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Posted: 10/4/2008 4:34:49 PM EDT
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Purchased a M11/9, paid the stamp, ATF approved, returned documents to seller to complete transfer. Now seller is of the opinion that the original documents are HIS so he made a copy and forwarded to the C3 dealer who is acting as the middle man. Seller refuses to listen to logic and is absolute that he is the sole owner of this document since he does not see any place that specifically demands he transfer original legal documents. Claims since AFT only needs copy, buyer only needs copy. Dealer & I are both dumbfounded and it looks like local ATF will be making a courtesy call to this guy next week. Has anybody had this type of experience? Am I out of line to demand MY stamp that I paid for? |
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When the guy placed this gun for sale, I explained we could meet FTF since we did not require a C3 dealer - both TX residents. He refused to talk with me and instructed all correspondence go thru the dealer. I thought this behaviour very odd but the dealer told me he was helping this guy out. Apparently the seller was afraid to do FTF even though he currently/once had a FFL. I'm getting the feeling this guy is mental since he REFUSES to listen to reason, saying he never had to turn over the originals in past dealings... Dealer is beyond frustration and will refuse to deal with this guy again. Apparently this individual has more Title II firearms he wants to divest. I would reason that after multiple conversations with a person that does this for a living and the threat of having the govt step in, I would eagerly turn over documents. Dealer & I are both curious why this guy insists on holding onto documents and question his intent. Odd to say the least but I'm happy the paperwork only took 60 days. |
It's unlikely that it's the reason he kept it, but if sold to stamp collectors (of the non-firearm variety) the stamp itself can fetch as much as $50. It's much more likely that he is simply a moron that would rather cause a disaster than to admit he is a moron. |
| Why would the dealer get them any way? Did you do two transfers for this gun? From him to the dealer, and then the dealer to you? Because you know if the guy dropped the gun off at the dealer for you to pick up is illegal, you'll have to meet him face to face at some point. |
Dealer has all legal reasons to be in possession. This gun has only been transferred to me on one stamp so I am now the official owner. |
I think your all a little confused. If you did a Form 4 direct from the SELLER to YOU, then the DEALER is in ILLEGAL possesion of a NFA item. |
Dealer is also gunsmith and has all legal reasons to be in possession because he is doing work on the gun. No federal laws are being broken by dealer, just seller. Dealer has a close relationship with the local ATF office so he has all his ducks in a row and will be getting in touch with them Monday. I'll update what I find out. |
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Those are YOUR federal tax documents. The police can't even demand to see those unless they have a warrant. That jackass is way out of line. I would raise holy hell with the ATF and IRS about that scumbag because the original form with stamp is your ONLY proof that your weapon is registered to you if the ATF loses their copy. Xerox copies and computer print outs can be manipulated to show just about ANYTHING and won't hold up as a defense against prosecution if ATF loses their duplicate. Copies are good for showing to gun range owners or the random ATF agent that asks if your gun is registered, but it won't help in your defense if ATF says they have no record of such a transaction -> only the original will keep you out of jail. |
You nailed in right on the head! |
No Federal laws are being broken by anyone at this time. Seller has legal right to send gun to gunsmith. Legally gunsmith must return gun to seller. Seller has no legal obligation to give tax stamp to gunsmith. Sounds like you are wanting gunsmith to give gun to you with tax stamp he does not have. That is illegal and gunsmith has to LIE on his books to make that happen. Be careful how you proceed. You are basically documenting in this thread your attempt to illegally transfer a machine gun through a gunsmith. If I was ATF, would be getting wood right now, as I see multiple felony convictions and one FFL revocation.. Not too hard to figure out who you are if an ATF agent. |
Waiting for udpate from Tboy. Also could you answer the following? Can we assume that seller, dealer(gunsmith), and buyer all live in same state (texas)? Can you clarify the type of transfer, was it a Form 4 transfer from seller to dealer(gunsmith)? Or was it a Form 4 transfer from seller to buyer? Not sure which one you actually say was done? Where is the actual location of the gun? ie with seller or dealer(gunsmith)? |
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Clusterfuck all around. Listen to RenegadeX on this one. Your seller is an asshat if he doesn't give you the original approved form. You might need it in order to prove lawful possession at some point. ETA: Ask the seller if he was denied the original approved form when he bought the gun and any other NFA items. |
You're saying that your dealer keeps the original/new Form 4 on NFA items that you buy from him? Should be the other way around. You get the original with the actual stamp on it. I can see him keeping a copy for his records, but keeping the original is not the way it should be. The NFA item and the original/new Form 4 are your property. I would definitely call him on it. |
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The only original tax stamps you get to keep are those with YOUR information in the "Transferee" block. If you sell your NFA firearm to someone, the new F4 with the BUYER's name in the "Transferee" block, goes with the NFA firearm when you hand it over. You might keep a photocopy of the new F4 to document the transfer, and your old F4 has a cancelled stamp which might be of interest to a philatelist (stamp collector). The dealer holding the item ("for work") needs to return it to the moron seller, to get it off his bound book, and the moron needs to send it to you ASAP. |
Yeah, I probably should. I'm really not fond of seeing the photocopies in my NFA folder. I've seen his records; he keeps the original Form 4s for all the cans he sells. |
Ok, I guess this is something I can show him:
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PICTURES!!! |
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