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Posted: 8/8/2011 8:01:19 AM EDT
| Disregarding historical accuracy and tradition, what is the most practical black powder weapon available? I am talking about quick loading, modern materials/projectiles, multiple shots. |
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People overlook the obvious. The minie ball allowed a "rifle" to be reloaded as rapid and as many times as a smooth bore musket. The use of minie balls in a rifled musket thus provided for a very accurate and rapidly reloadable weapon with a .58 caliber 525 gr projectile.
Given that the average rifled musket is accurate to 200 yards or so on deer sized targets and can sustain 3-4 rounds per minute using properly prepared paper cartridges, that "old" technology is still very hard to beat. And a shorter rifled musket like a Zouave or a two band Enfield is also light, handy and very portable. Shot side by side I have yet to see an in-line design that can compete either in rate of fire or in terms of terminal ballistics. The rifled musket was after all "mil-spec". |
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People overlook the obvious. The minie ball allowed a "rifle" to be reloaded as rapid and as many times as a smooth bore musket. The use of minie balls in a rifled musket thus provided for a very accurate and rapidly reloadable weapon with a .58 caliber 525 gr projectile. Given that the average rifled musket is accurate to 200 yards or so on deer sized targets and can sustain 3-4 rounds per minute using properly prepared paper cartridges, that "old" technology is still very hard to beat. And a shorter rifled musket like a Zouave or a two band Enfield is also light, handy and very portable. Shot side by side I have yet to see an in-line design that can compete either in rate of fire or in terms of terminal ballistics. The rifled musket was after all "mil-spec". For deer hunting I cast my own .54 cal lee modern Minnie balls and shoot them in my tc new englander side lock and my tc thunder hawk in line. With 80 grains of pyrodex they are accurate and fast to load. We've shot half a dozen deer with that load and the only one that didn't drop in its tracks is a for my son broke the leg. Although if you want to go more modern, the Sabot with the stick on the end that holds the pellets on might be a touch faster. |
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am i missing something or not understanding the question? Percussion Sharps seems like the obvious choice. Strictly speaking the paper cartridge sharps are categorized as conventional firearms for hunting purposes in most states. Otherwise I'd be in full agreement with you that an 1859 or 1863 patterned Sharps is tough to beat in terms of handling, accuracy and rate of fire. On the negative side there is a learning curve to making paper cartridges. |
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long gun - smoothbore percussion .69. Same as a 20gauge shotgun. Shot, ball, buck. Its all good. hand gun - Ruger Old Army or Colt Walker or Dragoon replica. 20ga is 62cal 
There are two issues at work here. First, it's the same issue as a .410 shotshell being the correct diameter for a .45 Colt chamber as it has a .452 bullet as both the .45 Colt and the .410 shotshell have similar base dimensions. So what fits in what is not the same when comparing cartridge calibers and shotgun gauges. Second, shotgun bores are not as narrowly defined as a gauge formula would suggest. For example shot gun barrels are often over bored. "12 gauge" is nominally .73 but 12 gauge barrels will range from .72 to .80. Similarly a 20 gauge has a nominal bore diameter of .615, but an overbore of .690 would not be abnormal. Consequently, .62 versus .69 caliber is mostly a moot issue - but .69 is probably more correct for practical purposes than .62. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: long gun - smoothbore percussion .69. Same as a 20gauge shotgun. Shot, ball, buck. Its all good. hand gun - Ruger Old Army or Colt Walker or Dragoon replica. 20ga is 62cal There are two issues at work here. First, it's the same issue as a .410 shotshell being the correct diameter for a .45 Colt chamber as it has a .452 bullet as both the .45 Colt and the .410 shotshell have similar base dimensions. So what fits in what is not the same when comparing cartridge calibers and shotgun gauges. Second, shotgun bores are not as narrowly defined as a gauge formula would suggest. For example shot gun barrels are often over bored. "12 gauge" is nominally .73 but 12 gauge barrels will range from .72 to .80. Similarly a 20 gauge has a nominal bore diameter of .615, but an overbore of .690 would not be abnormal. Consequently, .62 versus .69 caliber is mostly a moot issue - but .69 is probably more correct for practical purposes than .62. true.. I tend to get spoiled with modern measurements being absolute, a modern barrel which is bored out can be bored to any size you want and be .0005 +/-..  |
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am i missing something or not understanding the question? Percussion Sharps seems like the obvious choice. Strictly speaking the paper cartridge sharps are categorized as conventional firearms for hunting purposes in most states. Otherwise I'd be in full agreement with you that an 1859 or 1863 patterned Sharps is tough to beat in terms of handling, accuracy and rate of fire. On the negative side there is a learning curve to making paper cartridges. I'm not concerned with hunting regulations. Let me put it this way, you have to go into combat tommorow with blackpowder weapons (not considered firearms by the ATF) . What do you choose? |
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I'm not concerned with hunting regulations. Let me put it this way, you have to go into combat tommorow with blackpowder weapons (not considered firearms by the ATF) . What do you choose? A smooth bore musket(.69) w/bayonet and a Dragoon. Musket allows use of many various projectiles. Single patched ball, buckshot, birdshot, nails(aka flechettes), glass marbles, even stones. A smoothbore will also load quicker than a rifled gun. A minie' rifle WILL foul after just a few shots. With a smoothbore you just ram it down and let fly. Rifled guns tend to be smaller caliber so you can't stuff them with as much projectile weight. Remember with BP the velocity is pretty much the same for all calibers. So the projectile has to have larger mass to increase striking energy. A practiced musket shooter can have a steady rate of fire of 4 to 5 shots per minute. Back in the day, the argument of accuracy(rifled guns) vs. rate of fire(smoothbore) was a BFD. The bayonet will actually perform a fighting function on a BP weapon. Although IMO the typical 16inch bayonet could be shortened and still be lethal. Originally they were made so long to defend against horse cavalry. Me thinks you're not going to run into much of that today. A good c&b gun like the Ruger Old Army is a suitable weapon although my vote goes to the Dragoon. The Dragoon offers more striking energy than the ROA while not being quite as heavy and long as the Walker. In modern ballistics the Dragoon has as much or more punch than the .45acp. The Walker was the most powerful handgun until the advent of the .357mag in the 1930's. Don't ever think these old Old School guns won't ventilate your ass. Going into combat today with any of these would be choosing poorly. But they are definitely better than a sharp stick! 
