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Posted: 12/20/2005 3:40:48 PM EDT
My wifes Grandfather is starting to give away his firearms to family members, me being the gun enthusiast is getting his MAC 10. He lives in Georgia, I live in North Caroina... how do I do this, do I leave the gun in his possesion untill all the paper work is cleared? Teh other question I have is that in my city, Jacksonville NC the sherriff will not sign off form 4s for people in the military only civiliians from what Ive heard through the gun shops in town and will not allow any of the shops to carry classs 3 weapons. How do I go about doing this, Im a Colorado state resident but with military orders I am considered also a NC resident. I have no idea how to handle this,a ny and all responses would be greatly appreciated!
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 6:12:57 PM EDT
There is sometimes more than one person considered a CLEO. For example: I live in Georgia And Though my county sheriff will sign my forms they require me to also fill out an additional application for a special weapons permit. This is not a real problem but it is a hassle, so I just went to the Georgia Bureau of Investigations who also has juristiction where I live and had them sign me off on my lunch break. Check around you may have someone else who can sign for you. as for the transfer prosess you may be able to find a dealer in NC who is not in Jacksonville to do the transfer you.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:02:00 PM EDT
So do I fill out the forms first and then have him send the firearm or can the firearm be sent and the ffl hold on to it while the paper work is in work. I am very new to this whole thing and Im extremely excited about getting this weapon and want to expedite this as fast as possible!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:34:06 AM EDT
Since you are not residents of the same state your grandfather will have to transfer it to a C3 dealer in your state and then the C3 dealer will transfer it to you. It will require 2 $200 transfer taxes ( Grandfather to C3 and C3 to you).
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 5:51:28 AM EDT
NC statutes are (to say the least) a bit "vague." NC law does not say that an individual cannot own NFA items, but it does not exactly say that you can either. But they do state clearly that the SHERIFF of the county where you live is the only LEO that can sign the forms.


Do yourself a BIG favor and email Jeff Lawrence, he's the president of NC NFA Defense Association.

He, or one of the Co-Chairs will reply back.

NCNFADA@yahoo.com

Good luck!
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 6:30:52 AM EDT

Originally Posted By stucky151:
My wifes Grandfather is starting to give away his firearms to family members, me being the gun enthusiast is getting his MAC 10. He lives in Georgia, I live in North Caroina... how do I do this, do I leave the gun in his possesion untill all the paper work is cleared? Teh other question I have is that in my city, Jacksonville NC the sherriff will not sign off form 4s for people in the military only civiliians from what Ive heard through the gun shops in town and will not allow any of the shops to carry classs 3 weapons. How do I go about doing this, Im a Colorado state resident but with military orders I am considered also a NC resident. I have no idea how to handle this,a ny and all responses would be greatly appreciated!



First off the Sheriff is not the only person who can sign the CLEO signoff no mater what anyone else says. Plenty of people tried totell me only the sherif can sign and that s just not right. I had the DA sign mine.

This is from the form 4

The chief law enforcement officer is considered to be the Chief of Police for
the transferee's city or town of residence; the Sheriff for the transferee's
county of residence; the Head of the State Police for the transferee's State
of residence; a State or local district attorney or prosecutor having
jurisdiction in the transferee's area of residence; or another person whose
certification is acceptable to the Director, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco,
Firearms and Explosives.



If a shop wants to sell NFA guns and they have the FFL to do it(I forget the number for it) then they can do it and the Sheriff can't say jack shit about it.

Anyway at the least gotalk to the sherif in person first about it.
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 1:25:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
First off the Sheriff is not the only person who can sign the CLEO signoff no mater what anyone else says. Plenty of people tried totell me only the sherif can sign and that s just not right. I had the DA sign mine.



Yeah, but have you read about North Carolina and NFA? It's confusing as hell.

NORTH CAROLINA LAW ON NFA WEAPONS

North Carolina regulates machine guns in two areas of their law,
both as machine guns, and lumped in to a category of all NFA
weapons (and some other, non-NFA weapons as well), which they call
"weapons of mass death and destruction". The respective statutory
sections are 14-409, and 14-288.8.

