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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SHARE YOU BAD NFA EXPERIENCE (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 2/14/2008 10:59:58 PM EDT
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...I'll go first 11 weeks (30 Nov 07) from today I purchased a M11 and Gemtech Viper from a very well known and reputable company (name that I will not mention). Yesterday I found out that the paperwork had not been submitted to ATF for the dealer transfer and the Gemtech was not ordered. The guy in the class 3 department is on vacation and the VP of the company has been assisting me. I am not mad at the company or holding them at fault for one person's f-up. I wanted to get a refund but it was a very good deal. I'm giving them a second chance to make it right. However, I'll never do business with them again. ETA: 19 Mar 08 Dealer called today and said items would ship this week. 
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Dude, (shakes head) you aren't even close to a bad experience... My first NFA experience has to be one of the worst on record! Here goes... So I go into my local gunshop and say I want to buy a suppressor. The owner says "go see *** *** at *** guns". Since the owner is a hugely reputable guy, I go and see who he directed me to in Feb. of 2004. I order-up an Outback, pay the man $500 (that includes $$ for the stamp) and he says he'll call me when it comes in. A fucking year goes by with no phonecall. I go back to the guy's shop, and he says it should be "any day now". I keep harrassing this dealer for another FOURTEEN FUCKING MONTHS and still no can, now its April '06. I ask for my $$ back, he says no-can-do. A week later my attorney and I show up at this guy's shop with a summons to appear in small claims court. He is ordered to pay me back, so he writes a check (which bounces). He is held in contempt of the court and his bank account is frozen. I finally get my money in July of '06. As far as I am concerned, this guy can fucking eat lead, but I eventually forget about him. Fast forward now to summer '07. I get a visit from a BATFE agent. They are investigating said dealer and he has approved paperwork for my suppressor that was approved in June of '04 but he can't produce the suppressor!!!!! The friendly agent asks to inspect my Outback (I bought one elsewhere) to check the serial #. No problem here. I don't know how that ever worked out for the dealer, but I hope he frys.... That soured me to the whole NFA experience. That being said, I am the proud owner of 5 suppressors, 3 SBR's and a MG now 
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No real bad experienced, just long waits. First SBR went smoothly First Can got delayed because dealer had put the wrong S/N on the paperwork. I had to wait an extra month, but no problem. Second SBR got delayed since I didn't know the wanted schedules A. Had to wait an extra month and a half over that. Second suppressor I am waiting on right now. ATF took a month and a half to cash the check. |
That's how I feel. Damn, I don't know how I would react if I was in your position. That would really spark a fuse. I don't know if I want to hear anymore stories. I guess it will help us all and make us think twice about who we are dealing with. I know I will. |
 I'm buying a MG in state on a form 4, I know the gun exists and is on a form 4 and in the right city as per BATFE so that puts my mind at ease, BUT.20 days ago my seller received payment 18 days ago my bank says the check was cashed 15 days ago my seller said he would "send the Form 4 the next day" 7 days ago I emailed him yesterday I emailed him I've called for the last 3 days and his voicemail is full or cant otherwise receive messages. Last contact I had was the email from 15 days ago  I still remain positive, but it would be very nice to hear from him  I really hope the deal goes through ok. I checked references on him (came back positive) and checked with the BATFE, so my main concern really is that maybe something happend to him! Who knows! Headed home to check the mailbox now LOL went home and there it was in the mailbox, HUZZAH |
It's a hassle, but the hardship and waiting makes the rewards sweeter. If it was easy, everybody would do it. 49 days and counting... |
True. I don't mine waiting on ATF, because I already know it can be a long wait. However, I don't like waitng because a dealer is not doing their job. |
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DEWAT MG that was improperly papered by BATFE's predacessor's predacessor's predacessor under the authority of Naval Intelligence. Just to start with, a large rifle caliber was papered as being .25 auto. Then there was a WW2 bringback Sten SMG that was papered as a SBR during the '68 amnesty. No one ever bothered to have the issue fixed- it was just quietly transferred around over the last 40 years. Vietnam bring-back RPD registered as an AK-47. Amnesty serial number issue- a non-serial numbered MG was stamped with IRS-xx8xx. The stamping was mis-struck and the 8 looked like a 3. It was papered as a 3. Someone finally noticed that the s/n on the paperwork didn't match the gun. Then there are just stupid ones like MP-40s being registered as "Burp Gun" and the like. Mike |
| I had a Reising M50 stolen from me about 20 years ago. The responding police officer thought the gun had to be illegal when I told him it was taken but I had my paperwork and happened to have run into him at the range previously. The ATF was good about it and advised they would notify me if the gun turned up. No luck... |
Some folks would end up using it on the guy.  Please, tell us the rest of the story.
