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Posted: 8/25/2013 10:21:02 AM EDT
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Do you need to flush with hot soapy water, or is a lot
of swabs with windex enough for corrosive ammo? Thanks |
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You will be just as well off with a spray bottle of water as you will with Windex. I pour at least a quart of very hot water through the bores of my rifle whenever I shoot corrosive. I then clean normally with Hoppes or whatever solvent I'm using at the time. The last step is an oily patch. I check the bore a couple times the following few days for any sign of rust.
Clean your bolt and any other parts that were exposed to combustion gases the same way. Hot water. solvent and an oily patch. |
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I use a automatic transmission funnel (funnel with narrow plastic hose) to pour nearly boiling water down the bore from the breech. Then dry, clean with Hoppes, and followed with CLP. Kind of the same treatment for the bolt face and receiver. Works for me. I do the exact same thing - never had any problems |
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First off, if you use Windex, only use the Windex with the Vinegar in it, not ammonia, & no you don`t need to flush with water. Use patches to dry it out & lube it up. The basic pH of ammonia neutralizes the nominal slightly acidic pH of the corrosive metallic salts from primer residue. That they are "salts" and need a polar solvent (water) to dissolve and be flushed away is the most important thing overall though. As a base ammonia also does dissolve/saponify oils somewhat, and will also react with copper fouling, in case either of those things are laid down over primer salts and preventing the plain water alone from washing them away. Although those concerns are likely minor, and while the amount of ammonia in Windex isn't that high, it won't hurt, and basic chemistry supports that it could help. |
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The basic pH of ammonia neutralizes the nominal slightly acidic pH of the corrosive metallic salts from primer residue. That they are "salts" and need a polar solvent (water) to dissolve and be flushed away is the most important thing overall though. As a base ammonia also does dissolve/saponify oils somewhat, and will also react with copper fouling, in case either of those things are laid down over primer salts and preventing the plain water alone from washing them away. Although those concerns are likely minor, and while the amount of ammonia in Windex isn't that high, it won't hurt, and basic chemistry supports that it could help. Quoted:
Quoted:
First off, if you use Windex, only use the Windex with the Vinegar in it, not ammonia, & no you don`t need to flush with water. Use patches to dry it out & lube it up. The basic pH of ammonia neutralizes the nominal slightly acidic pH of the corrosive metallic salts from primer residue. That they are "salts" and need a polar solvent (water) to dissolve and be flushed away is the most important thing overall though. As a base ammonia also does dissolve/saponify oils somewhat, and will also react with copper fouling, in case either of those things are laid down over primer salts and preventing the plain water alone from washing them away. Although those concerns are likely minor, and while the amount of ammonia in Windex isn't that high, it won't hurt, and basic chemistry supports that it could help. I believe that Windex with ammonia is only about 1% ammonia. Is that really enough to make much difference over plain water? |
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The advantage of Windex is that it contains wetting agents and cleaners that do a better job of getting into the small areas, and will at least do a little pre-cleaning of regular fouling.
