. Only those built for LE sales were registered.
Yes, that's correct. The question then becomes how many stolen military factory M16's are in private hands. I would guess not very many. As a threshold matter, I think it's still worthwhile to legally pursue a factory M16 found without papers, because there's a good chance such a gun, in civilian hands, was registered at one time. A Colt is obviously a more likely candidate than one from the other contractors, since none of them (other than Colt) made legal civilian sales. The few legal rewelds from the other contractors are very likely to have papers with them. Not neccessarily. Prior to the May 19, 1986, there were no rules or regs specifying engraving size, depth or placement ... and in addition, many Form 1 makers did not follow through with the engraving requirement. Of the 07/02 manufacturers who did conversions, most marked them freehand with a vibrapen, and often in hidden places like underneath the pistol grip, on the receiver tang. So they are easy to miss, and in addition, many have had the vibrapen markings covered up by refinishing in the decades since they were built.
That's a good point. I have an early SGW receiver, machined out of bar stock, which was converted to FA by RIA. The "RIA," as well as the serial number, is very shallowly engraved, and actually has to be held up to the light at an angle to be visible. On the other hand, I also have a Sendra forged receiver, also converted to FA by RIA, which has the markings (including the full RIA logo) very clearly roll-marked. So YMMV. Here's where you have to look at the provenance of the gun and the track record of the former owner in deterrmining how far to go in tracing it. |
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