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Posted: 11/21/2003 9:51:00 AM EDT
Well my C&R app got mailed off today. Yay! Also have a LONG list of companies to send copies of it to when I get it.

I do have a couple questions:

What is the ATF's turnaround timeon C&R apps? Couple weeks? Month?

Also, the local UPS and FedEx people both have this really annoying habit of leaving things (that I'm supposed to sign for) by the door -- any steps I can take to get them to stop doing that? I'd really hate to see stuff get stolen that I'm supposed to be accountable for. Especially firearms. I'd think the paperwork on that wouls be a royal pain in the A$$.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 9:55:05 AM EDT
I think total turn around on my license was 3-4 weeks. Took me a lot less time to get my first gun. Start saving money. You'll want to buy and buy.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 10:11:57 AM EDT
Most applications take about a month or so. Usually no longer than 2 months.

As for the Fedex packages, I would call and complain. Don't tell them what is in the boxes, but if a package NEEDS a signature who's are they using?

Explain to them you will hold them liable if the driver is forging your signature or is leaving packages without one.

Av.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 10:15:39 AM EDT
Nice...looks like I timed this right...with any luck, I'll be able to order myself christmas presents

Forgot the other question I was going to ask.

Eventually I'd like to build up a nice rifle off a mauser action -- assuming I find a suitable action (i've heard the yugo m48a's aren't good for building a custom rifle off of) -- what are the legalities of buying it using my C&R license, then a couple years down the road building that action into a new rifle? OK? Not ok?
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 11:48:25 AM EDT
You could do pretty much whatever you want, but it will no longer be a C&R rifle, even though it started off as a C&R action.

There is a lot of debate whether a barreled receiver is really a C&R item.

Don't break any federal or state gun laws, not that there are many for a bolt action, and you will be fine.

Av.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 1:39:06 PM EDT
Well, I was thinking more along the lines of finding a Mauser that the wood is cracked, etc, and maybe doesn't have the best bore anymore (Since I'd be going with a different caliber, anyway) or something more along those lines than looking JUST for an action.

So there aren't any problems with taking something like that that I bought via a C&R, building it up into something new? I'm confused on how one would note that in the bound book, since you still have the action (and thus the firearm) noted in the book (because of the purchase), yet it wouldn't be C&R anymore, etc, etc....my brain hurts Maybe I'll just deal with it when I get around to doing it, lol.

-FOTBR
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 2:51:05 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 2:51:49 PM EDT by Avalon01]
Myself, I would log it when I received the receiver/firearm per C&R rules.

During the building of the sporter, I would be sure not to remove/obscure the original S/N.

If I sold it, I would log it per C&R rules.

Basically treat it like a C&R for logging purposes. When selling it treat it like a regular rifle, since it is no longer a C&R.

Call the ATF to find out for sure.

Av.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 3:53:45 PM EDT
Typically three to six weeks on the application approval.

I have a lot of things left on my porch as well, but all firearms I have received have been tagged "Adult over 21 signature required" and HAVE NOT been left. I get a notice telling me to pick it up at the local office or they will attempt to deliver the next day. I typically call and have them hold it.

I also know that you can specify when you purchase a C&R firearm that it be shipped with a notice requesting it be held at the local processing facility and notify you rather than sending it on a truck for delivery.

Prepare to enter the poorhouse!
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 6:08:37 PM EDT
Well, they leave things that require a signature all the time. The UPS guy just makes a squiggly line on their little pad, not sure what the FedEx people do.

I'll look into having them just hold it at their facility, since its about 2 blocks from my place. Hadn't thought about doing it that way...might actually turn out to be the best.

As for being in the poor house, well, yeah, I'll stay there, but at least all have more toys. Plus, there's that little deal about discounts from midway and brownells, which will be much appreciated as well.

Thanks for the advice all, More to follow when I get that nice sheet of paper..
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 9:09:10 AM EDT
The receiver is the firearm and is always C&R, the rest is unregulated parts. Any firearm over 50 years old is C&R, not just military.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/22/2003 5:39:14 PM EDT
Buy the rifle as a C&R, log it in your books then wait a few months and log it out of your books to yourself as a personal firearm. Then modify it. What you want to do is not clearly covered under the C&R rules. Doing it the way I described prevents any accidental forays on the wrong side of the law.
I have heard that if a C&R is modified it no longers qualifies as a C&R, once again that is one of the many vague areas on the books. The way it was described to me was that a type 3 C&R license is there to facilitate the acquistions of firearms for legitimate collectors. I.E. legit collectors do not cut up, modify or whatever to collectables weapons.
Whether this is true or not I don't know. But if the ATFE comes a knockin it will be far easier to explain this than it would be to tell them why a "sawed off" K98 has historical significance.
Just my opinion....
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 4:51:14 AM EDT
Thanks GaryM.. That was pretty much how I read things, but I couldn't find a clear-cut answer to anything.

I think that's probably what I'll end up doing if I do decide to do that. Of course, knowing me, I'll probably keep spending the "custom rifle" fun on more "hey that look neat and I don't have one yet" type stuff

Again, thanks to everyone for putting up with my goofy questions.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 8:10:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/23/2003 8:14:16 AM EDT by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By Chuck:
The receiver is the firearm and is always C&R, the rest is unregulated parts. Any firearm over 50 years old is C&R, not just military.
-- Chuck



No, for a firearm to be considered C&R it has to be on the C&R list. Just because it is 50 years old does not make it C&R.

Also, recivers and barreled recivers are not C&R. They are advertised as such, but according to the ATFE the only way a rifle or handgun is C&R is if it is orginal configuration.

