My own experience as a lightweight backpacker who uses a hammock is that you need a rain fly (or poncho) to keep rain out

As to the material, yes, double layered hammocks give more protection with a weight penalty, but I've found that treating the hammock with a liberal application of permethrin goes a long way to keeping those blood suckers off your backside. Not to mention that many include a mosquito net to give you some respite as well. As much as I loathe mosquitoes from rain forests to swamps, I would rather deal with a few dozen blood-sucking bites in a hammock than shivering in six inches of water and still getting assaulted by mosquitoes.

ROCK6

It's not that hard for a basic one.  Try starting here.

https://gear-report.com/make-your-own-diy-hammock/

This thread gives a feller a lot to chew on.  I have been wanting to build a modern rough equivalent to the janky old pistol belt, LCE and buttpack we sported back before molle became a thing.

I was looking at the Velocity kit too.  I thought their rig looked pretty good with the exception of that skinny belt.  That doesn't look like something I would want to attach lots of heavy pouches to.  But it doesn't even matter because $550 for a complete set is simply not happening.

Thing is, with some (a lot really) modifications LCE's got the job done.  I've since played with racks, FLCs and LBEs but I keep wanting to go back to something more LCE'ish.  Now it's all about the plate carriers, and while I do have one of those, it will be a cold day in hell when I throw a large ruck over top of it and go bebopping around in the woods with that whole mess on.

I tried building a rig off of one of these awhile back.

Attached File


Put some triple mag pouches, a buttpack and etc. on there, and ended up with big dumb mess. There is just too much going on with straps and webbing and shit all over the place.  I hacked all the unneeded extra parts off and it kind of worked but but not really.  Ended up giving it to a buddy for his kid to go play in woods with.  He loves it.

Tried again using a "battle belt" w/suspenders.  Better, but still not there.

Now I want to try this once more, but this time with proper purpose made gear, and not trying to turn something into what I want it to be.  So thanks, to those of you who posted up links to Brit and Aussie gear.  I'll be looking at those for a belt and some of the pouches to start with.  Think I still like the Velocity H harness, and the remainder can come from wherever, modded probably.  But that's fine

Battle Rattle shouldn't be this hard to make work right.

Are there bugs in North America that bite through modern hammocks?

Mosquitoes here will easily bite you through modern single layer poly or nylon that's stretched out, supporting your weight.

Thanks for the very interesting link!

Double-tap

It shouldn't, but every "mission" does favor some kit over others.

ROCK6

You are absolutely right.  Thank God for the flexibility of not being constrained to whatever CIF hands out.

Problem is, I'm trying not to become a gear whore.  Or going broke auditioning every piece of gear ever manufactured on 3 different continents.

People sharing what they've discovered works well and what to take a pass on helps mightily.

That Jay Jay's setup you were showing a page back seems like the hot ticket.  Think I'll start with their "chameleon" hybrid belt kit and build from there.

My old Safariland SPEAR ELCS setup in the belt configuration.

Double M4, triple M4 with frag and smoke, general purpose, 1 qt canteen, M60 pouch (ifak), 1 qt canteen, general purpose, triple M4 with frag and smoke, double M4.

You can break gear down to 4 major pieces that can cover the vast majority of situations.

1.  LBE Style Belt Kit

2.  Small Chest Rig - you can use it stand-alone, with the LBE kit to up your ammo loadout, or thrown over the plate carrier if you want to armor up

3.  Slick Plate Carrier

4.  Simple Battle Belt - optional, but useful with the plate carrier / small chest rig


Same with sustainment gear.

1.  Main Ruck - pick one that works with all the above

2.  Assault / 3 Day Pack that can integrate with (attach to) the above ruck

3.  Optional Hydration Carrier that works with the plate carrier / chest rig if you don't want to always lug around the small pack while wearing a plate carrier


^^  That gear will cover the vast majority of situations you can come up with.  And if you are frugal, you can put together a solid, reliable setup with all the above for less than you can put together a gucci chest rig with all the stuff people throw on them.  And way less than the price of that 2nd PSA AR-15 you are thinking about buying.  