According to a chemist friend, Windex with Ammonia D contains NO ammonia. Ammonia D is a form of alcohol. The key point is that the corrosive element in corrosive primed ammo is a form of salt. You can't "neutralize" salt, you have to dissolve it AND flush it out. To do that you pretty well need to use something that contains water. A simple test to determine if something will work on corrosive salts is to put some in a small glass and add a little table salt. If the salt just lays there, it's no good. If the salt dissolves into suspension and "disappears", it's good. Remember, cleaning a firearm of corrosive primer residue is just a preliminary step. After you get the corrosive residue dissolved and flushed out, you still need to clean with a bore solvent to get the carbon and copper fouling. |
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The advantage of Windex is that it contains wetting agents and cleaners that do a better job of getting into the small areas, and will at least do a little pre-cleaning of regular fouling. According to a chemist friend, Windex with Ammonia D contains NO ammonia. Ammonia D is a form of alcohol. The key point is that the corrosive element in corrosive primed ammo is a form of salt. You can't "neutralize" salt, you have to dissolve it AND flush it out. To do that you pretty well need to use something that contains water. A simple test to determine if something will work on corrosive salts is to put some in a small glass and add a little table salt. If the salt just lays there, it's no good. If the salt dissolves into suspension and "disappears", it's good. Remember, cleaning a firearm of corrosive primer residue is just a preliminary step. After you get the corrosive residue dissolved and flushed out, you still need to clean with a bore solvent to get the carbon and copper fouling. Winner winner, chicken dinner. The MSDS sheet on Windex with Ammonia-D lists only 3 ingredients: water (90-100%), isopropanol (1-5%), and ethylene glycol monohexylether (0.1-1%). No ammonia anywhere to be found. Interestingly, the pH is fairly basic at 10.5 - 11.5, which may or may not help. |
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The basic pH of ammonia neutralizes the nominal slightly acidic pH of the corrosive metallic salts from primer residue. That they are "salts" and need a polar solvent (water) to dissolve and be flushed away is the most important thing overall though. As a base ammonia also does dissolve/saponify oils somewhat, and will also react with copper fouling, in case either of those things are laid down over primer salts and preventing the plain water alone from washing them away. Although those concerns are likely minor, and while the amount of ammonia in Windex isn't that high, it won't hurt, and basic chemistry supports that it could help. Quoted:
Quoted:
First off, if you use Windex, only use the Windex with the Vinegar in it, not ammonia, & no you don`t need to flush with water. Use patches to dry it out & lube it up. The basic pH of ammonia neutralizes the nominal slightly acidic pH of the corrosive metallic salts from primer residue. That they are "salts" and need a polar solvent (water) to dissolve and be flushed away is the most important thing overall though. As a base ammonia also does dissolve/saponify oils somewhat, and will also react with copper fouling, in case either of those things are laid down over primer salts and preventing the plain water alone from washing them away. Although those concerns are likely minor, and while the amount of ammonia in Windex isn't that high, it won't hurt, and basic chemistry supports that it could help. Again in plain english: Ammonia does nothing to neutralize salts, salt cannot be neutralized because it is not acidic. For a very in depth explanation of why this is and how to deal with corrosive ammo cleaning, please read this CMP sticky: Sticky Link |
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I would NOT recommend Windex with vinegar. Vinegar can remove blueing. Quoted:
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First off, if you use Windex, only use the Windex with the Vinegar in it, not ammonia, & no you don`t need to flush with water. Use patches to dry it out & lube it up. I would NOT recommend Windex with vinegar. Vinegar can remove blueing. It might if you soak the blued part in it for days. I have a 50 Cal BP kit ML pistol that I built 3 years ago & cold blued the barrel. I`ve been shooting it at least twice monthly since then & always clean it with Windex with Vinegar & the bluing is still on the barrel like it was 3 years ago. |
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The basic pH of ammonia neutralizes the nominal slightly acidic pH of the corrosive metallic salts from primer residue. That they are "salts" and need a polar solvent (water) to dissolve and be flushed away is the most important thing overall though. As a base ammonia also does dissolve/saponify oils somewhat, and will also react with copper fouling, in case either of those things are laid down over primer salts and preventing the plain water alone from washing them away. Although those concerns are likely minor, and while the amount of ammonia in Windex isn't that high, it won't hurt, and basic chemistry supports that it could help. Quoted:
Quoted:
First off, if you use Windex, only use the Windex with the Vinegar in it, not ammonia, & no you don`t need to flush with water. Use patches to dry it out & lube it up. The basic pH of ammonia neutralizes the nominal slightly acidic pH of the corrosive metallic salts from primer residue. That they are "salts" and need a polar solvent (water) to dissolve and be flushed away is the most important thing overall though. As a base ammonia also does dissolve/saponify oils somewhat, and will also react with copper fouling, in case either of those things are laid down over primer salts and preventing the plain water alone from washing them away. Although those concerns are likely minor, and while the amount of ammonia in Windex isn't that high, it won't hurt, and basic chemistry supports that it could help. I tried to explain all that in a similar discussion here last year,with little acceptance.Your probably going to be wasting your time my friend. http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_118/578991__ARCHIVED_THREAD____Running_corrosive_ammo__What_cleaner_should_I_use_.html&page=1 |
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I'm sticking with good long hot water rinse followed by a normal solvent cleaning and finishing up with an oiled patch. I've been doing it that way for over 30 years and it's always worked fine. I never saw the need for or the advantage of using windex. +1 |
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Couple of points:
Again you CANNOT "Neutralize" salt. You can only dissolve it into solution and flush it out. Vinegar WILL attack bluing. I once had a young guy come in with his dad's prized near-mint pre-war S&W Registered Magnum. He'd taken to the range and noticed the barrel and chambers had leaded up a little. Some fool at the range told him to use vinegar to remove the leading. The kid came in horrified, wanting to know what the "white freckles" all over the barrel and cylinder were. I had to explain that the freckles were spots where the vinegar had removed the bluing and there was nothing that could be done to "fix" it. I suspect he and his dad had quite a discussion. The only reason ammonia works to remove corrosive salts fouling is because the ammonia commonly available is mostly water, and it's the water that dissolves the salts. |
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Take soapy water to range with you in a water bottle or whatever.
