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Posted: 10/24/2007 7:55:48 PM EDT
| If I receive my cut down uppers back before I get my Form-1's back, what do I have to do to prevent constructive intent? Would keeping the uppers at, say, my office while keeping my pending receivers at home qualify as adequate separation? How's that work? |
It's not the same as keeping a pair of dogs separated so they don't breed...  One or the other of the parts (lower or upper) must be out of your control. As long as they are both in places that you have unrestricted access to (like home and office), it's the same as if they were next to each other on a shelf. Either ask the gunsmith to hold onto the cut uppers until you get your approved Form 1, or else have them shipped to a friend or relative's home (someone who does not own an AR15 -- you don't want to get them in trouble). |
| When I called ATF on this one of the examiners said by me just buying the upper was constructive intent that I should have waited untill I had recieved my Approved Form 1 back prior to me buying any part that could have violated the spirt of the law. I read case law account where a man had bought a SBR/pistol length upper with a unregistered lower he was doing the paper work for it with ATF on a form 1. Some body said he had illegal weapons in his house they Police came found none but did a check on his credit cards found he had bought a upper with-in NFA law. He had it at his Mothers house the court said that since he had access to the item he was found guilty. That is why I would ALWAYS buy a stripped lower and have my dealer register it as a pistol. That why you can have both upper and lower on hand with NO problem. Just remember NO BUTTSTOCK. If you already have a lower (rifle) do not take positive controle over the upper have it sent to a friend that you do not have unlimited access too. Another examiner told me that. It seems that the ATF examiners either don't know the law or they are just lost in the sause I asked the same question two examiners two different answers. |
OH wow, you just told the world you are in the process of a felony! Wasn't there a story on arfcom a while back about a guy that did this? The ATF nailed him the next day and told him they keep a close eye on arfcom folks. Seems like he's in the pen for years. Not even club fed, they put him in the regular prison with Bubba. His wife sent him a letter telling him the dogs were dead also. IN the spirit of animal rights, please send your dogs to you neighbors! Maybe if your fast, you can take Tony's advice and save yourself. |
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My M79 receiver is staying at my dealers until my paperwork gets back and that's that. I wouldnt keep the stuff at any property I owned/or had readily availible access to, ie: work and home. Because the way I see it, you still have perfect access to both needed parts. Soi any SBR, DD, etc I plan on building parts will not bought or parts will be stored at the dealers until appropriate time. |
| It is my understanding that if you had an AR lower that could be lawfully assembled into a pistol configuration (i.e. virgin, or currently configured as a pistol), then you could have short uppers and standard AR rifles and not be at risk of constructive possession. |
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Correct. If all the lowers you have can be assembled into a lawful configuration YOU HAVE A DEFENSE. You can still be arrested and charged. The trick is not to have a rifle lower without a corresponding rifle upper Or a SBR/Pistol upper without a lower that it can be legally attached to. 1 SBR Lower + 3 Rifle Lowers + 3 Rifle Uppers + 2 Pistol Uppers = OK 1 SBR Lower + 3 Rifle Lowers + 2 Rifle Uppers + 2 Pistol Uppers = SCREWED 3 Rifle Lowers + 3 Rifle Uppers + 1 Pistol Uppers = You need money for your legal defense fund.  |
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I believe the correct term is constructive possession. The intent is that one purchased a short barrel or upper prior to receiving an approved stamp regardless of where the parts are stored. If the ATF is looking at someone that closely then they can most likely prove the intent since one constructively possessed the items, i.e., sent them to grandma's while waiting for approval, without a stamp. Just wait until your stamp comes back approved before you purchase SBR parts & you don't have to worry about all the legal mumbo-jumbo. |
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Another what-if: I recently sold my rifle upper, complete with BCG and all. I now have only a rifle lower at my house which is waiting for Form 1 approval. If I went ahead and bought an SBR upper, but did NOT purchase or take possession of a bolt carrier group until the paperwork was approved, meaning that I would NOT have a BCG in my house and would not have in my possession sufficient parts to assemble a working rifle, would that still be construed as constructive intent? |
That is skating REAL CLOSE to the "go to jail" area. You would have to argue that without the BCG your collection of parts was not a "firearm"
I think the text in red would sink you. Since ONLY the receiver is considered a "firearm" attaching a sub-16" barrel and stock would BY DEFINITION make it a "short barreled rifle" even absent any fire control components OR BCG. The key is that without the "barrel" it cannot be a "short BARRELED rifle" |
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I'm no lawyer, and I won't pretend to be. In US vs. Thompson/Center, .gov argued that since an illegal weapon could be constructed from a TC Contender pistol and the carbine conversion kit, an NFA tax should be paid. They lost. Anybody with questions about this should read this case, and some of the interpretations (by actual SME's). As long as the parts you have can be assembled in a lawful configuration, you are OK. It is legal to have multiple pistol uppers for a pistol, just as it is legal to have multiple rifle uppers for a rifle. Be conservative if you wish, but there is no need to be paranoid. Advice here is worth exactly what you pay for it... do some homework. |
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I was at a gunshop once and I a guy had a "pistol" configuration on some kind of rifle... I don't remember exactly what it was, I think it was some kind of H&K, I don't think it was an AR... anyway, he was telling some other guy that he was waiting for the SBR paperwork to come back so he could put a stock on it... he grabbed the stock out of his bag and held it up to the gun and "this is what it'll look like". I'm guessing that's probably "constructive possession" but it seems like most folks don't seem to worry about it outside the forums. |
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You always wanted a pistol, right? Perhaps you bought this short upper because you wanted to build a pistol but you just didn't get the pistol receiver yet? I have yet to see a case where someone got prosecuted for having a T/C Contender pistol barrel if they did not have a pistol receiver... perhaps none f them already have a Contender rifle frame? Perhaps they are smarter then to post something like this on the web! Go buy a stripped receiver FAST and then you can build a pistol with your short upper. AR-15 pistols need love too you know!