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Alright, here is the entire story, with as much detail as I can remember. I was 17 years old, in 11th grade in High School. I had been begging my dad to get a title 2 weapon, realizing that prices were only going to go up. My dad was reluctant to get into it, being one of those guys who believed the "hassle" and "ATF inspections" stories. Finally I did get him to purchase an M11/9, which at the time, were going for around $800. I really wanted him to get an AC556, which were only $2200, but he said he couldn't afford it. I didn't care, I just wanted him to get into class 3, because I honestly knew that if my dad didn't get into C3 while it was cheap, I may never have the chance as an adult. The weapon was purchased from a gentleman in NY for $795, before taxes, and sent to the dealer. The dealer, who was also my HS art teacher, let me know it was in, and even let me see the gun. He sent my father the form 4, which he filled out and returned to the dealer, along with a $200 check. Time passes and the dealer says his wife lost the check and the F4, so my dad had to redo everything. After my dad sent the dealer the forms and check, the dealer told me he would be at the local range for their "range day" where he would be displaying some title II firearms for the folks in attendance. He also informed my father that he could bring the M11/9 if he wished in order for him to inspect the firearm and to shoot it. Remember, at this time the forms had still not been sent off. My dad told him that he would like to shoot the gun, so the dealer did bring it to the range. My father and I both shot the gun, and while I was shooting it a kid from my school saw me. I never really thought much about shooting the gun, since it was totally legal, but when I returned to school on monday, my teacher/dealer wanted to have a word with me. He told me that a kid saw me shooting the gun and was spreading rumours around school that I was buying a MG off of said teacher. I told the dealer that it was BS, and that he knew it. He agreed, but got cold feet and wanted to delay the transfer to my father until I was out of HS. Now when I say this guy got cold feet, there are some things you must know about him. He is very paranoid. Paranoid as in he opens his car door using a McDonalds napkin because he is afraid of germs. He is a good guy, and me and him would sit around all class and BS about guns, but he is very very paranoid about everything. I tell my dad about the dealer not wanting to transfer, so my dad calls him up. They finally work out an arrangement to get the transfer done. My dad re sends all the forms, check, cards and photo in hopes for another go at this. The dealer continues to drag his feet. After the dealer drug his feet forever again, he wanted another copy of the form 4. However, now the sherriff who would sign forms was out of office, replaced by a guy who was so so on getting a signature. The dealer explicitly told us not to ask for a sign off from the guy, as it might "muddy the political waters". Like I said, he is paranoid about everything. Finally I talk to the dealer, as I am nearing the age of 21. I told him that I was just going to wait for my 21st birthday, and then have it transferred to me. After the kid saw me shooting the gun and spread all the shit around school about me buying a MG from the dealer, he thought my dad was buying the gun for me. He knew good and well that my dad was not buying it for me. My dad found storage requirements of NFA weapons and explained the storage requirements(which I already knew) to me, and that I was not allowed access to it. 2006, I am getting ready to turn 21, now the dealer has second thoughts about transferring it to me because I am so young. I searched around a little bit, trying to find other dealers to do the transfer and what not, but honestly kind of lost interest in the whole deal. After finding this site, I begin to regain interest somewhat and start up communication with the dealer again. In late 2006 I filed my first form 1, which was my first experience with the NFA process. After seeing how it was, I became very interested in getting my machine gun. I keep an open line of communication with the dealer, and by this time, I have told him that I am going to have J&T do my transfer. In late 2007 a local gentleman got his 03 FFL/SOT so I decided to use him instead of J&T. I have talked with him, and he has already got the ball rolling. He contacted my original dealer, sent him his info, along with a form 3. Now I am waiting on the form 3 to come back and my new dealer to take possession of the weapon, so he can then transfer it to me on a form 4. My new dealer has been nothing but a pleasure to deal with, unlike the other dealer I had, who was nothing but a pain in the ass. |
What a fucking goat rope Sounds like the guy at the sporting goods store who refused to touch the boxes of 22 ammo I was buying in case I did something with it "illegal" so as his prints wouldnt turn up in anything 
