M81's problematic for most any forested terrain: new, the black is too black and sticks out bigly; faded, it starts "glowing", as you described.

I kinda do too.  But choices of stuff are limited, expensive,and their fabric options are funky.

I chuckle at the younger gen's love for Woodland (M-81). In the 80's, the Ranger Regiment wore OG-107s, and the Woodland BDU was known as the "Battalion Departure Uniform" - when you either sucked, or f'd up bad, and got the boot. It also seemed like worse camo, compared to wet and muddy OG-107s. I'll never wear that garbage


EDIT: Also, the YT channel ePIG (German with sub-titles) has exhaustive comparisons of almost all popular camo patterns, including under NV w/ IR.

Yeah the OG-107's rocked out, especially in actual field conditions, as you guys proved for sure.  I also liked the old school jungle cut and slant pockets on them.

Some thoughts:

If you are indoors, viewed from a window, lighter colors work a LOT better.  Dark building interiors are rare.

Will echo others on camo/solid color choices being more of an aesthetic choice than anything else.

I like both multicam and ranger green, personally.  You can wear solids over camo or vice versa, just make sure you look cool.

Range time with a friend gave me a chance to check out my new chosen pattern to see how it works in early spring KS.

Photo Dump:






Final picture, comparison with my buddy's MultiCam:


I'll let the photos speak for how the pattern seemed to work in the environment.  Overall, I think it did well, and we'll see how it looks here in a month or two when things get more green.

It has enough yellow in it to blend  really well with the greens.

My go-to for the south is Multicam Tropic (MC Tropic) and old school flektarn, the green and rust color pattern works very well here. For different seasons, other variations of the German "pea dot" (flektarn) camos work very well.

ETA: don't forget 'Nam tiger stripe for that old school look.

and check here  for various camo patterns and gear sets, here's flektarn

$300 pants? I think they are a little outside the price range of anybody who is not in an organization that buys it for them. Unless they are ten times better than a $30 pair,it's a bit absurd.

Brushstroke rocks. Works well enough on the plains here, especially with spring growth, and brilliantly in the forests.



Speaking of tigerstripe, too bad French "lizard/leopard" isn't more popular. Works great in forests- way better than tigerstripe or M81.

the link is for reference so the color patterns can be seen, you can find the patterns elsewhere for less.

I have several sets of surplus flektarn for hunting, it was cheap. MC Tropic is harder to find and only available new from what I've seen.

There have been a few YouTubers promoting M81 as a camo for civilians since our military pretty much doesn't use it anymore.

I have noticed that ghere are a variety of colors in M81 fabrics. Some have an almost crayon green while others have a much more organic green that appears to be more effective.

I'm just not conviced that M81 is really that effective in any terrain outside of a forrest.

I'm not in agreement with the M81 haters. We were ninjas wearing that pattern. It's designed for the forest. Of note,  SF and SEALs were wearing it long after it wasn't issue any more because it worked.

To be intellectually honest Navy had a wear out date of the BDU much later than the army, while for SF it was mostly (mostly, not exclusively) worn to mix with locally trained troops, which is itself part of the "camouflage" concept as described in "shieding from enemy view".

That said, i think it is a working pattern, being comprised of colors that match colors usually found in the field.

As i already said, regarding expecially the lizard vs. tigerstripe camo i like patterns where black is not present. However many veterans swore to the effectiveness of the black stripes in tiger stripes patterns being extremely effective in denser jungle areas (that are areas i don't have humped very much if any at all)

i like lizard style camouflages, i find that Desert DPM and Desert tiger stripes work very well in my woodland environment, i may argue they are better than their temperate counterparts.
lizard

desert tiger (flectarn.co.uk pattern, not original DTS)

boar tracking with temperate tiger stripes (just for shits n giggles). It is the chinese made VNMC pattern from RoyalTiger which was like 25$ when i bought it

The variations are frequently non "M81" patterns being lumped together.  I've seen both versions of ERDL lumped together with "M81" woodland.  Even within BDUs, the colors varied a bit based on manufacturer, material, and fading.