Starting from scratch, I'd probably get a simple chest rig and a small pack that doubles as a hydration carrier.  This is the cheapest route to get you up and running.  Then a decent main rucksack - everyone needs a good backpack, period.  Even for regular, every-day emergencies.  Look at Florida and that hurricane.  Or flooding / tornadoes in the midwest.  etc.  You never know when you might need to plan to live out of a pack, even if just for a short time.  This means, btw, you also need the sustainment gear to go into the ruck.  Sleep system, etc.  Make fun of him, but go watch Garand Thumb's videos on urban and recce stuff.  It's not so much guns and tactical gear, it's the stuff that keeps you alive and mission capable - which is why people are looking back at the LBE gear in the first place.  How can we carry some of this stuff with us in rural areas without vehicle support 24/7.

Then slowly add the rest as you go.  If you live in an urban area, the plate carrier setup would probably be more useful.  If you were farther out and especially rural, the LBE would probably be more useful.

You can store ALL the above in your ruck and a small duffel or plastic tub.  Including the sustainment stuff you keep in your pack.

If I'd understood this years ago, I would have saved sooooo much time and money.

Those metal strap adjusters on the shoulders look uncomfortable if you were wearing a pack.

When it’s actually worn, those adjusters are behind the shoulders, so they don’t ride under a pack strap.  There is also 1/2” of padding between them and the upper back.

That looks very familiar

The trick with the SFLCS is to remove the lower back panel. I don't know if that system was designed for use with extreme cold weather gear or what, but it can be hilariously enormous if set up wrong. Configured correctly, I find it to be very comfortable on rough terrain.


This is how mine is set up currently. There's a 100oz bladder behind the buttpack (FILBE sustainment pouch) and ultralight sleeping bag.

Wearing a pack on top of anything but an HPG chest bag or Conterra radio harness doesn't agree with my neck. Distributing the contents of my assault pack across an LBE works better. Previously I was using an LBX chest rig, which is a good piece of gear, and a TT hydration pack. The SFLCS carries more and is more comfortable, at least to me.

Pretty much spot on.

I like that, I suspect our old LBE would have evolved into something like that without the proliferation of combat from vehicle and the evolution of plate carriers and short missions...


@marnsdorff
Excellent post! I did some musings a while back and mine were almost identical, but your categorization is spot on for the "systems".

My conclusion was very similar, but looking back now for me, #1 would have been a quality battle belt first, just for initial training and home defense...keeping just a couple of essentials close at hand. I think a quality plate carrier (something that can either be slick or add a placard if needed) comes in next, only from a home-base defensive need (or if traveling). Both can be used together.

Chest rigs are situational, but some can be pretty universal. To be honest, their value to me was doing a lot of traveling in a number of transportation types in combat; seating was much more comfortable More importantly for me, I could actually wear a full size pack and utilize the waist belt for much better weight distribution.  The best value for integration with a pack and potential addition to a slick plate carrier is a micro chest rig those from Haley Strategic or Spiritus. The nice thing about the micro chest rigs that can attach to your plate carrier, is now I can (and have) wear the belt, the plate carrier, and the micro chest rig; very scalable.

Getting back to the Jungle Kit question that kicked off this post, I've really been circling back around the load-bearing/harness design for basic patrolling (and in hot/humid/wet weather conditions). I need to do some work with the Bergen and assault pack for short term sustainment along with my Jay Jay's load-bearing kit, but this concept goes back to the situation and practice of perimeter patrolling that may take a few days. The load capacity can be modified to do almost a "camping" style trip with plenty of survival/sustainment kit, or have the combat load doubled-up, or focus the load out on traditional recce/scouting missions; heck I would even consider this something to wear when checking on snares and traplines.

This continues to be a great discussion...a lot of great feedback from multiple backgrounds and experiences...

ROCK6

-Regarding the Spear ELCS i think it wasn't liked because it sagged and the D-Rings that held the bulk of the belt weight were plastic and weak. Some good pouches in the kit, i think the base platform wasn't that good.