In order to be exempted from the general ban on possessing "weapons
of mass death and destruction", found at section 14-288.8, you need
to be either an FFL holder (including a collector's FFL, type 03),
OR be one of apparently many "inventors, designers, ordnance
consultants and researchers, chemists, physicists, and other
persons lawfully engaged in pursuits designed to enlarge knowledge
or to facilitate the creation, development, or manufacture of
weapons of mass death and destruction intended for use in a manner
consistant with the laws of United States and the State of North
Carolina." While there are a few other exceptions, they do not
apply to most people.

In addition to machine guns being regulated as weapons of mass
death and destruction, section 14-409 of the North Carolina
statutes regulates machine guns in particular. It says that it is
illegal to have one, unless you fall one of into several
categories:

1. Banks, merchants and recognized businesses that have obtained a
permit for the gun from their counties sheriff;

2. persons in the U.S. military, while engaged in their duties;

3. persons in the state militia, while engaged in their duties;

4. peace officers, while engaged in their duties;

5. "the manufacture, use or possession of such weapons for
scientific or experimental purposes when such manufacture, use or
possession is lawful under federal laws and the weapon is
registered with a federal agency, and when a permit to manufacture,
use or possess the weapon is issued by the sheriff of the county in
which the weapon is located";

6. persons who possessed such guns as a war souvenir before the
law was passed may also keep them legally if they register them
with their sheriff.

Since the laws suggests you need the "permit" after you acquire the
machine gun, not before, ATF should not require proof of a state
permit that only applies after you take delivery to approve a form
4. However, as of January, 2000, I understand that, after the N.C.
A.G. got interested in this law and discussed it with NFA Branch,
ATF is requiring proof of a permit before they will approve a
machine gun transfer form, including a transfer to a dealer.

A permit from the sheriff of the county where the machine gun is
lcoated, in addition to the Form 4, is required to possess a
machine gun legally, under the law. Arguably, possession of a
machine gun under the permit is exception requires a permit from
any county where the machine gun is located, at any time, including
moving the gun with your personal property from one residene to
another, or even transporting it. See the email from the A.G.'s
office, below, indicating in an informal opinion that no permit is
needed to move it through counties from place of purchase to its
place of storage, although a permit is needed for where it will be
stored, and if it is to ever be stored in a new county, a permit
from the sheriff of that county will be needed.

The permit would be for "scientific or experimental" purposes,
unless you fall into one of the other categories. However, your
sheriff may consider the approved Form 4 to be your "permit".
Whether the D.A. would agree that a form 4 signed by the sheriff is
a "permit" is another issue, and whether collecting and fun
shooting is possessing for scientific or experimental purposes is
yet another issue. In addition, to comply with the "weapon of mass
death and destruction" statute you need to either have an FFL, or
have the gun for purposes listed as lawful in that statute.

Until the late 1980's North Carolina law defined any firearm which
was set up to fire 31 or more rounds without reloading as a machine
gun, regardless of whether it fired more than one shot with a
single pull of the trigger. See State v. Lee, 877 N.C. 242 (1970),
for a discussion of the prior statute. Lee possessed an apparently
semi-automatic Universal M-1 carbine with a 30 round magazine, and
was prosecuted, the prosecutor apparently counting 30 rounds in the
magazine and one in the chamber to reach 31. This prior definition
excluded some machine guns, since it was dependent soely on
magazine capacity, and as shown by the Lee case, included some guns
which are not usually considered machine guns. As a result, many
persons have machine guns in N.C., for which they do not have a
permit, and arguably do not qualify for a permit either - they
don't have the gun for the extremely limited reasons in the law.
A push has started (1/2000) to get section 14-409 repealed, or
amended to permit any Federally registered machine gun.

James H. Jeffries III, a attorney who practices firearms law in
North Carolina and in various federal courts, offers these
additional thoughts:

You may wish to point out that (1) where two statutes
inconsistently address the same subject matter (e.g., the
collector's exception for weapons of mass death and destruction),
the specific statute (the MG statute) will be deemed to prevail
over the general; (2) the great bulk of MGs legally registered in
NC occurred before 1989 when the statute defined a MG as anything
with a 31-round capacity or greater, regardless of type of fire
(it has now been amended to use the federal definition); (3) many
of the 100 NC sheriffs have no knowledge of the law and are
conditioned by our pistol permit scheme to sign gun permits; (4)
the NC AG's office for a long time was equally ignorant; (5) BATF
continued to believe that NC is a MG state because many sheriff's
continue to (erroneously) sign Forms 4 and 5; (6) some of the urban
sheriffs and the state AG are beginning to wake up; (7) we have a
general firearms forfeiture statute which makes seizable any
firearm used (possessed) in violation of the law.

