Well that would depend on the contents of the rear pouches/buttpack I guess. Assuming mags @ 3 and 9 o’clock, and either 2 rear utility pouches or a buttpack, and 2 canteens around back, the canteens aren’t going anywhere. Your poncho, socks, flashlight, snacks (ok not the snacks) will remain... what else? I carry some mule rope (used in Fiberoptic cabling) with a 950Lb breaking strength, a TQ and Modular Bandage and a BattleBar in a random flavor. Also a boresnake and a OD bandanna. My experience with rucksacks has been limited, so YMMV.

@Diz
Not exactly belt kit but here is my Fastex buckle mod on the Med. Alice pack. Stitching could have been better though
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I need to do that to my ALICE packs sometime.  I got so used to using the legacy straps that it's not bothered me enough to do it yet.  A large ALICE was what I spent most of my Army time under.  I got out in 08 but never was a huge fan of the MOLLE rucks so I didn't start using one until forced right before I ETS'd.  That may have just been me resisting change though

I picked up an older Woodland Molle ruck, but wasn’t too impressed, guess it just creaked a little much for me...
The Large Alice is a beast but if you’ve got a lot to carry it can handle it for sure.

The MOLLE ruck is creaky as fuck but it works.

May I suggest that readers of this thread read the "ALICE Gear" thread linked above?  What is new to some people is old to others.  Please read the linked thread; lots of hard-won info there.

Yeah these two threads overlap sometimes. No worries, we’ll stay on topic.

Hey I did find out that 3 M1A magazines per cell will fit in a PLCE mag pouch, that’s one more than most pouches will hold. Now I probably need to get more mags

Not trying to "police" the thread, as it's not my business to do so, since I am no longer Staff.  Just trying to be helpful in pointing out an additional source of info.

Nice, and a necessity. I have never sewn them on; I just use tri glides. I also pull all the slack from the bottom metal attachments so I can adjust at the top by pulling down from the fastex buckle. Works better for me. I haven’t found a good way to fix the large pockets, but I think that would definitely require sewing.

As far as gear with a ruck, has anyone tried a drop holster on a pants belt and something like a Costa leg rig? That would give you a sidearm and some emergency speed reloads. I know many hate drop leg anything, but I haven’t had problems with going to one strap riding high. Although, I can’t recall going more than five or six miles with a 6004.

@Vaquero
I think I can visualize what you’re talking about. Only difference is I wanted a way to be able to flip the lid over the top, completely out of the way. Still have to add the Velcro though...

@Rifleman_556
I snapped a couple pics.

Attached File


Attached File



All my pics are sideways today.

Got it. Might do that for my Large Alice instead of sewing. Sideways is better than upside down

It's much easier to use the "Field Repair" QD buckles.  One side has an adjustor bar, the other a slotted bar.  One breaks-off the existing conventional metal buckle, and installs the Field Repair buckle in the stationary webbing loop.  Then install the adjustable portion on the webbing loop that requires adjustment.  It will definitely help to have some good needle-nose pliers to install the buckle with the slotted bat; the usual pliers will serve to bend the metal back and forth until it fatigues and comes apart.  Easy no-sew upgrade, Quite a few colors available.

I’ve used those for some other projects and if you can stomach the buckle costing $5 a piece instead of <$1 they’re amazing.  If there’s more reasonably priced source I would be interested.

Sometimes the right items cost more.  Not my call.

My ranger green rig is up on the EE in the chest rig section if anyone is interested.  Just giving a heads up to you guys in the thread. Hope it's not frowned upon too badly

Interesting you mention those. I had some I was going to use on the three large pockets of the large ALICE in the way you mentioned. But, there does seem to be enough space to make that work and have them snug using the existing webbing. I could have just used them on the main pocket; I do like pulling the straps down from the top though.

However, I did not know they were repair buckles, I had some from a chest rig to PC adapter kit.

Well, you know, there are many ways to improve your gear.  There is nothing wrong with "field expedients". When nothing else is available, you make it work.  When I was active duty, I was so poor, I couldn't pay attention.  So you do what you can do.  Later on, as you can afford it, you have the option of some different things.  No judgement here; you do what needs to get done.

Modifying ALICE rucks actually became a cottage industry, when guys got out and went commercial with it.  I've done a few myself.  