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And how many are waiting on the Shrike? |
That's what I hate about cans and MGs. I like SBRs and SBSs because you can do all the work yourself. I suppose you could on a suppressor too, but I don't have the time or knowledge to get the job done right. |
This is probably a dumb question, but what keeps you from walking into your dealer with a mostly completed Form 4 and having him fill out the rest in front of you, then going out and mailing it yourself? The dealer would have to have the suppressor in stock to get the serial # and he'd have to be WILLING to do this, but I would think that would be substantially easier than having to wait on someone else to drop something in the mail. |
Not a dumb question. It depends on if you are buying local or out of state. In my case I was buying out of state and need a dealer to dealer transfer. Once that transfer is complete the NFA item(s) are shipped to my local dealer. Then the local dealer fills out the forms with his info and the NFA item info. The forms are then given to me to finish filling out and send to ATF. I purchased 2 cans recently local. The dealer had several cans for me to pick from. All the forms was ready with the exception of my information. Once I picked what I wanted he typed in my info and printed forms for me to send off. Now that is the way business should be done. I feel that if you are in the business to sell NFA items you should already have forms ready and just put the buyers info on there or let them do it. Also, addressed envelops to ATF for out of state transfers would help. However this is just me and my thinking. |
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If you want to hear bad, you should check out the story of my good personal friend, FFL, and retired LEO Ken Crane... www.titleii.com/archives/000010.html |
Sounds familiar. |
I almost put money down on one at the SAR show about 4 years ago: Jeff H was there promoting them pretty heavy. I guess I should have done it, because at the same show I gave a german WWII rangefinder to a optics guy in Arizona for him to work on. I finally got all the parts back from him about 2 weeks ago: 4 years later. As slow as he was, he still beat the Shrike. |
Mike, with all due respect ... Most of the bringbacks and amnesty-registered guns were not registered by gun-knowledgeable people like you, me and 90% of the ar15.com membership ... instead, the paperwork was filled out by normal, everyday folks who prolly had not owned a firearm until Uncle Sam handed them one and put them on a boat to Europe or the Pacific. But by God they were Americans and fought like it, and when they took that SMG from the German or Japanese soldier, he was a corpse who could not tell them whether it was an MP38 or MP 40, or what caliber ammo it fired. It was a true War Trophy, taken from the cold hands of someone who was trying desperately to kill them. My Dad fought in WWII, and my wife's Dad, and neither they nor most of their fellow soliders I met came back with a love or knowledge of guns. In fact, most of 'em didn't shoot at all unless they were active hunters. But they kept that "burp gun" because of the victory, and the loss, that it represented. And that's exactly what they called it when they sent in their paperwork. Yeah, the inaccuracies in the Registry drive me crazy. But I do not begrudge the owners who registered bringbacks that way, because they couldn't be expected to know the difference -- and they had earned the right to make paperwork mistakes. We prolly should instead be mad at the IRS for accepting such inaccurate Registry entries -- but then again, they were accepting veterans at their word and on their honor. Would that they did so today. OK, I'm leaving the podium now.... 
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Now you heard about my major issue. However, I blame one individual for my issue and not the company. |
Thank you, guys.  I should point out that I know Mike (prebans) and have the highest respect for him. Right now, he's much more actively "in the business" than I am, and he's a great guy that I trust 110%. IMHO, you should, too. I feel bad for jumping on his post. Sorry, guy! Mike's just frustrated at the bureaucratic PITA of having to try to fix all these paperwork errors ... but he is (ahem!) a few years younger than I am, and he missed the opportunity of growing up surrounded by, learning from, and sometimes even in awe of, a lot of the same vets who did such a crappy job filling out that paperwork. When a simple transfer turns into a year or more of constant correspondence with BATFE, it's normal to blame the guy who started it all by screwing up a one-page form. When you've had the honor of getting to know those guys and how they earned their medals preserving our freedom, it's impossible to not cut them endless slack.
