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Posted: 3/11/2010 7:25:27 AM EDT
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If I live in one state and want to take a machine gun to a range in another state to shoot....... are there specific proceedures to follow in order to do this? What if I have a trust? |
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If I live in one state and want to take a machine gun to a range in another state to shoot....... are there specific proceedures to follow in order to do this? What if I have a trust? As long as the NFA item is legal in the state you are going to, yes you can take it, but you must have an approved 5320.20 for a MG. Doesn't matter if it's on a trust, etc... just have that paperwork with you just like if you were going to a local range. The 5320.20's are normally faster at getting approval, and the ATF will approve date ranges up to one year, so you could put in one from April 1, 2010 to March 31, 2011. Others will be along to say more. |
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If I live in one state and want to take a machine gun to a range in another state to shoot....... are there specific proceedures to follow in order to do this? What if I have a trust? As long as the NFA item is legal in the state you are going to, yes you can take it, but you must have an approved 5320.20 for a MG. Doesn't matter if it's on a trust, etc... just have that paperwork with you just like if you were going to a local range. The 5320.20's are normally faster at getting approval, and the ATF will approve date ranges up to one year, so you could put in one from April 1, 2010 to March 31, 2011. Others will be along to say more. what he said |
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If I live in one state and want to take a machine gun to a range in another state to shoot....... are there specific proceedures to follow in order to do this? What if I have a trust? As long as the NFA item is legal in the state you are going to, yes you can take it, but you must have an approved 5320.20 for a MG. (snip) You also need an approved 5320.20 for SBRs, SBS's and DDs, as well as MGs. The only NFA items which do not require 5320.20's are suppressors and AOWs. |
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Here's a link to the form on the ATF's website. I like to save it to my PC, fill out all the info but the dates and then save that as another copy so when the time comes, I can plug in the dates, print and mail.
ATF Form 5320.20 |
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Thanks a lot for the info. I was told the other day that if I go the trust route that there may not be any federal provision for transporting them to another state. You were told wrong. A trust is a legal entity, and has the same regulations and rights as a human entity. Thrre is zero dif regarding interstate transport (and most other NFA regs). |
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Here's a link to the form on the ATF's website. I like to save it to my PC, fill out all the info but the dates and then save that as another copy so when the time comes, I can plug in the dates, print and mail. ATF Form 5320.20 Also, ATF will approve a date range of up to 1 year. So you can use one form for multiple trips during the course of that year. |
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this is actually a good thread.
I am taking my 4 MGs to a shoot in VT in July so I will be doing a 5320 form too. Question....... if I am taking my 4 MGs do I have to do 4 5320 forms or can I just do one form and put all 4 MGs on it and get approval that way? Rob |
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this is actually a good thread. I am taking my 4 MGs to a shoot in VT in July so I will be doing a 5320 form too. Question....... if I am taking my 4 MGs do I have to do 4 5320 forms or can I just do one form and put all 4 MGs on it and get approval that way? Rob There is places on the 5320.20 for more than 1 firearm. I recently filed one for 1 SBR and 2 Suppressors all on the same page and it was approved no problem. |
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this is actually a good thread. I am taking my 4 MGs to a shoot in VT in July so I will be doing a 5320 form too. Question....... if I am taking my 4 MGs do I have to do 4 5320 forms or can I just do one form and put all 4 MGs on it and get approval that way? Rob Yes, on the instructions on page 2 it states that you can use the multiple blanks for multiple firearms. If you need more blanks than on the form, you would submit a separate form. |
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if I am taking my 4 MGs do I have to do 4 5320 forms or can I just do one form and put all 4 MGs on it and get approval that way? There are three lines on the form. I got a little creative with adobe and put a 4th line on the form, and these have always been approved. Before they switched to the current version, there was an electronic version of the old form that had been modified to 5 lines. These were always approved too. |
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If you are fortunate enough to need a lot of extra lines, you can write "see attached list" on the form and them make up a list of the firearms you plan to take (or might possibly take- nobody says you HAVE to). I use a format with columns like the form and make sure all the info is provided just like on the front of the form. If it's stored in electronic form, it's easy to add and subtract items.