I refrained for years from disseminating this info because of the
potentially devastating effect on MG owners, but the word is now
out. I have advised NC clients for several years that purchasing
a MG in NC is a risky proposition and that only legislation can
change the situation.

Link Posted: 12/22/2005 7:57:34 AM EDT
A couple of thoughts:

1) According to ATF, if you reside in multiple states, you can buy guns in all of those states as a resident, during the time that you actually "reside" there. So a NY resident with a summer home in FL can buy guns in FL as a resident during the time that they are actually in FL.

In your case, you have an established residence in CO, so check into getting a CLEO to sign there.

2) Some of the legal types might chime in, but there is nothing establishing exactly what "residence" consists of. If you stay with Grandpa in GA for a couple of weeks, do you "reside" there during that time? If so, you could get a signoff there while residing with Grandpa. Just to be safe, go back and "reside" some more when the paperwork comes back and you actually take possession. Once you have the gun, file a 5320 to move it to CO or NC. (you will likely have to leave the gun with Grandpa until that paperwork clears. Or file when Grandpa gets the approved Form 4 back and pick up the gun after the 5320 is approved.)

Disclaimer: while I read this to be within the letter of the law, I am not a lawyer and you use this advice at your own risk. In an extreme case, I guess this might be construed as tax evasion (paying one tax instead of two).
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 1:27:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 1:28:24 PM EDT by M4Madness]

Originally Posted By GarrettJ:
Once you have the gun, file a 5320 to move it to CO or NC.



According to the post in blue above, if you live in North Carolina, you must have a "permit" from your county sheriff before the BATF will even approve a Form 4. I'm sure that they would not approve a Form 5320 to move the machinegun into NC either without this permit.
Link Posted: 12/26/2005 7:00:05 PM EDT
Thanks for the help!! In process as we speak!
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 1:29:16 PM EDT
You'll have to get the Jax Sherrif to write off on it.
Get a Class III dealer in Grampys state to send it to a CLIII in NC.
Send in the form to BATF, when ok p/u from NC CL III dealer.

That said, I live in Morehead....
DO NOT USE THE DUDE IN AYDEN to do a trnsfr. He'll charge 200 bux for it!!
DO NOT TRY TO SHOOT @ Flatwoods, that guy is deathly affraid of anyone or anything that is Class III. For an ex- marine sniper he dont know Sheet about class III stuff.

I think the range in Havelock ( B& R ) will let you shoot it as long as you have your tax stamp. OR you will have to assure him your compentant to fire it off.

Good luck,

Hell I gotta find a 9mm can and pistol.
Ima just go blast it it the woods when I am at home ( as long as it aint huntin' season).
Everyone in Onslow and surrounding counties are ignoratn about class III.

Link Posted: 1/8/2006 2:28:32 PM EDT
I know the guy a flatwoods and you are so right about him. He calls the sheriff adn needs to be warned ahead of time and all kinds of mess. Onlsow is supposed to be getting a new sheriff soon so hopefully he wont be a s gun shy as this one is! Thanks for the info
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 6:05:06 PM EDT
He says he does, I've never seen a Clas III anything out there.
He is a nice guy, but he is so F>O>S!
I like the guys there , but I don't ask them didly about nada, I really dont think they have a clue.
Everywhere I go (ranges) in this country, that allow FA, or other NFA, items, know thier crap!
I hate living in BFE!
Good thing I am always on the road LOL.\
PS if anyone is traveling , I may have been to a range in that state, I can give ya some insights!
Link Posted: 1/8/2006 7:16:27 PM EDT
Ive seen one guy there shooting his izu, an older guy rambling about how his dad was the Sgtmaj on the air station and this and that for like two hours but me and my buddy listened....why... because he let us shoot his guns
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