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| Mine wasn't terrible, but my local C3 had their mail stolen and it just so happened to be the day my paperwork for my 5.56 can was in it. Well, the dumb thing is that the federal police never gave him his mail back so a month or so goes by and I have to contact the BATFE to get a letter stating that I have valid paperwork to own my can. Well, it took about 4 months to get my paper work, but I finally got my can. I still haven't received the real stamp and I believe that the C3 never got their mail either. (I believe they kept it for evidence or something) |
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Update on my experience... Its been 2 weeks since approval and I havent been able to get ahold of the seller. He refuses to answer his cell, voicemail is full, he wont return emails, no one can get ahold of him and the address I have isnt his home address. I've found out from some people contacting me that this guy is normally like this. Not only that, another person dealing with this guy is getting screwed, horribly. Its probably THE single worst NFA experience I've ever heard. Its ongoing and I'm pretty sure he'd prefer to keep it private for now. Talk about a shitty first transfer. |
One thing to be aware of, ATF does not always drop your approved form in the mail the same day they approve it. Both of my forms were postmarked more than one week after approval date. One was 8 days and the other was 14 days. |
Right, which is why I'm not quite yet at the "worst case scenario". The thing that gets me is that its SOP for this guy to not contact anyone, no contact at all whatsoever. I'd appreciate a "stop calling me" email at this point! |
There's a good bit of misunderstanding in regard to my post. I'm not blaming Veterans, as it's truly not their fault. Further, it's actually VERY helpful that it isn't the registrant's (the Veteran's) fault! This thread is about NFA nightmares. I submitted some I've heard about first-hand and/or ones I have personally dealth with. After re-reading my post, I'm unable to find any place where I denegrated Veterans who served at any point, much less ones that brought back anything. Furthermore, it was actually pretty rare for Veterans to register their own stuff on their own. Registration was generally done through the military upon bringing something back ("Sign these forms, soldier.") or during the '68 Amnesty ("Okay, sign here." --- or --- "No, put x in that area and y in that area and then sign the bottom. Good! NEXT!"). Thus, aside from it merely being improper to take servicemen to task for these errors, that blame would be entirely misplaced. I assign blame and am annoyed with the bureaucracy surrounding the amending of incorrect registrations. Okay, so the soldier who captured the gun isn't up on official nomenclature OR the clerk who filled out the paperwork wasn't up on nomenclature. Fine and dandy! The annoyance is when one attempts to make things right and must fear fire and brimstone to for doing so. Or the Office of Naval Intelligence doesn't know the difference between 7.7x58 (think .308 or .30-06 sized) and .25 automatic. Yeah, it's especially amusing considering the name of the source! But why must folks be absolutely frightened of attempting to properly notify ATF of its predacessor's predacessor's predacessor's error? Then there's that Sten MG that was papered as SBR in error. I won't even begin to describe what had to happen with that one..... Mistakes, confusion, and clerical errors happen. This occurs in every line of work. However, an innocent person attempting to rectify an innocent mistake should not need to lose sleep over fear of arrest, confiscation, or worse. I only know of two places where such fear exists- ATF and the IRS. (Considering ATF was a wing of the IRS, perhaps it's really just one place!) Whether or not anybody believes this, blame is only useful if it helps point the finger at ATF or one of its predacessors. Being able to point the blame at a federal agency generally makes fixing errors more easy- it's hard for them to raise much hell when you're able to prove that the foul-up was on THEIR end. Frankly, I never want to blame the registrant - soldier or otherwise. Being able to blame the feds makes my job a hell of a lot easier! Thankfully, I've yet to have to do so. Blame for these errors is - so far - nearly always on the shoulders of the government. Now, if the Feds would just streamline and simplify the process to fix THEIR errors..... So, please re-read my post. There's nothing in there about Veterans from any war- never was, never will be. I haven't edited anything in it since February 15, and that was only because I'm a bad speller. Check other posts for exact quotes of what I wrote if you think I pulled something to save face- I think my original post has been quoted twice. The exact reason I'm so verbose is so that others know exactly where I stand and exactly what I'm trying to convey- no more and no less. Misread, Mike |
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I saw the paper work once with a copy of an ATF letter for: A delay for a MG transfer, because it turms out there are 2 with the same serial number. Both registered "properly". Fortunately ATF was reasonable in the letter and requested that the serial number had an extra digit added- to make them different. |
Yup, something/anything from the seller keeping in touch would keep you happy. Its those that "disapear" or ignore you that are the frustrating ones. |
My dealer filled the form 4 out in front of me put it in an envelope and said "Here is your paperwork, mail it to them." |
You paid him for the stamp ???? ..... .....I always thought that was between me and the ATF via a USPS money order. The most my dealer did was mail me the first forms (suppressor), after I paid for it, with a detailed instruction sheet. He typed my info in and told me what to do and where to sign, the money order price and all that jazz. Now I just get 2 forms with my typed information, 2 fingerprint cards (blank) and whatever that other form is. From there is all about getting the LEO signoffs, paying for my own money order of 200$ and paying for a LEO fingerprint fee. He said be wary of anyone offering to take your 200$ tax fee or anyone offering to do all the paperwork for you. Oh yeah.... once the sheriff put the wrong year on the date besides his name. The NFA inspector corrected it for him . Saved me alot of time.I am fixing to buy my fifth stamp! |
Some scary stories here.  Guess I should be glad my dealer seems pretty squared away. He mailed me the completed packet, in duplicate, with a "SIGN HERE, STUPID" sticker on it and explicit instructions on what do include before sending back to him. He verifies the information on the form is correct and sent it in. Check cashed a week later. And now the wait is a month or so, still waiting, but I'm ok with it.
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It's been alot longer than 6 years hasn't it? I thought you and your dad have been waiting at least 12 years. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SHARE YOU BAD NFA EXPERIENCE (Page 1 of 2)
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