But yeah, I agree, the pattern is quite overrated beyond its intended environment.  Even "innawoods" BDUs tend to stand out as being too dark during the fall and winter.




As said, cool guy units mostly wore them to blend in with indigenous forces, not the local environment.  They also wore the older patterns to avoid well known crap uniforms like the UCP ACUs or the blueberry NWUs.  You'll note that those same teams have largely moved on from "M81" woodland in favor of MultiCam or AOR 1/2 now that blending in with ANA is no longer a concern and newer, better patterns are available.

I don't hate the pattern, but I've long realized that it's not very effective, even in the forests for which it was designed. I grew up using the stuff in deciduous and coniferous forests, swamp bottoms to sandy scrub and clear cuts. I can't think of anywhere out West where it works well. Even in a dark lodgepole pine stands, it's still easy to see.

As mentioned earlier, using the camo properly is really the key. No camo works with you just standing in the open. I have flectarn, woodland, to include a Slovakian version, and atacs FG. Of the three, woodland and it's varients work better HERE.



I believe it's important to note, and I'm repeating myself, that any camo is better than none and no camo is good everywhere. Multicam looks like a desert camo here.

Even UCP is good on certain couches and gravel pits and it may work great as an urban pattern. I've heard people say; "It works when it's dirty." OK, but dirty takes away it's breath-ability and it really doesn't work if it needs to be a different color to work.

I support woodland because it is cheap and readily available in bulk here in the USA - and gear is easy to find in it.  Add in nostalgia to it 'MURICA! even - and it is the best option for camo in the USA for non-military civilians.  

I would PREFER Pencott Greenzone, Rhodie Brushstroke if I had a choice - or one of the other really good patterns - but there is not alot of options for cheap and readily available clothing and gear in most camos colors - other than Multicam and Woodland in the USA.

You can pick up $30 BDU tops and bottoms in Woodland, and there's a TON of gear, including surplus gear, that's available in Woodland - or you can dye ACU or whatever gear to a OD-ish green to work (though to be honest, the GEAR isn't as important as the camo top, unless you are rocking a full scale plate carrier, belt, and pack)   I am saying this because the average dude out there isn't going to spend a grand or more on a few pairs of pants and tops.  

I STILL SAY THIS too - an oversized BDU top in Woodland, used as an 'over-smock' similar to the Germans during WW2 with their camo - over whatever earth toned pants you have on hand is SIGNIFICANTLY better than nothing.  

I get the whole 'best camo' bit.  I collect camo as a hobby, and most of my camo and gear is not in woodland, it's in one of the better patterns.  But MOST PEOPLE don't have that luxury.  So I am talking about this from two different angles.  One being  'best / favorite camo' - the other being  'what is best to suggest to people who are serious about being an armed citizen in the USA these days to get for gear and clothing'

Best camo overall?  Heavily regional dependent, but Rhodesian Brushstroke - like in the pics above - blends in surprisingly well in both the woods and grasslands.  And Pencott Greenzone does a legit job too.  I'd suggest those too.

Armed citizen?  Woodland top, green-oriented or woodland gear, and earth tone or camo pants of choice.  (Mixing camos with a woodland top works well to mitigate the darker colors in woodland btw.  Around here, we have a ton of dead leaves on the ground all year round + brownish brush below the waist level.  And green leaves above the waist level.  So Woodland tops and multicam or OD bottoms work really well)

I can't really disagree with any of that.

When you talk about an oversized smock, do you mean over your gear or under it?

Either-or, depending on what you want to do, your gear, weather, etc.  Personally I'd run it under my gear, but that's personal preference.  

Below are two examples of what I am talking about.  It doesn't have to specifically be a pull-over top like this - a BDU top that is a size or two bigger than normal works similarly.  Note that in both pictures, you have a camo top and earth-toned bottoms.  Think of this idea as the minimum, entry-level of what someone who is serious about this stuff should have.  