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I disagree. If your rifles musket is fouling after a few shots one or more things are going wrong:
1. Your minie ball is made from a lead alloy rather than pure lead and thus has too hard a skirt. 2. Your minie ball is too large for the groove diameter of your rifled musket. 3. What ever you are using for powder is not well suited to the task. Pyrodex in particular produces very hard fouling. Even black powder varies. In fact one of the issues that has been identified is that it fouls more than quality BP of the civil war era. How those lower / softer fouling BPs were produced however is literally a lost art. 3.5. A good BPCR lube used in the grooves of a traditional minie ball will help control fouling even with modern BP. About 10 years ago I did a living history demonstration with an Enfield rifled musket and traditional minie balls packaged with 80 grains of FFG in paper cartridges in a repro civil war cartridge box. The result was 10 shots in 2 minutes reulting in 8 hits on a single torso silhouette at 100 yards. it made the point why 90% of civil war combat casualties were inflicted by the rifled musket - and loading the last round did not take significantly longer than loading the first one. If you want to square off with your rifled musket versus my rifled musket for a friendly competition, I'll be happy to oblige with a range of 200 yards - about 120 yards past your effective range. 
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I disagree. If your rifles musket is fouling after a few shots one or more things are going wrong: 1. Your minie ball is made from a lead alloy rather than pure lead and thus has too hard a skirt. 2. Your minie ball is too large for the groove diameter of your rifled musket. 3. What ever you are using for powder is not well suited to the task. Pyrodex in particular produces very hard fouling. Even black powder varies. In fact one of the issues that has been identified is that it fouls more than quality BP of the civil war era. How those lower / softer fouling BPs were produced however is literally a lost art. 3.5. A good BPCR lube used in the grooves of a traditional minie ball will help control fouling even with modern BP. About 10 years ago I did a living history demonstration with an Enfield rifled musket and traditional minie balls packaged with 80 grains of FFG in paper cartridges in a repro civil war cartridge box. The result was 10 shots in 2 minutes reulting in 8 hits on a single torso silhouette at 100 yards. it made the point why 90% of civil war combat casualties were inflicted by the rifled musket - and loading the last round did not take significantly longer than loading the first one. If you want to square off with your rifled musket versus my rifled musket for a friendly competition, I'll be happy to oblige with a range of 200 yards - about 120 yards past your effective range. Fair enough. The OP asked for most practical. IMO the smoothbore is a more practical weapon. It covers more scenarios. I agree with you that a minie' rifle IS an accurate weapon. My 53 Enfield fouled up badly after about 5 or 6 shots. Yes, lubed minie's solve the issue to a point but then again you're using one dedicated type of projectile. The smooth bore offers more options. Oh, and OP you will need a Bowie knife also. Bowie knives never run out of ammo!
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I'm not concerned with hunting regulations. Let me put it this way, you have to go into combat tommorow with blackpowder weapons (not considered firearms by the ATF) . What do you choose? Hmmm... If you're not concerned with hunting regs, but going into combat using old-timey-type tech - what does it matter about what the AFTE considers a firearm? (Seems that'd be the least of worries in such instance...) If you're concerned with durability, go with a stainless piece. If you're concerned with range, go with a rifled long-arm. If you're concerned with rate-of-fire, go with either a Ruger Old Army (If you can find one), or an 1858 Remmington New Army, and pick-up a few extra cylinders so as to make for rapid reloads. Note also - that for versatility, you can pick-up conversion cylinders for these which gives you the option to fire center-fire ammo (45 long-colt loaded to cowboy specs). If you're concerned with quantity-of-fire in one sitting using a pistol (as well as for it's shot versatility) go with the LeMat revolver. & if you're just concerned about needing some kind of over-all end-of-the-world-as-we-know-it, tech-simple fall-back weapon, maybe consider getting either a smoothbore flintlock musket, or a compound bow set-up for distance killing, & something like say a Cold-Steel US Cavalry Sabre or a bayonet or Bowie-knife for close-in work... 
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