My opinion is the easiest way to replace buckles is to pick out the stitching, remove buckles, and then add replacement hardware.  It's hard to get at metal hardware with common hand tools, such as wire/side cutters without dicking up webbing.  Dremel is great if you have one handy.  Then yeah, slotted repair hardware is the way to go.  Another option is a hand sewing awl.

For small quantities of this stuff I go to Milspec Monkey.  He has a good selection of hardware, including slotted stuff.  

The two things I've seen in my lifetime that have made a big difference.  Going from cotton duck to nylon.  And built-in padding that drains.  

I have my trusty large Alice pack. It has a claymore pouch in place of ammo pouches, side bladder pouch, storm flap, fastex buckles, heavy padding on waist pad with mat foam and duct tape, elastic cargo net to secure a German folding mat between frame and back, tactical tailor IV pouch behind waist pad.
Used to lug heavy loads on courses mostly, on operation or training exercises we would use Italian made patrol packs or more often large bergen style rucks (Eberlestock, Lowe alpine or the issued one that is a good pack).
I got a deal in 2007 and upgraded the Alice to a Tag mountain ruck with its proprietary Alice style Frame. Good pack but it sat rarely used.

Also bought for a couple of rations a secondhand Usaf alice mounted pack by lbt with a detachable lid that doubles as a pack. I used it once for a 3 day event in which members of Italian army retired NCO and Officers association made a walk thru the same path British SAS made in world War 2 during operation Pomegranate.

I was the medically trained one that was to provide aid to the participants. It was mostly bandaids and moleskin for blisters but I had to carry AED and O2 bottles and other amenities. So I carried emergency items in the detachable patrol pack, booboos in the 6 outside small pockets and my subsistence items inside the main compartment (with extra water just in case). It was.... fun :)

Everybody has their preferred method of doing things, and that's fine.

In regards the OEM metal GI buckles being removed, it only takes a few twists back-and-forth to fatigue the metal, and allow removal.  No Dremel or otherwise possibly damaging tool required.  Just grab the side with a pair of pliers, grasp the edge which is bent at right angles with another set of pliers, and wiggle them against one another.  You will be surprised at how soon the OEM buckle fatigues, and drops away.  It was never intended to take such abuse, and fails promptly.

FWIW, the OEM ALICE Radio Pouch, or even the removable ILBE/FILBE/MOLLE radio pouch can be put to good use in carrying an internal water bladder.

I believe it's called a Lumbar water bladder.  I believe I've posted about this before.  The Mil-spec Lumbar bladder is here:  https://www.camelbak.com/en/military/gmi-packs/reservoirs/H02006--MilSpec_Crux_3_Lumbar?color=685d16d5e303452792c37e917fef0817

DO shop around!  Civy versions tend to be less expensive, but may lack some features.  Do your homework.

I've installed some of these uncommon Lumbar water bladders into radio pouches on various packs.  Doing so allows the bladder to be carried near one's center of gravity, and allows room on the outside of the pack for more immediately-needed items.  Being mounted rather high allows a better, easier gulp than a pouch mounted further down.

As always, cover your drinking tube with some closed-cell foam insulation, and also a nylon cover to protect and shield the whole thing.

I suggest hydrationtubecovers.com/.  I've used them before, and GTG.  They will include a code for your next purchase, IIRC.  Try Code   HTC10.  Disclaimer: No financial interest.

Submitted for your consideration.

Looks like my set up. Nice and simple.

I am currently working on a new belt kit.



Taking the tried and true Brit "belt order" and updating it with new materials and techniques.  Using 500d on the outer surfaces and a proprietary material, as used on our rucksacks, on the inside surfaces.  It is soft, very breathable, and makes a good replacement for mesh.

The inside padding is three layers of different materials laminated together.  A softer "batting" material next to skin, an "open cell" foam, for cushioning, and a "stiffener" material right underneath the pouches for support.  All three are 100% polyester.

The goal is to maintain the strength and durability of the classic belt order, but much lighter and less water absorbent.

The base color is a new "Tarmac Grey" as used by Swedish Special Forces.  Very close to Ranger Green which is what I used for all the details.    