Here's an example of a reenactor wearing a German smock under his gear.



Here's Blue Jean Operator from Youtube wearing a Russian Partizan top, which is basically a modernized WW2 German smock.

The other useful thing about having your top oversized is that you can easily layer under it, keeping your camo on the top and using the more durable top to protect your fleece or sweater or whatever.  Or even your civilian colored rain jacket, British style (who wear their rain jacket under their smock alot of the time).  Not everyone can afford matching camo rain gear and might have to show up with, say, a black rain jacket.

I think the OP pretty much has summed up my thoughts on camo.  It’s for blending in with your environment, but also identification.

I'm just some guy on the internet, but IMO, most official camo patterns fulfill entirely different purposes than actually making soldiers harder to detect and kill. And honestly, with IDF you could be dressed like Liberace and it wouldn't make a difference; we will all look like beef jerky at the end of the day.

We have seen this debate many times before with the adoption of ACU for the US Army, and "blueberries" for the US Navy...and then comically the adoption by many other countries, including enemy countries, of "digital" patterns.

I guess we should all take comfort that such decisions are actually only a senior level circle jerk or dick measuring contest, even between totally different countries.

So aside from plain mud brown or plain foliage green, the next best camo pattern is whatever looks like ordinary people around you, whatever that may look like.

I would go back to the intended purposes of camo in nature: are you trying to hide, attract, or warn?

And I would also go back to nature in terms of cost: how can I expend the least possible energy or money to achieve that purpose?

I mean hell, these West African dudes were wearing wedding dresses and life jackets in the 90s, just how well dressed do you need to be to attend your own funeral?

TLDR: It's the Indian, not the Arrow.

We're here discussing our own personal decisions on what we want to wear and our personal considerations are to refine that decision. We aren't trying to decide what the army should be wearing.


Marns, I gotcha, I have a way too large woodland digital BDU top to try this out with.

Yea.  I keep a woodland BDU top that's 2 sizes too big for me that I found stuffed in a box that I have no idea where I got it from, I keep it on top of my dresser.  It's my go-to  'well, I gotta go outside and do something and I need more than what I'm wearing' top.  At night and it's chilly, checking something gone bump in the night?  It's raining?  Early morning and go let the chickens out?  It's winter and *insert whatever* but I don't need a full jacket?  That BDU top just goes right over everything, no messing with the buttons.  I have had to roll the sleeves back and cinch them down - I should probably go tailor that, but I'm being lazy on a beater jacket.

That oversized jacket idea ain't the worst... Be quite handy when traversing radically different environment, but not requiring a full outfit change. Plus, another insulating layer should you need it.

Yup.  Plus you pull it off, and  'voila' - you have civilian clothing under it.  At least a t-shirt.  If you are wearing, say, a pair of earth tones outdoorsy pants.

Also, those original German smocks and most of the Russian Partizan smocks were reversible - 'autumn' on one side / 'spring' on the other.  Same camo patterns, but one is brown-centric, the other green-centric.

Here is an example of one of the German smocks.

Of course I'm a fan of woodland, that's when I served.  I really like the kryptek patterns that are offered.

I am quite fond of the Mandrake pattern.  It is a good, solid woods but not overly green pattern.  I have a couple smocks and a few pair of pants in it.

Nailed it.


How to blend-in in urban areas

Panama 1988






Panama 1989 Pre-Invasion



Operation Just Cause




Solid colors are a little less 'look at me' if you'd have to be near town - could also look like a Sheriff or Game Warden in certain areas, LOL.

Not everyone lives in urban areas.  I live rural in the mountains.

Note to self.  Have GF knit me a definitely not camo sweater.