Could have been a LEGAL pistol... There is no law I am aware of that says you can not have a stock that would fit a pistol but that will cause a debate too... |
To be very crystal clear...I have not DONE anything yet. I'm asking questions to make sure that I'm compliant with the law. Both of my uppers are still sitting here in my living room with 16" barrels on them. What I need to do to be compliant is what I *will* do. What I'm asking is, WHEN I send these off to be shortened, if they were to get turned around before my tax stamps come in, how would I prevent crossing the line. It sounds like I have to either have them delivered to a place I don't have access to, or have the shop that's shortening them hold them. It sounds like having them shipped back TO ME and then me giving them to someone who's home I don't have access to is probably not a good idea. |
Correct. As mentioned earlier, the best way to counter this is just to wait til you have an approved stamp in your paws. |
The answer is simple. Ship out your uppers after, and only after, you receive your approved Form 1 with stamp. I want it all now, as well. However, the NFA process is not one that should be rushed. |
I understand what you're saying Quarterbore, and I can appreciate the "you're a dumb-ass for posting this on the internet" comment. Just to re-iterate, I have not initiated any action that puts me in posession of a barrel shorter than 16". I own to AR-15s with 16" barrels, both of which are complete and sitting here in my house. I own and/or am in posession of ZERO parts for them that could be used to construct an NFA weapon. I was trying to find out if I could send these barrels off to be shortened now, or if I need to wait until my stamps come back. Based on the responses, I'll wait. |
Agreed. I'll wait to send my uppers off until my Form-1's are back. |
We use strictly zip-ties and slip-on shoes in my home.  |
| Sometimes this "constructive possesion" gets a little out of hand. I guess you could also say that if you had only 1 AR or other rifle with a rail system and 2 vertical grips for that it could be constructive possession if you had a pistol with a lower "accessory" rail. Since you have more grips than rifles that could constitute "constructive possession". |
It ALWAYS gets out of hand... People just need to be prepared to have a LOGICAL defence on why you have parts that COULD be used to build something illegal. That defence had better be a legal use however... Having an assembled lower receiver with a CAR stock in a gun case along with an assembled 11-inch upper, well you had best hope you have some pre 2nd amendment jurors on the stand when it goes to court! Now, that same upper in a safe when you have an AR-15 pistol such that this second upper is a spare or perhaps a different configuration... I would really doubt that the BATFE could prove constructive intent as the owner has a perfectly legal and legitimate use for this short upper! Pistols make a good excuse to have a short upper around, and an AR-15 pistol is really fun to shoot too
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Quarterbore, Once I have the stamps back on both of my lowers, if I then buy a pistol lower (you have to purchase it specifically as a pistol lower, correct, which just means you can not put a stock on it?) could I use a single short upper on both the registered lowers and the pistol lower, just move it back and forth between them? |
| State laws vary but the BATFE has indicated that a stripped receiver that was never built into a rifle or a postol CAN be built as a pistol. If a pistol was registered as a SBR, you could add or remove the stock as you wish (regardless if the pistol was a Glock or an AR-15 pistol). This really is not that complicted. |
Just trying to get my head around it. 10 years of bubba up my ass doesn't sound like too much fun.  Thank you sir. |
Well that was another constructive post. Why are you in the NFA forum anyway? Just ragging you, I feel your pain being in a non NFA state. It is alot of fun if you ever make it to a free state... |
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