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Posted: 3/28/2008 7:25:42 PM EDT
| is there any way to transfer a found (not at a dealer or in possession of another person) sten receiver as a class 3 weapon? Also, is there any way to find out whether the receiver was registered as a class 3 weapon prior to the ban? |
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There are lots of these old guns around but the problem is once they are found by someone that is not smart enough to keep their mouth shut then there is documentation that it exists. The gun is most likely an illegal MG that may have been brought back from WWII. After WWII there were MANY guns brought into the country and the government tried to get everyone to register these (hence the transferable ones we have today). Now, there is a small chance that this could be registered but I am not sure the BATFE can or will look up the owner of the registered machinegun if it were registered as this is confidential tax information. In addition, you would need to find the owner or a decendent of the owner to do a transfer to you. Now, if you call the BATFE with the serial number and it is not on their books and by your own admission you do not have the paperwork and it certainly is not in your name, then you are commiting a felony by having it. So, what would I do... well, that is almost irelevant as I pay my taxes and buy trasnferable MGs that I can hold, shoot, and enjoy. However, I will advise that I am happy to hear that the arms locker of democracy still has surprises stashed away even if this example managed to get out of the contol of people that knew what it was and that they should have been smart enough to not post about it on the internet  JMHO... I don't want any part of illegal MGs myself including discussions about them... but the fact that they are out there does not bother me in the least. I believe in the Don't ask Don't Tell on these! |
A "found" receiver is contraband, period. A registered receiver is only legal if it is still in the possession of the person to whom it has been registered. Once it leaves that person's possession, it is a felony waiting for the handcuffs. Thus whether it was registered prior to the ban is irrelevant today, unless it is in possession of the person to whom it was registered, or it is possessed by someone to whom the registrant legally transferred it via an approved Form 4.  You can call BATFE and give them the serial number. But if you are not the person to whom it is registered, be prepared to face felony NFA possession charges. There is no way to make it a legal "semi-auto". BATFE's stance is, "Once a machine gun, always a machine gun." |
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Tony, say my grandpa dies and I find an M16 with a Form 4 in his name in his closet the day after he dies (or hell, 5 years after). There should be a way to legally get that taken care of / transfered right? I know my grandpa had some guns around the house and he died a couple of years ago. My grandma still lives in their house and doesnt touch the guns. I'm 99.99999% sure he didnt have any Title II weapons, but if he did then they would just be sitting there waiting to be found. I would hope there would be legal ways to resolve the situation if this where to occur. |
May I answer for Tony? The expectation from the BATFE is that these guns be transferred to new owners in a timely fashion. I have not seen a specific time requirement however. I actually have two weapons that came from deceased previous owners. My M11/9 was owned by a gentleman and his widow signed the paperwork selling it to me. The other was a silencer that I bought from a guy that passed away and in that case his sister signed to paperwork as the seller on his behalf. Now transfering it inside of the family I am pretty sure is tax free and I am pretty sure that is done with a Form 5 but I am not lucky enough to have experienced that myself. www.titleii.com/pdf/010205-Form5.pdf |
Your answers are always more than welcome  I suspected it'd be a Form 5, and the word "timely" jogged my memory of another similar situation that I saw either on here or subguns. Now.... lets say its that same situation as I described above, m16 in the closet, but no Form 4 to be found, anywhere  Could be / might be properly registered but no one knows.Obviously this is hypothetical because I doubt my grandpa owned Title II, but this scenario strikes me as something that perhaps happend to the OP 
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That I don't know... It pays to have extra copies of NFA paperwork all over the place in case something should happen. I have originals in the safety deposit box and photocopies in the gun safes, gun cases, desk files, etc, etc. The paper is what makes the guns valuable... |
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What about deactivated or dewatted Stens, for example? Last gun show I was at, a guy had a Sten for sale and would have taken 250 bucks for it. The barrel was plugged and he said it was a legal dewat, but the rest was intact. It was definitely not something I had enough info on to make an informed decision, so of course I let it pass. But if I KNEW for sure that it was legal and sellable, I'd buy it in an instant. It'd be a very cool addition to the collection. CJ |
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Well, the first thing is to contact the attorney who handled the estate -- or if no attorney was involved, hire your own. Yes, BATFE requests that estate transfers be submitted in a "timely" fashion, but I'm aware of transfers that have been submittd and approved more than 10 years after the death of the registered owner. There are many variables, including whether the estate went through probate, who had physical possession of the NFA item during the "gap," how the item was originally registered, etc. There is no way to make a broad statement of whether BATFE considers that the gun can be legally owned/transferred to a new owner without the specifics. If you discover an NFA item in the estate of a deceased relative, you should immediately get lawyers involved. This is an asset worth thousands of dollars. Depending on all the variables, BATFE may help in transferring it to an heir ... or may take the position that it is contraband subject to seizure and destruction. An attorney will best know how to handle the situation. I wish there was an easier answer... 
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If it was a registered dewat, you would need to purchase it via a Form 5 transfer, and it would be worth about $4k. If it is not registered, and it has an intact receiver with just the barrel plugged, it's the same as having a live, unregistered MG -- worth 10 years in federal prison and a $250,000 fine. There is no such thing as a "legal dewat" with an intact receiver.
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QB, I was vacationing a number of years ago and stopped in a "hole in the wall" flea market/antique place. I asked the owner about some mil surplus looking vehicles sitting outside. He explained that the army(?) sent them down as part of a demo about 20 years ago(at the time) and they never came back to get them. He said he spoke with someone to come and get the stuff numerous times with no success. I do not recall all the particulars but there were at least 2 what looked to be 50bmg m2's(?). As best as I could tell they weren't de-milled and looked to be functional albeit with years of weathering. Could this be how our military "loses" stuff. I would like to think I was part owner since I pay taxes, however the idea of shacking up with a roommate named "BUBBA" for ten years kept me on the straight and narrow. To the OP and others - If all of this research is done through an attorney, wouldn't they be covered by atty/client privilege if there was a contraband situation? |
I thought about that, but the BATFE typically doesnt let silly things like laws stand in their way.  To be honest though, I'm not 100% sure if they can legally get a court order or warrant or some other nonsense forcing your lawyer to give you up.
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They are a Law Enforcement Community. I guess the only problem is that they are enforcing laws that Do NOT exist. |
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