I just got mine approved for the Eden shoot this way, compliments of Mr. Shipman. |
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If I live in one state and want to take a machine gun to a range in another state to shoot....... are there specific proceedures to follow in order to do this? What if I have a trust? As long as the NFA item is legal in the state you are going to, yes you can take it, but you must have an approved 5320.20 for a MG. (snip) You also need an approved 5320.20 for SBRs, SBS's and DDs, as well as MGs. The only NFA items which do not require 5320.20's are suppressors and AOWs. SBS aren't considered AOW? What is then? |
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AOW is sort of a grab-bag of oddities that don't readily fit into other categories, yet are "evil" enough to require registration in case we dumb old citizens want to get in trouble with them. I think you are confusing the shorty shotguns like the Serbu Super-Shorty or the Ithaca Stakeout which are legally considered to be smooth-bored pistols, not shotguns. A short-barrelled shotgun will have a buttstock, which is part of the legal definition of "shotgun". If the stock is not present (and never was), then legally it can't be considered a shotgn, short-barrelled or not. It's a pistol, but since the definition of pistol includes a rifled barrel, it isn't quite a pistol, either.
Here's the actual language describing AOW's: (e) Any other weapon. The term 'any other weapon' means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. |
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AOW is sort of a grab-bag of oddities that don't readily fit into other categories, yet are "evil" enough to require registration in case we dumb old citizens want to get in trouble with them. I think you are confusing the shorty shotguns like the Serbu Super-Shorty or the Ithaca Stakeout which are legally considered to be smooth-bored pistols, not shotguns. A short-barrelled shotgun will have a buttstock, which is part of the legal definition of "shotgun". If the stock is not present (and never was), then legally it can't be considered a shotgn, short-barrelled or not. It's a pistol, but since the definition of pistol includes a rifled barrel, it isn't quite a pistol, either. Here's the actual language describing AOW's: (e) Any other weapon. The term 'any other weapon' means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. Looks to me like certain SBS are AOWS |
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AOW is sort of a grab-bag of oddities that don't readily fit into other categories, yet are "evil" enough to require registration in case we dumb old citizens want to get in trouble with them. I think you are confusing the shorty shotguns like the Serbu Super-Shorty or the Ithaca Stakeout which are legally considered to be smooth-bored pistols, not shotguns. A short-barrelled shotgun will have a buttstock, which is part of the legal definition of "shotgun". If the stock is not present (and never was), then legally it can't be considered a shotgn, short-barrelled or not. It's a pistol, but since the definition of pistol includes a rifled barrel, it isn't quite a pistol, either. Here's the actual language describing AOW's: (e) Any other weapon. The term 'any other weapon' means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. Looks to me like certain SBS are AOWS The reason CERTAIN short barreled "shotguns" are considered AOW's and not SBS's is because they do not have, and never did have a buttstock on them, therefore are not considered to be a shotgun since they are not made to be fired from the shoulder. If a shotgun or SBS ever had a buttstock on it, it can not be considered an AOW, it must be registered as an SBS. Even if this buttstock was prior to registration. This is the same principle as as AR pistol. If you have a stripped receiver you can build it into a pistol. If the receiver has EVER had a buttstock on it, it can not be made into a pistol again. |
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AOW is sort of a grab-bag of oddities that don't readily fit into other categories, yet are "evil" enough to require registration in case we dumb old citizens want to get in trouble with them. I think you are confusing the shorty shotguns like the Serbu Super-Shorty or the Ithaca Stakeout which are legally considered to be smooth-bored pistols, not shotguns. A short-barrelled shotgun will have a buttstock, which is part of the legal definition of "shotgun". If the stock is not present (and never was), then legally it can't be considered a shotgn, short-barrelled or not. It's a pistol, but since the definition of pistol includes a rifled barrel, it isn't quite a pistol, either. Here's the actual language describing AOW's: (e) Any other weapon. The term 'any other weapon' means any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. Looks to me like certain SBS are AOWS The reason CERTAIN short barreled "shotguns" are considered AOW's and not SBS's is because they do not have, and never did have a buttstock on them, therefore are not considered to be a shotgun since they are not made to be fired from the shoulder. If a shotgun or SBS ever had a buttstock on it, it can not be considered an AOW, it must be registered as an SBS. Even if this buttstock was prior to registration. I've highlighted an example of a shoulder-stocked firearm that has a shotgun barrel that is an AOW. |
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According to the official federal definitions:
–– A shotgun is a firearm, designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a smooth bore. If you shorten the barrel of one to under 18", it becomes a Short-Barrelled Shotgun under federal law. –– A rifle is a firearm, designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a rifled bore. If you shorten the barrel of one to under 16", it becomes a Short-Barrelled Rifle under federal law. But a combination firearm with both rifled and smoothbore barrels fits neither definition, thus under federal law it is neither a rifle nor a shotgun. Thus, when you reduce the barrels to a length under 18", it falls into the "Any Other Weapon" category. And a firearm with a smooth bore and a pistol grip, from the factory, was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, thus under the law it is not a shotgun. Thus, when you shorten the barrel to under 18", it falls into the "Any Other Weapon" category. |
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According to the official federal definitions: –– A shotgun is a firearm, designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a smooth bore. If you shorten the barrel of one to under 18", it becomes a Short-Barrelled Shotgun under federal law. –– A rifle is a firearm, designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a rifled bore. If you shorten the barrel of one to under 16", it becomes a Short-Barrelled Rifle under federal law. But a combination firearm with both rifled and smoothbore barrels fits neither definition, thus under federal law it is neither a rifle nor a shotgun. Thus, when you reduce the barrels to a length under 18" (but at least 12"), it falls into the "Any Other Weapon" category. And a firearm with a smooth bore and a pistol grip, from the factory, was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, thus under the law it is not a shotgun. Thus, when you shorten the barrel to under 18" (but at least 12"), it falls into the "Any Other Weapon" category. 18" but no shorter than 12" or can it be 8" ? |
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According to the official federal definitions: –– A shotgun is a firearm, designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a smooth bore. If you shorten the barrel of one to under 18", it becomes a Short-Barrelled Shotgun under federal law. –– A rifle is a firearm, designed to be fired from the shoulder, with a rifled bore. If you shorten the barrel of one to under 16", it becomes a Short-Barrelled Rifle under federal law. But a combination firearm with both rifled and smoothbore barrels fits neither definition, thus under federal law it is neither a rifle nor a shotgun. Thus, when you reduce the barrels to a length under 18" (but at least 12"), it falls into the "Any Other Weapon" category. And a firearm with a smooth bore and a pistol grip, from the factory, was not designed to be fired from the shoulder, thus under the law it is not a shotgun. Thus, when you shorten the barrel to under 18" (but at least 12"), it falls into the "Any Other Weapon" category. 18" but no shorter than 12" or can it be 8" ? That's an interesting question. First, some history may help explain: These definitions were written in the 1930-34 period. They were designed to control "concealable" firearms: Initially the NFA bill included all handguns, but Congress wisely dropped those from the bill when they realized how many law-abiding handgun owners there were in this country, and how they would react to a ban in the voting booth. Similarly, in those days, many rural residents still fed their families by legal trapping. It was so common, there was a whole class of firearms designed for trappers to dispatch wounded, trapped animals –– combination guns (shotgun& rifle barrels) designed and sold for that use. The usual barrel length was 14", though some were as short as 12", and others were 16" or so. But Congress didn't want these used in urban crimes, so they were included in the overall ban. The result, of course, was that no one bothered to register their existing "combo AOWs," and the manufacturers shut down production because no one would pay the $200. And while few voters objected to the rest of the NFA's provisions, a lot of them were upset about trappers' guns, and the legal threat to those who used them legally. So in 1938, Congress passed Public Law 75-651, which created the specific description of 12-to-18" combo guns, and then reduced the transfer fee for AOW's to $1. (They further refined federal law covering such guns in Public Law 79-177, passed in 1945.) The $1 was later raised to $5. Now, to get to your question: ––A combination shotgun with barrels over 18" is a Title 1 firearm; a combo gun with barrels less than 18" but more than 12" is an AOW. So what is a combination gun with barrels under 12"? It has to be something, right? But Congress' intent clearly was not to remove shorter-than-12"-barrelled combo guns from the National Firearms Act. But what category does it fall within? I have never seen a Tech Branch or Legal Branch letter on the subject, but my belief is that it would still fall under the AOW category. Here's why: An AOW is defined as "...any weapon or device capable of being concealed on the person from which a shot can be discharged through the energy of an explosive, a pistol or revolver having a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12" or more, less than 18" in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any weapon which may be readily restored to fire. Such term shall not include a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition." 26 U.S.C. sec. 5845(e). Now, we have already determined that by definition an 8"-barrelled combo gun is not a rifle, and not a shotgun. It passes the first test of 5845)e) because it is "capable of being concealed on the person" and due to its smoothbore barrel, it does not fall under the exclusion of "a pistol or revolver having a rifled bore." Thus, it is a non-combo-gun AOW. Still treated exactly the same as other AOWs –– it just falls under a different section of the same definition. And because pix help brighten up a dull history lesson, here's one buck for ya: 
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