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Posted: 1/12/2009 7:35:48 AM EDT
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I've seen people attempt engraving their own lowers with varying degrees of success. Who has seen a good result or thinks they have a good method?
I've used Orion several times with good results. However, I have A BUNCH of things that need to be engraved and was thinking I could save a lot of money if I can do it myself. But I want it to look good. Anyone tried Dremel engraver (with diamond tip) and a custom stencil? |
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Are you wanting them all engraved the same?
If so, I would talk to several reputable engravers about the total cost. I know I have gotten really good deals when I wanted 10 things done identical. Most shops should gie you good pricing. Setting up the customart is one thing, but if it is a programmable laser/engraver, then all they need to do is change the work piece in the fixture nad run the next. Of course, if you deal with an engraver that does a fair amount of clean up work (refinishing / alum-black/ what not), then you will have that cost for each part also. |
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Hard anodized aluminum is very tricky to do without a serious laser like Orion has. I have seen some horrible, horrible hack jobs by trophy shops and private engravers. Seen enough I would not try it myself. Yeah, I've seen some horrible work. For something you presumably keep for life, you want it to look good. Just thought I'd see if anyone had any good methods. I'd just as well go ahead and send it to Orion if I have to have anyone else do it. |
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Funny. I just had a local lady with a laser engraver do mine today. Her machine was about the size of an office copye machine.
I was somewhat leery as she had never done an SBR before. 15 minutes later, it came out perfect. I mean really professional looking. Cost me $10. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. Everything after 'remember' is false. |
Doing it yourself free-hand would look kinda ghetto but if it floats your boat..... 
The military often scrawls rack numbers on weapons or serial # on barrels to match up with MGs, and it doesn't look too bad but theres lots of surface room for it and it's a .gov weapon not something you forked over $200-300 for plus a $200 stamp. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. Everything after 'remember' is false. the interesting part of your comment is that it also comes after 'remember'. 
i'm not going to debate this with you, but the "barrel, frame, or reciever" are all acceptable locations for makers information. fact. you going to call the ATF on remington for the millions of shotguns they've made with their information marked on the barrels instead of the recievers? |
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Doing it yourself free-hand would look kinda ghetto but if it floats your boat..... 
The military often scrawls rack numbers on weapons or serial # on barrels to match up with MGs, and it doesn't look too bad but theres lots of surface room for it and it's a .gov weapon not something you forked over $200-300 for plus a $200 stamp. it does, but it is inside the trigger guard on the reciever, and pretty difficult to notice if you aren't looking. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. Everything after 'remember' is false. Wrong.... bullyforyou is correct Quoted:
BATFE has already answered that question in the NFA Handbook they publish: Section 7.4 The identification of firearms. 7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122 So under federal law, the serial number must be on the frame or receiver, but the maker's marks may be on the frame, receiver or barrel. And this is common practice by commercial manufacturers –– many/most shotguns, for instance, have everything except the SN engraved on the barrel, not on the frame or receiver. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. Everything after 'remember' is false. Wrong.... bullyforyou is correct Quoted:
BATFE has already answered that question in the NFA Handbook they publish: Section 7.4 The identification of firearms. 7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122 So under federal law, the serial number must be on the frame or receiver, but the maker's marks may be on the frame, receiver or barrel. And this is common practice by commercial manufacturers –– many/most shotguns, for instance, have everything except the SN engraved on the barrel, not on the frame or receiver. Wrong - you can engrave the barrel, not the upper. And removing the barrel does not remove the SBR from the registry and hence makes it illegally marked. You can not engrave the barrel and remove it to produce a title1 weapon. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. Everything after 'remember' is false. Wrong.... bullyforyou is correct Quoted:
BATFE has already answered that question in the NFA Handbook they publish: Section 7.4 The identification of firearms. 7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122 So under federal law, the serial number must be on the frame or receiver, but the maker's marks may be on the frame, receiver or barrel. And this is common practice by commercial manufacturers –– many/most shotguns, for instance, have everything except the SN engraved on the barrel, not on the frame or receiver. Wrong - you can engrave the barrel, not the upper. And removing the barrel does not remove the SBR from the registry and hence makes it illegally marked. You can not engrave the barrel and remove it to produce a title1 weapon. Yes you can according to the NFA handbook: SBRguy: And the NFA Handbook says if you change the feature which makes it an NFA item, it is no longer an NFA item. It says nothing about one needed to first ask to de-register it. "Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon." I think you'd be fine with a 16" upper according to the NFA Handbook quoted above. Quoted: So basically the approval for an NFA weapon (except mg's and silencers) means it may be converted to an NFA weapon but it is only an NFA weapon if it is in NFA configuration. Good find. |