-The EAGLE molle H-Harness comes from the israeli Ephod Webbing (24hr and 48hr variant exists) that was adapted to American needs (LBT 1195 family and blackhawk copies like the ISSAK/LRAK). Heavy, but hydrophobic and with enhanced floating capabilities, weak point was not having the side and back panel sewn together so it fits very large with a lot of empty space in the kidney area. By design you may remove as shown the back part of the panel to slim it down. There is a newer v2 version that is basically a 2 row molle war belt with a bigger harness, again this wasn't that poular. I was issued at a time the original IDF ephod 48hr vest, nice vest for general purpose infantry, sturdy built with a very comfortable padding on the belt thicker but softer than the british hippo pad, most of the weight is carried by the wide sghoulder straps. In the 60s when in was introduced it was revolutionary i think.

-i have never used a hammock for our hills or mountains when i had the luxury of carrying such bivouac material, however i remember around 15 years ago everyone seemed to carry them. i think they were from Hennessy Hammock and could be used also on the ground as impromptu bivy shelters with a sleeve to put the sleeping mat. Not a fan on sleeping on hammocks, however i've never did serious jungle training, some swampy humid areas sucks around here (including rice fields) but i've never been to belize, guyana, panama or okinawa.

-regarding integration between chest rig and LCE, again not a fan of that, but arktis had a mini chest rig (M670) with 3x3 mag pouches and map pouch that could be either leg carried,clipped to the shoulder straps of a pack,  clipped in front of armor carriers like a modern placard or clipped to the d rings of the PLCE harness, to add 9 mags to the 12 you already carried .
it avoided extra straps.

again a simple but cool idea for the time

Differences Between lenght and height of
Top - Ephod 48 hr. webbing
Center - British preassembled webbing
Down - Alice Belt Kit with belt pad

All three are sized for the same person (me those days)

I almost put the battle belt, but I put the chest rig on purpose #1.  

1.  A battle belt won't hold enough magazines without getting to the point of being LBE.
2.  A chest rig is multi-purpose, stand alone home defense, adding magazines to other gear, whatever.
3.  Probably most important, you can wear it with a pack, while you can't with the battle belt.
4.  You can always wear it in addition to your CCW or an outside the waistband holster and magazine pouches that will give you most of a battle belt capability.
5.  Like you said, it was more comfortable in a vehicle.
6.  A GOOD chest rig is cheaper than a decent battle belt setup.  A full-on budget - but useable - chest rig (like a DIY modified chicom rig) is the price of a good meal out.



Exactly what I was thinking about.  It's also just the right size to throw on with your LBE to add more magazines if you decided to do that.  Even run it like a quasi-bandoleer.



I live in the southern appalachian mountains, right on the edge.  And I'm getting older.  While it's not brutally hot up here most of the time, if I go a mile from me, I'm down off the mountains, and it's 15F warmer than at my place.  And high humidity.  95F and 95% humidity is not something I'd be able to deal with well if I was out on foot with a plate carrier and such.  As I'm getting older, I'm realizing I need to be careful - I can deal with it the first day, but the recovery time is getting longer and longer.  I'm not 21 anymore.  That's what made me go back to look at the LBE again.

You have it. The pouches provide the load shelf and function like a semi hipbelt.

Your rear pouches should be stuff that when you are using the belt kit- will always be in it. Canteen, mess kit, emergency ration etc.

You always eat the rations from your pack first - ditto with water. The stuff in the belt kit is in case you go without or get separated from your ruck.

That is why US canteen pouches suck for this- don’t give you a level flat surface. British canteen pouches are flat and lidded and the 58 pattern wb has a cup that goes over the lid to give a flat surface to set a pack on.

If you look most British belt kit is 3-4 lidded pouches a on back - all same. Need to put food in it - fine. Water ? Dildos? It doesn’t matter. Much more versatile this way.

Also this is why the US buttpack is suboptimal for acting as a shelf. It is very hard to get keep a large and floppy and not rigid buttpack solid to the belt and supporting the weight like 3-4 same sized flat top pouches.