Did you notice that the "CA legal" Yugo SKS's are no longer C&R? By chopping of the grenade launcher, it was modified from "original" and no longer C&R. That is why it is illegal to add detachable mags to most SKS's. Sure people do it, but it is not legal.

Av.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 8:13:32 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GaryM:
I have heard that if a C&R is modified it no longers qualifies as a C&R, once again that is one of the many vague areas on the books.



No it's not vauge, it is made clear in the regulations.

Modify a C&R and it is no longer a C&R. It now has to comply with the '89 ban (if applicable) and '94 ban (if applicable), and if sold must go through a 01 FFL.

Av.
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:22:20 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
Did you notice that the "CA legal" Yugo SKS's are no longer C&R? By chopping of the grenade launcher, it was modified from "original" and no longer C&R.



Since when? I just ordered a "U-Fixum" Yugo SKS from Century about a month or so ago with my C&R and received a "Kalifornistan Eunich".

I have to dig through the regs myself because I've heard both sides of the argument re: modification affecting C&R status (both with regs quoted to support their claims) and don't know who to belive. I plan on doing the camo thing to that beater SKS of mine and can't imagine that would affect it's status as a C&R, but who knows?
Link Posted: 11/23/2003 6:50:07 PM EDT
Well... pray for me guys (and my wallet...)

I just sent off my C&R app.

First purchase will be an SKS... but I need to decide between a Yugo or Albanian. Got any input?

Then I'd like to get a Mosin Nagant 91/30.. then a Mauser or two.. then a...

Link Posted: 11/23/2003 9:30:22 PM EDT
I have one of each. My Albanian is a 1978 and it has quite a few machining marks. Looks like it was made by drunks.

I've heard the older ones are much nicer.

My Yugo is one of the "like new" ones with the logbook. The book kind of makes you think it was made in 1986. According to the serial number charts it should be 1968.

Both of these shoot about the same. I got a Robert Springfield trigger job on the Albanian since it just had a TERRIBLE gritty trigger pull. Nice now.

Get both.<G>

I got a 91/30 last. Haven't shot it yet.

Dennis Jenkins



Originally Posted By Matthew_Q:
Well... pray for me guys (and my wallet...)

I just sent off my C&R app.

First purchase will be an SKS... but I need to decide between a Yugo or Albanian. Got any input?

Then I'd like to get a Mosin Nagant 91/30.. then a Mauser or two.. then a...


Link Posted: 11/24/2003 3:30:21 AM EDT
Reread the regs. Any firearm 50 or more years old is a Curio and Relic. The list notwithstanding.

-- Chuck
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 7:15:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/24/2003 7:16:26 AM EDT by Avalon01]

Originally Posted By Red-Leg:

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
Did you notice that the "CA legal" Yugo SKS's are no longer C&R? By chopping of the grenade launcher, it was modified from "original" and no longer C&R.



Since when? I just ordered a "U-Fixum" Yugo SKS from Century about a month or so ago with my C&R and received a "Kalifornistan Eunich".



I just checked AIM surplus, Centerfire, Interordinance, and a couple others.

Most don't list the CA Yugo at all, but as of a week ago AIM had taken the CA Leagl Yugo off the "C&R" listings. Several SKS boards were reporting that C&R holders trying to buy CA Legal Yugos were turned away.




I have to dig through the regs myself because I've heard both sides of the argument re: modification affecting C&R status (both with regs quoted to support their claims) and don't know who to belive. I plan on doing the camo thing to that beater SKS of mine and can't imagine that would affect it's status as a C&R, but who knows?



Painting a stock will not affect the status of the rifle, but putting modifying it otherwise might (new sights,etc). I have various regs at home I can quote.

The biggest problem is, the ATF is not enforcing the regs. If they would go and enforce the laws, there wouldn't be a bunch of people with detachable mags in their SKS's and there wouldn't be a lot of "sporterized" weapons oth there.

Av.
Link Posted: 11/24/2003 4:56:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Avalon01:
The biggest problem is, the ATF is not enforcing the regs. If they would go and enforce the laws, there wouldn't be a bunch of people with detachable mags in their SKS's and there wouldn't be a lot of "sporterized" weapons oth there.

Av.



I think it's more accurate to say that BATFE selectively enforces what they want when they want (usually when it fits their whim to screw somebody).

Point taken however. I still need to look it up for myself.
Link Posted: 11/25/2003 8:38:13 PM EDT
FanoftheBlackRifle, getting your C&R is a very good idea. I have mine, and aside from weapons I get a discount from Brownell's and Midway.
If you want to build a rifle many start with a Turk mauser. Many have shot out barrels and are bought for the action. Be aware that there are small ring and large ring Turks. You want a large ring Kale Turk. The large ring receiver can basically shoot anything that will fit in the magazine, so caliber choice is open. There are some issues with some calibers, email me if you want links.
The BATFE has a list on their website with specific weapons that are C&Rs. A weapon is a C&R if it is on the list or is 50 years old or older.
There must be proof it was made prior to 50 years ago though. A letter from the manufacturer works if it is close and in doubt.
If you change a stock or sights it doesn't change the weapon's status as that can be considered a repair. If you rebarrel an action you should log it in your bound book as removed from C&R status. For example, if I buy a Kale Turk, rebarrel it into a .22-250 it is no longer a C&R rifle. If I buy another 98k mauser that has a cracked stock, replacing the stock will not affect it's status. The same applies if I change to diopter sights on my Swede. If it remains in original configuration, not original condition, it remains a C&R.
HTH,
Jim
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