I like multicam for being halfass decent in most temperate areas, and workable in a wider variety of areas with a little work. Solid OD, coyote, or ranger green work well as a base, with your LBE/armor/whatever in a good camo pattern for the area/season. Or whatever half-decent pattern can be had in your preferred shirt/smock/pants, Tru-Spec’s all-terrain Tiger is pretty good for being a much cheaper alternative to multicam. (Their combat shirt also doesn’t have that gay zipper digging into your neck)

I don’t see much point in arguing too much over the base uniform, its utility/comfort/durability are more important, IMO. You can achieve near perfect camouflage with a solid color uniform by using a simple ghillie poncho and gaiters matched to the area, since those will break up your silhouette much more effectively than a patterned uniform.

NC doesn’t have any mountains.

Wasn't there a thread with a ton of camo info in here? What happened to that?

Edit - it had a ton of links and reviews of brands and patterns...I can't seem to find it.

Found her

https://www.ar15.com/forums/armory/BDU-s-various-materials-brands-camo-patterns-etc-Propper-MOC-SKD-Tru-Spec-/10-286079/&page=14

I'm originally from Wyoming, I get the fact that east coast 'mountains' are just big green hills.

Ok guys.  I am wrong.  I admit it.  Ignore all the advice above from everyone - we have all been wrong.

This is the camo we should all adopt.  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nU-4fa__qJM

Most camo patterns are too small. Large, irregular shapes work better. Most of the new camo has such small patterns that they look like a solid color whereas the larger patterns work to break up your outline better and at a greater distance. I'd stay away from any of the MultiCam camos. Almost everyone is fielding a version of it, even the Russians.

This  doesn't increase or decrease your odds of getting clapped in the boog or whatever you're thinking.

The guy that says camo is mostly for IFF nailed it. Other than the slim idea that a pattern better suited will help conceal yourself, camo is for fashion. Especially with the prevalence of thermal.

With that said I rock multicam. I can pass for an SRT guy in the tri-county area, accordimg the Cpt of the Sheriffs Office lol

Attached File

Dude, where'd you find my trou?!

Firstly, look at your pockets. You need to be able to access them. Plus, you might want some velcro on the sleeves, for flags, ID, or whatever. Plus, the newer stuff is wicking, and with a carrier on, it makes a difference.

So, that leaves out a lot of the older stuff, because, it's simply not made that way. Same thing with the bottoms. You will want a tech pocket, mag pockets for spares, other stuff you need to be able to carry and access.

Lastly, if you are urban, camo won't do you much good. In fact, as was mentioned earlier, it might be bad.  For the bulk of the population, you'll be manning a road block, or a ditch, or maybe a hole. Static positions. You won't be moving to contact like high speed guys. You'll be holding a line, and getting stuff rained down on you. Think overhead cover, firing ports, sandbags, at least in this AO. You venture out into the glades, and you probably won't survive. The environment out there is more hostile than just about any enemy. The grass will cut you to ribbons.

Think about how you would have done in Fallujah, if your job was defense instead of offense. Also, think permethrin, DEET, bug nets and long sleeves in the summer. I have experience being out there all night in this environment. Believe me, it's going to suck.

Not for nothing, but I'd avoid black and red anything, since that seems to be the commie uniform of choice.

You can get NYCO BDU's cheap, using the same material the military is still using.

And pockets / velcro mods are easily done if you have to go that route.  

As for bottoms - I'm just going to roll that into the whole  'well, on one hand, you say older camo uniforms don't work, you gotta have the newest high speed uniforms because of special pockets and such!'  but then the next section  'but camo is bad and is going to get you killed and you are going to be sitting in a foxhole anyways and not moving ever, so you don't need that stuff!'

Again.  The vast majority of civilians cannot or will not buy expensive uniforms, and are going to end up with a hodge-podge of civilian and camo mixes.  Everything from Carharts to hiking gear to oldschool BDU's, random foreign camo, and the newest high speed Crye-everything setups.  But most are going to be lucky to have a few pair of decent pants, camo or not, and a camo top of SOME kind. And the vast majority of them will not have plate carriers - they will end up with whatever random hand-me-down gear they scrounge up or make on the spot.