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Here's mine that I did myself. Turned out pretty good I think  :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/hotrodtba/AR15SBREngrave.jpg what did you use to do that? |
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SBRguy: And the NFA Handbook says if you change the feature which makes it an NFA item, it is no longer an NFA item. It says nothing about one needed to first ask to de-register it. "Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon." That's interesting...has there been any statements as to whether Section 2.5 refers to temporary removal of a weapon from NFA status or for permanent removal only? I'm looking to build an SBR, which are legal in Mississippi, but illegal in Alabama where my main place to shoot is. I'm just wondering:
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SBRguy: And the NFA Handbook says if you change the feature which makes it an NFA item, it is no longer an NFA item. It says nothing about one needed to first ask to de-register it. "Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon." That's interesting...has there been any statements as to whether Section 2.5 refers to temporary removal of a weapon from NFA status or for permanent removal only? I'm looking to build an SBR, which are legal in Mississippi, but illegal in Alabama where my main place to shoot is. I'm just wondering:
You'll have to read it and do what you are comfortable with. But let me ask you this, Is a firearm with a 16" barrel and 26" long a SBR? |
| you go ahead and play that game with the batfe and let me know how it works out for you. One of two things is going to happen. 1) they say ok you are right but you better not have that barrel lying around or you have an unregistered SBR as you made it back to title 1 and remanufacturing the SBR costs another $200 and the wait that comes with it again. 2) you have a SBR that is not properly marked with the manufacturer's info. |
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you go ahead and play that game with the batfe and let me know how it works out for you. One of two things is going to happen. 1) they say ok you are right but you better not have that barrel lying around or you have an unregistered SBR as you made it back to title 1 and remanufacturing the SBR costs another $200 and the wait that comes with it again. 2) you have a SBR that is not properly marked with the manufacturer's info.  get a grip. the ATF isn't going to break down your door and kill your family while you clean your shotgun because there are no manufacturers makings on the reciever any more then they'd do the same for your SBR.
true, someone who chose to engrave the upper or barrel should take care in not mixing and matching lowers and uppers and ending up with an unmarked SBR, but that is such a non-issue it's amazing. i own quite a few AR15's, and i've never sat down, taken them apart, and been so overwhealmed with weapons i couldn't get them back together how they originally were. lastly, and for the record, i did not say that you can just pop off the upper and, viola, title 1 firearm. if you, or others, interpreted it in that manner, i apologize for being unclear. my point was that if someone chose to mark a registered SBR AR15 in one of the other acceptable locations, and later decided to remove the weapon from the registry, they would have the advantage of having a clean and unmarked lower reciever. considering that the lower is the part that MUST go through an FFL, but the barrel or upper can be bought over-the-counter and replaced at will, this is a + for some folks. it is iportant that the OP knows this and has options, rather then having other CORRECT information muscled out by people who insist that their way is the right way, and anything else will get you killed or prosecuted. |
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Here's mine that I did myself. Turned out pretty good I think :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/hotrodtba/AR15SBREngrave.jpg what did you use to do that? +1. |
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You'll have to read it and do what you are comfortable with. But let me ask you this, Is a firearm with a 16" barrel and 26" long a SBR? It isn't an SBR to me or any other normal person, but I've never seen an ATF ruling that showed common sense. That's why I was wondering if there had been a statement made by ATF as to whether that section referred strictly to permanent removal of NFA status (requiring another $200 making fee later) or if it allowed temporary removal for transportation purposes. The "temporary removal" idea just seems to makes too much sense for that to be the case. Long story short, I was hoping for a common sense ruling on the subject that I've just somehow missed... ETA: Sorry to get off-topic OP...back to the regularly scheduled program... |
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Here's mine that I did myself. Turned out pretty good I think :
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v734/hotrodtba/AR15SBREngrave.jpg what did you use to do that? I used a CNC machining center. Total cost: Just some of my time after work one day. 
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This has been discussed before, tony k has posted exhaustive responses a few times. The answer is no, you cannot put a long barrel on a SBR and call it a title I weapon. Thats like taking the auto parts out of a registered receiver, and putting the semi auto parts in and calling it a Title I weapon. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. Everything after 'remember' is false. True. 