It is harder to carry a poncho liner / tarp etc. that is where I like a bum roll. Keep it grim locked to the ruck unless I am dropping it and then just clip it to the rear 2 outboard yoke straps

The only reason I usually recommend the belt setup first is for taking a class and home defense. Most of my belts are only one or two rifle mags and a couple of pistol mags; that’s still a lot of ammo for HD. The majority of classes I’ve taken can be done with just a single spare magazine and a battle belt will suffice. Quite honestly, I’ve just grabbed the belt and slapped over boxer shorts for a bump-in-the-night recce…it’s a fast rig for immediate action needs. It’s just my opinion, but I can totally understand yours as well…which is why I think our complete list is almost exactly the same.


Brother, don’t you know it. I still stay in shape and the wife and I have backpacked up and own most of the Southern Appalachian Trail…almost all the longer trips are during the summer; recovery takes much longer!

I no longer do runs with my plate carrier. My knees are good, but I just don’t need to extra pounding these days. I do like to walk with my heavier kit (ala patrolling), but moving “fast” for training is most a battle belt. We will all come to that point in life where you really need to know your body and limitations. The wife and I work out five days a week, I’m struggling to recover from yesterday!

There comes a point in your life where your combat load evolves to less ammo and more Scooby snacks and comfort items. You may need more ammo, but you'll likely die anyways, so you might as enjoy it in comfort for as long as possible

ROCK6

Yea, my battle belt is 2 pistol mags and a rifle mag.  Half the time I don't even have an AR mag in there.  My biggest threat is a possum going after my chickens.  We just don't have crime around here.

While I get the belt part - heck I have one, and that's what I have on when I go out in the evening to put up the chickens for instance - my post above was to a brand new shooter just getting into this stuff.  Most of them won't be putting serious money into good gear, or they will skimp out and buy airsoft stuff (not that some of that gear isn't decent - Tacticon belts for instance aren't horrible for the $20 or so they cost, to see if you like the battle belt idea)

The reason I said chest rig first is that for $20-40, you can get a complete rig that will hold a very basic loadout and not fall apart.  You might need to do DIY work to it (add bungies to the Chicom rigs for instance) but they are there and GTG.  Or just get a Haley Strategic or whatever chest rig.  

I'm doing this from the viewpoint of someone getting serious about more than just  'I own guns'  for the first time.  You know, the guy who has a couple guns, maybe an AR, 2 magazines, and 3 boxes of ammo, suddenly realizing  'hey, maybe I need more than this'.  

The one thing I'd add before all of this is a decent CCW setup.  Gun, good holster, GOOD belt, and a couple mag pouches.

The reason I posted all this in the first place is I just went shooting the other day with an old friend who just moved up from Florida the other day, getting out of the cities and into the mountains.  He has an AR and 3 magazines.  Carries concealed, but complains that he used to not do it  'because it's not comfortable in the car'.  But now he's getting serious about stuff.  He has a CCW setup, but nothing for AR magazines.  So I handed him an extra Condor chest rig I had sitting around that I picked up for like $10.  Threw on 4 surplus rifle mag pouches I got at the local gun store for $1 each.  Told him to give it back to me when he gets a nicer one.  He sent me a picture of it sitting next to his AR, has his two extra rifle magazines in the pouches, his 2nd pistol in one of the pouches, and a flashlight clipped into the 4th pouch.  He realized how useful that is to just throw on in the middle of the night.  

That got me thinking about what a new shooter like this should get for gear.  They aren't going to go out and drop a grand or two on tactical gear, not right away at least.  So what can we tell your average dude who wants to get them up and running as quickly and cheaply as possible, so that they can then start piecing together all the extra, better, nicer gear without wasting their initial money.  Most of these guys won't go out and get a set of LBE like we are talking about in this thread - especially not at $200-500 like we are looking at.  Or a fully spec'd out battle belt at $200-500.  But they will drop $50 on an entry level chest rig.  They probably have or can be talked into getting basic 'backpacking gear'  (you ARE taking your new shooting buddies backpacking or at least primitive camping...right?).  