Sure, part of this discussion is  'what is the best camo we can get now for those of us who want to and can drop a grand or two on gucci camo uniform sets'  and the other is  'what is the best we can do for the average random dude who is on a super tight budget, is rocking a $400 PSA AR with a holosun and has 4 magazines' - which is going to be 95% of the dudes out there.

***

Serious side question for those serious about the whole armed prepared american citizen side of things - is your money best spent on dropping a grand or two on 3 or 4 sets of high end camo for yourself?  Or a couple nice sets for yourself and a dozen sets of generic BDU's as backups for yourself and to hand out to others?

I wanted all my gear in coyote tan but multicam is what was more available so multicam is what I got. If I got what I wanted though it would all be coyote tan, I just didn't have enough patience for coyote tan to come back in stock.

Waffen SS, and Luftwaffe felddivision had some great combinations with smocks. The Germans really understood camo. Sumpftarn is a great one too.

Multicam, for example, works so well in so many different environments (not all, of course) because those micro-patterns help the garment blend into a wide variety of backgrounds. Come out West: Multicam is king. Flecktarn, to a lesser extent, uses the micro/macro effect. I do think the hex pattern on the Kryptek patterns is a gimmick. ATACS AU, I've noticed, does tend to just look like one solid color, which isn't helpful in that case. Too bad, because I like ATACS. Large, irregular shapes can work in some areas, and not so well in others.

Part of M81 Woodland's issue is the larger elements. Compare that with Woodland DPM (the colors are a little different, granted), which is much more versatile, largely because of the smaller elements working as part of the larger pattern.

You seem to be ignoring the moisture wicking argument, or the impracticality/discomfort of wearing modern armor or carrier rigs with BDU cut uniforms intended for use with LBEs.



I'd argue that talking about camo for the average Joe Six Pack who now finds himself drafted into the local militia is immaterial and a waste of time.  As you say, they'll get whatever they can.  The people in this thread are not those folks.  Whether they will spend the money on Cryes, or stick with surplus is the question, and a matter of personal taste.  Some of these discussions likely won't go anywhere, but it's occasionally fun to debate the merits of one style or pattern vs another.  In general, those discussions are to get people to think rather than come to any conclusions.  

That said, the discussion should not ignore the realities of folks in similar situations today.  Armor might be rare at first, but look at Ukraine; people were literally cutting up steel plates to try to make armor.  We'll likely see the same here in the US if things ever get that bad.  Even if you don't want or like armor, the moisture wicking properties, and cuts of modern uniforms shouldn't be discounted.  

***


Buying the best uniforms for yourself, hands down, is the better option.  Having extra sets to hand out is nice, but is subject to the law of diminishing returns.  For one, getting the sizing right for people on the fly is difficult, especially if you've not yet met them.  Even going the smock route has problems, because the oversize options will be a tent on a 17 year old kit who's built like a fence post.  It's doubtful you'll be able to equip more than a few people anyway, and the people you want to work with likely will have their own sets anyway.  It's probably exceptionally rare that someone has mad skills, the right mentality, and a desire to do what is needed, but doesn't at least have their own set of BDUs or hunting camo.  If you're thinking about just handing them out to the neighbors standing watch, the colored arm bands likely would be a better solution.  Camo patterns can be used as effective IFF, but not for folks not used to them.

My 2 cents anyway.


We've got two pages of discussion of camo patterns, and no one has posted these fun, if flawed, maps yet.  Sad.