Edit: I could be wrong too. 
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This has been discussed before, tony k has posted exhaustive responses a few times. The answer is no, you cannot put a long barrel on a SBR and call it a title I weapon. Thats like taking the auto parts out of a registered receiver, and putting the semi auto parts in and calling it a Title I weapon. RIF "Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components. Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon." |
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there's a letter from ATF. once a MG always a MG, but if you put a long barrel on a sbr, it's a title 1 weapon. ATF details using a long barrel to cross state lines w/o a 5320.20 since it's not a SBR at that time.
Just because something is registered in the NFRTR, does not mean it is a title 2 weapon. repaying $200 each assy is silly. Realize that a form 1 is the permission to build a SBR with a particular serial number. It covers build, rebuild, rerererebuild, etc. |
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i just scribble mine on with a engraving pen. are you worried about just the appearance, or the value? remember, you can also engrave the upper or the barrel, so if you ever wanted to remove the lower from the NFA you could just slap another upper on it and have a plain old title 1 weapon with no marking on it at all. Everything after 'remember' is false. Wrong.... bullyforyou is correct Quoted:
BATFE has already answered that question in the NFA Handbook they publish: Section 7.4 The identification of firearms. 7.4.1 Serial numbers. Each manufacturer of a firearm must legibly identify it by engraving, stamping (impressing), or otherwise conspicuously placing on the firearm’s frame or receiver an individual serial number not duplicating any serial number placed by the manufacturer on any other firearm.120 The requirement that the marking be “conspicuously” placed on the firearm means that the marking must be wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, the serial number must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch and in a print size no smaller than 1/16 inch. 7.4.1.1 What is an acceptable serial number? Alpha characters (letters), for example a name, are not acceptable as a serial number. A proper serial number may contain such characters or letters, but it must have at least one numeric character (number). ATF takes the view that marking “legibly” means using exclusively Roman letters (A, B, C, and so forth) and Arabic numerals (1, 2, 3, and so forth).121 Deviations from this requirement have been found to seriously impair ATF’s ability to trace firearms involved in crime. 7.4.2 Additional information. Certain additional information must also be conspicuously placed on the frame, receiver, or barrel of the firearm by engraving, casting, stamping (impressing), that is, they must be placed in such a manner that they are wholly unobstructed from plain view. For firearms manufactured on or after January 30, 2002, this information must be to a minimum depth of .003 inch. The additional information includes: (1) The model, if such designation has been made; (2) The caliber or gauge; (3) The manufacturer’s name (or recognized abbreviation); and (4) The city and State (or recognized abbreviation) where the manufacturer maintains its place of business.122 So under federal law, the serial number must be on the frame or receiver, but the maker's marks may be on the frame, receiver or barrel. And this is common practice by commercial manufacturers –– many/most shotguns, for instance, have everything except the SN engraved on the barrel, not on the frame or receiver. Wrong - you can engrave the barrel, not the upper. And removing the barrel does not remove the SBR from the registry and hence makes it illegally marked. You can not engrave the barrel and remove it to produce a title1 weapon. What is all this about? The serial number of the lower is registered. The Information on line h ( I think) is on the frame. 1. I put a 10 inch upper on that lower, I have a SBR. 2. I put a 16 inch upper on that lower, I have a AR-15. What is all this barrel engraving stuff. You can engrave anything you want on your upper or 10 inch barrel. Just don't put it on your friends AR-15 lower.
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where's pics of self engraving?  Yeah - really. Here's a DIY job, and one done with a laser. I used a couple of Dremil diamond tips and darkened it in with a sharpie. You have to be careful, as the anodizing is very hard, but once you get through, the aluminum is relatively soft. This makes it really easy to gouge a deep / wide spot once you get past the surface.
Try to guess which one got registered as the SBR and which one is still just a pistol lower for my other short upper to live on. 
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Funny. I just had a local lady with a laser engraver do mine today. Her machine was about the size of an office copye machine. I was somewhat leery as she had never done an SBR before. 15 minutes later, it came out perfect. I mean really professional looking. Cost me $10. Where in NM does this? IM sent! Regards, Rob |
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Funny. I just had a local lady with a laser engraver do mine today. Her machine was about the size of an office copye machine. I was somewhat leery as she had never done an SBR before. 15 minutes later, it came out perfect. I mean really professional looking. Cost me $10. Lasers work great, but most can't reach the required .003 depth. |
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