After they realize how useful that is, suddenly they start thinking about upgrading their gear.  Just like with AR-15's.  'wait, what can I add / change out / etc. to make this better?'

You don't have to tell ME that a battle belt with decent magazine pouches, a safariland mid-drop holster, and an IFAK is useful.  But that new shooter isn't going to just go drop that kind of $$$ on a battle belt.  Not at first.  

That cheapo loaner chest rig now has my buddy thinking about tactical gear and how to improve  'his' gear.  




Same.  I spent the whole day out in the sun running shooting drills the other day, didn't drink enough water because we were mostly goofing off and while I was good to go the rest of the day, the next day I was all  'blah' until I crammed 4 gatoraides and a gallon of water down my throat.  Just another reminder why it would suck running plate carriers out and about.

Just reading, evaluating, and learning.

Just picked one of these up and set it up. How did you set up the sustainment pouch with rear panel removed?

Unthread all the straps from the back panel to remove it. Slide the side panels back and fasten the straps to them. In that position, the outer MOLLE straps on the hydration carrier will fit into the rearmost MOLLE loops on the side panels.

Same here.  Especially reading the old farts recommendations.  My knees ain't what they were 30 years ago and I'm not out doing this every day, or even enough, to work out the kinks and lighten the load.

This is a great thread.  Thanks for all of the information.

Man, if continuous reevaluation of your perceived role as you age in whatever emergent situation we're fantasizing about isn't the best advice out there, I don't know what is.

My knees are trash. Random tendonitis flare ups. Safe to say I'm not 'combat effective' most days, but stripping down to bare necessities is paramount to making the most of what is left.

This is such a good point and reminder…I’m in a sub-forum thread that is usually dedicated and visited by some serious operators, LARPers, and mega gear whores; understanding your targeted audience is pretty important!

I’ve been working with an E6 here at work, some mentoring and what not from a professional-work perspective, but he’s also dipped his foot into being prepared (full spectrum), and for his guns and gear, he’s extremely basic and on a pretty tight budget. Yes, quality is preferred, but many have to find their own realistic balance. I’m fortunately in a position where I can help him out and he’s been to the range with me a few times and borrowed some of my gear (I’ve given him some pouches and stuff as well). Some of the stuff he has he knows is marginal at best and simply sucks at worst, but he has to set his own priorities and fighting gear isn’t at the top. Yes, the guy is Army, getting close to retirement and yes he does have some field kit, but it’s not optimum for him. He’s not a combat arms guy and grew up in one of the New York City boroughs with really no experience with firearms and most of his military career was communications security related, so very little actual tactical training. He’s evolving (and I’m trying to get him a post retirement job that is much more lucrative!), but he’s a perfect comparison to your buddy as well…not everyone’s starting point is the same.


This is just like backpacking gear. Yes, I weigh every individual piece and keep a spreadsheet. Yes, I shave ounces and sometimes even grams.  I can afford the upgrades and every ounce on your back does matter. I’ve read that on average, you spend about $50-100 for every ounce cut when you upgrade your gear…it’s pretty accurate. It’s also another reason why I just go look at the mirror when I get some wild hair up my ass to upgrade my rain fly or get the titanium widget that shaves 10 grams…I can usually find a pound or two I can cut for free.

ROCK6

So I'm not the only person who keeps a spreadsheet of my gear like that    :-D  :-D  :-D

I am hoping, once most informed posters on this specific topic (and I exclude myself) have exchanged ideas and mfrs/vendors, and when the dust settles to a rough consensus, that there will be a detailed "one-stop shopping" site where these items can be bought.

There is if you are willing to order from England.  Jayjays, Kitmonster, Dixies Corner and a couple others all have their version of this kind of kit that you can order from one place.

The problem is that shipping from England is $$$$$.  Also, I don't like the velcro-only closure on most of the british magazine pouches.  It's fine until it wears out or gets dirty.  All their older gear have other closures and they are still good to go even when beat to crap.

Until someone is willing to become a US distributor for some of these big companies or actually make their own stuff, you will have to piece together your own kit, if you want to order from stuff shipped from here in the USA.  