Flush after shooting. I use WD40 to hose out the bore and bolt face and to displace water for the tip back home. Then normal cleaning with Hoppes followed up a few days later with another light cleaning and a light coat of oil if not shooting anytime soon. Been doing that for 20 years and no issues. If you look at some old picture the Brits use to issue funnels for this very purpose. |
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My normal procedure for cleaning after shooting corrosive is a quick squirt of water from a drinking water bottle down the barrel after I'm done using the rifle. I then follow it up with a couple quirts of a Ballistol and water mix being sure to lightly spray the bolt face. I won't do anything else until I go home later that day and clean my guns in the evening.
If I'm not planning on shooting that rifle again for more than a couple days I break it down including taking apart the bolt and do a proper cleaning with either Hoppes or Ballistol (depends on what else I'm shooting/cleaning). If I'm planning on using that rifle again in a couple days I make a couple passes with a bore snake after the on site Ballistol/water spray and forget about it. I've gone up to three days of the Ballistol/water mix followed by the bore snake and I haven't seen any sign of corrosion. I could probably go a lot longer than a couple days considering the Ballistol/water mix, but while the barrel and bolt face is fine the firing pin will show some discoloration of I don't do a proper cleaning. |
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I do the exact same thing - never had any problems Quoted:
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I use a automatic transmission funnel (funnel with narrow plastic hose) to pour nearly boiling water down the bore from the breech. Then dry, clean with Hoppes, and followed with CLP. Kind of the same treatment for the bolt face and receiver. Works for me. I do the exact same thing - never had any problems These. No problems. |
| There is a creek behind where I normally shoot. During the warm time of the year, I dip a few patches in the creek or stick the muzzle into the creek and use the rod/patch to suck up water. The gun dry fast if I had them laying out in the sun. I I need to run a few patches to dry them, I do that followed by a oiled patch. Once I get home I clean normally. |
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I run a few patches sopping wet with Windex through the bore, leave it in the bore for a minute or two, then follow up with dry patches. I spray Windex on the bolt face and wipe it down with a rag.
Then I clean as I would any other rifle shooting non-corrosive ammunition. I don't know about the specific chemistry of Windex and corrosive salts, but the way I clean has been working well for a lot of years. |
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I run a few patches sopping wet with Windex through the bore, leave it in the bore for a minute or two, then follow up with dry patches. I spray Windex on the bolt face and wipe it down with a rag. Then I clean as I would any other rifle shooting non-corrosive ammunition. I don't know about the specific chemistry of Windex and corrosive salts, but the way I clean has been working well for a lot of years. That's because it's the water portion of the formula that is doing the work of dissolving the potassium perchlorate salt. The surfactants may help, but that would be of very minor assistance. Switch to plain water and I guarantee you that you will not see a difference, other than not having to pay for Windex. If you can wait until you get home or have it on hand at the range, hot water is better as it dries faster. |
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I blast the hell out of the bore, bolt and receiver with WD40 at the range. That will be good until I can clean later in the day.