Combat shirts is a very specific item aimed specifically at people wearing armor.  Sure, if you are planning on wearing armor, combat shirts are worth having.  But again - not everyone can afford combat shirts, which tend to be expensive, much less decent armor setups.  (Saying that, I have a dozen of them for myself, for the same reasons you said above)





Yet alot of people who WILL read this post are going to be in that situation.  Don't take me wrong, I'm a camo nut and I like discussing camo patterns.  Personally I lean towards some of the more obscure camo patterns.  However, at the same time, I'm also cautioning people, as spending a bunch of money on camo - unless you just like it like I do - isn't a productive use of your money, even if you have that kind of money to spend.  You are FAR better off dropping that grand or two on a decent pack and sleeping system, ammo, decent optics, night vision, thermal, drones, food, etc.  Heck, if you don't have most of that stuff (leaving off drones and thermal) then anything other than the most basic of camo should be far down your list (if you have decent outdoor oriented clothing already)

I am a STRONG believer that every American - whether into guns or not - should have a basic backpacking setup and a couple months of food at a minimum, along with the ability to obtain clean drinking water.  Alot of gun dudes completely leave this part out, and instead go buy a bunch of gucci stuff - which is cool.  Like I said, I collect camo, and my primary camo setups are a hodge-podge of cool obscure stuff.  Again, I'm just cautioning people and throwing some ideas out to get people up and running.  Because out of all the gun bros I personally know in my area - half of those being ex combat arms guys -  2 of them have the money to really afford a full setup of expensive camo.  One of them probably doesn't own a single piece of non-multicam black camo, but has a dozen pair of nods and such.  Out of the rest?  Maybe 4 have sets of camo, half of those their old uniforms, the other half a few misc. pieces.  The other couple dozens guys AT BEST have a camo top.  Most don't have that.  Most of them fall into the 'I have a decent-ish, proven to be dependable PSA AR with a red dot or whatever, a half dozen mags, and ammo to fill those' - I have given basic chest rigs I cobbled together or made to the guys who didn't have those.  I know one of them that has a plate carrier with steel plates.  And these are guys who are barely getting by feeding their families.  

If they were to come on here and read that you gotta have XYZ expensive (for them) special camo this and that, I don't want to throw them down that path when that shouldn't be a priority for them.  There needs to be a dual discussion - what is the best camo out there  (Rhodesian Brushstroke / Pencott Greenzone.  I also like Kryptek Mandrake for a forest-ish pattern.  And AusCam and SloCam is far superior to Multicam in that category) and an option for people on a budget who also don't want to wear FedCam or anything that looks like it.

These two discussions actually blend together well if you stop looking at it from the two polar extremes.  We've had some good discussion on here in that sense - solid earth tones being ok in alot of situations for instance.  Especially for the pants.  Camo top and earth tone bottoms work well together.  If you want to say that a decent surplus combat shirt + a wear a pair of OD / Coyote / whatever pants they have is what someone should get if wearing a plate carrier and on a budget, then fine, that's a legitimate argument.  You bring up good points about armor specific camo tops.  Not having to buy a bunch of camo specific pants and using the earth tone pants you already have is a great way to save money.  Or if you got the money, definitely gucci it up.  


***




BTW, I'm not saying you should stockpile camo to hand out.  You are better off stockpiling food and ammo to hand out    I was just trying to make a point about money being wisely spent.  It would probably be better to say  'buy a basic drone instead of that extra set of cryes'





People aren't afraid of getting shot by people who know what they are doing - they are afraid of being mis-identified by the locals who DON'T know what they are doing by wearing the wrong camo pattern.  If there is a chance you can NOT wear the same uniforms the people who might be shooting at you are wearing, you probably should avoid that from the beginning.  That's what people are saying.  It's WAY easier for even idiots out there to say  'hey, that dude wearing a woodland top is not the same as those jack booted thugs wearing....uhhhh.....let's use chinese camo here that came through town last week.  

Or insert whatever camo instead of woodland.  Tiger stripe.  You can get propper brand tiger stripe uniforms cheap.  It's also kinda cool, if not the best camo.  Earth tones.  Surplus camo.  Flecktarn is still cheap for instance.  Shop around for sale - most of the cool stuff I've collected over the years have been via sales and cheap.  There are some decent surplus combat shirts out there too that aren't expensive.  





Agreed.  I like those maps.