Your other option is to keep an eye on ebay for complete sets of surplus PLCE gear being sold and shipped from England.  Here's an example below - an entire set of surplus PLCE webbing for $75 - notice that shipping is over $50 though.

EDIT:  I forgot to mention that one place you can do a one-stop-shopping here in the USA is SORD USA.  It's the USA distributor for SORD Australia.  Though they are hit-and-miss on what they have in stock.  For instance they don't have the 1 liter water bottle sized utility pouches that are used in this kind of kit in stock.  And their available camo patterns are really hit and miss if you care about matching gear.  Also, their harness or yoke doesn't have a mesh back.  But it does have the 8 attachment straps, which I like.  

They also have really good clearance prices and do 15% and 20% discount codes every few months if you sign up for their emails, which they don't spam.  They are a good place to get a cheap MOLLE british web gear belt without ordering from overseas.  I've matched them up with surplus british / dutch yokes and pouches for a really cheap setup.

Be sure to check out their smocks btw.  They have been on clearance super cheap.

I have part of a SPEAR ELCS harness if anyone can use it for something homespun.

That could be easily salvaged by using a belt out of a MOLLE FLC, and using 4 point suspenders made by any number of companies.

Suggest never, ever, mentioning the MOLLE FLC.  Ask me how I know this.

Exactly what I did. It just wasn't my jam.

Trying to get a set of PLCE together. Having a tough time finding a Commander Pouch.  Like this one here……

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwi1rNW17cz6AhX9F1kFHXJABHwQFnoECCEQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.com%2Fitm%2FMarauder-MOLLE-Commanders-Pouch-MTP-MAC1046-%2F274689537992%3Fhash%3Ditem3ff4c5b7c8&usg=AOvVaw0mmPDg5p5kJloh5zu6MdqW

My Google fu is week, everyone I’ve seem to click on is out of stock.  Any help?

https://www.nicks-kit.co.uk/mtp-molle-commanders-pouch-1294-p.asp

This was posted on the FLC page back in the day.  I'm from the woodlawn army, so this will always have a place with my gear.  Mod to carry like a grunt LBE, all pouches have been M81ed.  Still a high dollar flc.
Also, a couple birds with a couple stones.  Check out the steam punk pipe for the pc stand.

I did see that one. But I can’t figure out how to add it to my cart.

FLCs were at least better than the LBV in my opinion. I think they were heading in the right direction. I actually like the TAPS as a standalone chest rig. I don’t use the issued suspenders, I use a Danish PLCE yoke.

There is no one-size-fits-all answer for all of this. Like many others have said it is all mission dependent. Having available a war belt, a chest rig, a plate carrier, and some version of LBE type kit should cover all of your bases.  YMMV

The JayJays version seems to be available:

https://www.jayjaysbrecon.co.uk/load-carriage/pouches/molle-commanders-pouch-multicam__3069

Hrmmm.....maybe try logging in first?

Otherwise call them?

FLC's make good 'hand out' gear.

I picked one up a few years ago, new, for $10.  Added a bunch of $1 surplus rifle pouches and a couple surplus canteen pouches I've picked up over the years.

You want to be dumb and not buy comfortable gear?  You get the FLC.  

At least you aren't getting the Mosin and a thrift store fanny pack to hold your ammo.

NVM, I'm an idiot.

Would love that option, but $40 for shipping.  That’s a no go.

I've been considering this, too, but shipping is still problematic.

Attached File


Great information in this thread.

Sounds like a few of you have the same problem. Perhaps you can figure out an arrangement to split an order and share shipping.

We need someone to up and get a US distributorship with some of these companies and take pre-orders to help them build up stock.

This thread put me on the search for LBE.  Chest rigs burn me up in the GA summer.

I found this secondhand on the EE.  It's made by Kennedy Nylon Designs.  It has a bum roll, but I don't know if I have it in the right place.

I think this will work well with my Becker Patrol Pack.

The mag pouches are too short for AR15 mags.  They work OK for FAL mags.  I bought some Eagle double mag pouches to swap out.