At home I set the barrel down (muzzle down) into a butter tub then pour boiling water down the barrel from the receiver end. Once I've poured enough to collect about an inch of water in the tub I start a water soaked patch down the barrel until it gets to the end then I pull it back which acts like a piston and brings water from the tub back up the barrel where I push it out again. After about three revolutions of this I pour the water out of the tub and rinse with clean, boiling water. I use boiling water because it evaporates much faster. I use compressed air to remove the last of the water and then clean the weapon as I would for non corrosive ammo. |
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You guys are going to too much trouble with the water, windex and other stuff.
I use Hoppes #9 for all my cleaning, corrosive or not. I've been using it for 15 years on my AK's, 10 years on my blackpowder muzzleloaders, and 3 years on my MN's. No rust anywhere on any of them. I make damn sure they get a good oil wipe down on every metal part before being put away. A couple patches dripping with Hoppes run down the barrel cleans and flushes the salts right out. Wipe the metal with Hoppes well, dry and oil as normal. GTG. Muzzleloaders are ,IMO, the hardest to clean since they are closed breach. I put a fired cap on the nipple, drop the hammer on it for a good seal, then pour a little Hoppes in the barrel. Let it soak a few minutes, tilt the barrel back and forth then put a patch on the cleaning rod, insert it 1/2'' into the muzzle, pull the hammer back and push on the cleaning rod. All that crap flushes out through the nipple like a fire hose ! Corrosive salts gone ! Clean like any other gun and it's done. |
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Up until earlier this year, the Hoppe's web site FAQ's said that Hoppe's #9 was effective on corrosive fouling.
That's gone from the site, and a recent caller said they told him #9 was no longer effective on corrosive primer fouling due to EPA-mandated changes to the formula. |
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I never understood the purpose of the swabs. Why not just use the bore brush and keep flushing it out? The only use for the swab that I can understand is if you oil the barrel after cleaning it. But why would you use the swab to clean the barrel when you have the brush to do that for you? I have used brake cleaner in the past. This past weekend I cleaned my Stevens 520 in the wash tubs in the basement using dish soap, a tooth brush, and hot water. Came out beautiful. After that I cleaned the receiver and trigger group with brake cleaner just for good measure. |
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Up until earlier this year, the Hoppe's web site FAQ's said that Hoppe's #9 was effective on corrosive fouling. That's gone from the site, and a recent caller said they told him #9 was no longer effective on corrosive primer fouling due to EPA-mandated changes to the formula. I've read that before and I'm not willing to find out the hard way so I use Ballistol for all my corrosive cleaning. |
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I have noticed that using soapy water makes wood stocks duller if they are not lacquered. Is there anyway to prevent this, of course, besides not getting any soapy water on the wood parts? I wash all of my guns in the sink/wash tubs now, using tooth brushes and soapy water. Also use brake cleaner for the chamber, bolt, and barrel if the gun was a used gun show purchase and dirty. I also use old rags and pull/push them through the barrel and everywhere else to dry all of the parts. The cheapest and cleanest method for cleaning. I only use Hoppes to oil the action. I don't oil my barrels or anything else and nothing is rusting, not even my old M91-30s |
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Apply a coat of Johnson's Paste Wax and leave it on the wood before cleaning. After cleaning buff the wax off with a cloth. The wax will protect the wood from the water. If you're getting the stock wet, you're doing it wrong. No need for this wax nonsense. |
| Looks like everyone has their special way to clean a barrel after firing corrosive ammo and if it works for you I'm not going to tell you your wrong. That said I've fired thousands of rounds of corrosive primed ammo and I just clean with Hoppe's and haven't had any problem with rifle bores rusting. MC |
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As above, Hoppe's themselves now says the latest form of Hoppe's #9 is no longer effective on corrosive primer residue. But, even with the old formula, you either got the rifle clean, or you didn't. So, it would rust, or it would not. And, this is what I've been saying for years. Just like water, ammonia, etc. Hoppe's didn't/does not "neutralize" salts. It keeps coming back to the simple fact that you either cleaned it properly, or not, no matter what you use. I'm using Hoppe's "new" formula. No issues with rust because I get them clean, period. But, yes, if taking several extra steps makes somebody feel better about it, let them have at it. |
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