The base belt pad is cut so it ends right at your hip points.  So the pouches (and belt pad) are behind and to the sides.  This makes taking a knee and proning out much easier.  And just overall hiking or "Tabbing".  This is something you see in different countries' belt order, as opposed to US designs, which wrap all the way around to the buckle.  The yoke design has 6-point attachment, which falls at one strap for each mag pouch, and one each, in between the sustainment pouches.  This gives the best support for both the belt kit and the "short back" rucksack as well.

Pouches coming soon.

Looks first-class, but I have reservations about the open-cell foam absorbing/retaining water, and its long-term durability.  Please elaborate

I am in the process of R&Ding some different padding materials.  The goal is to get something soft against you, but stiffer against the pouches.  All materials are 100% polyester, so they don't absorb and hold water like cotton.  The bottom outside material is very breathable, so moisture is free to pass through it, rather than be maintained by a coated material.  All three poly materials inside are very porous, almost mesh-like, so the goal is to keep the moisture moving through the material instead of camping out in there.  But yes, it is an R&D process so there is a lot of trial and error involved.  In the past, most designs used a harder, closed-cell foam, which is just a "one-trick pony".  It will cushion, and is WP, but it only has one density, and gets hot as hell.  What I'm going for here is different densities, to give a little more comfort, but still have the structure to support the load.  Yes it will soak through, but hopefully it will also dry out quick, especially on the march, with the weight of the ruck compressing it.  And perhaps be a bit cooler as well.  

We use something very similar in our ruck straps and waist pads.  There is a softer foam layer nest to you, then a medium density foam for cushion and support, and finally a polymer stiffener sheet on the outside to support and maintain shape.  This works very well and dries out quickly in the field.  I am attempting to carry this forward with a belt kit design.

As far as durability, we have had rucksacks being tested for the past few years, around the world, with very good feedback and results.  The parent company in Australia I work for has made rucks for their SF regiments for over 30 years.  So yeah, while we are constantly pushing the envelope to develop new techniques, it's based on solid, legacy designs.  I have used similar "fill" materials on sniper drag bags, chest rigs, etc. with good results.  

As to this particular design, there's only one way I know of to find out if stuff really works: go out and test it!  This particular belt kit is part of our AW (artic warfare) load out that will be tested above the artic circle next winter.  Fun stuff.

I have developed some respect for your opinions over time.  Not that that matters much.

Looking forward to your success!

@Diz
Very cool!
Maybe add some nylon keepers for the excess straps to avoid using tape? IDK just throwing that out there for ya.

+1 for keeping the adjusters low along the belt so there’s nothing to rub when worn under armor.

Hey thanks my brothers.  I don't know if this will work but I'm not afraid to try new shit.  I have 3 other materials in mind to test out.  This is the "soft" version.  The next one will be the "hard" option with closed-cell foam, then 3d spacer mesh.  The idea is to test them all out and compare how they all work.  

Yeah this is fresh off the sewing table stuff.  When rigging for actual testing I will probably use some combo of one-wrap and duct tape.  I'm pretty ocd about loose straps.

The thing I'm trying for is to "goldilocks" the strap padding to work with the ruck straps.  If you get too much padding stacked up on top of each other, like some of the later LC-2 stuff, it's almost as bad as no padding at all.  So I'm looking for some kind of say 60-40 combination of ruck to belt kit padding.  For example, if the ruck needed say 1" of padding, then I want to split that into 5/8" padding on the ruck, and 3/8" padding on the belt kit yoke.  Because if you tailor them right, where they overlap properly, then you can reduce weight and bulk on both of them.  

Also for the AW kit, since they will already be wearing a lot of insulation, you can get away with less padding.  

For BA, yeah that's interesting, because these guys wear slick PC's right over the base layers, then comes insulation and windproof smock.  So the belt kit, or chest rig/vest goes on last, with lots of shit between it and the BA.  I think the reason being the BA will compress the insulation layers too much if worn on the outside, pretty much defeating it's purpose.  So yeah the BA is worn low pro style and separate from the load bearing shit.  That's number next on the list; they want something similar to a Ferro Slickster to try out.

Well, you sound like you know about what you are doing.  My best respects and hopes for your project's success!

Here is an OSOE butt pack and two Maxpedition Nalgene carriers that line up nicely along the top.
Too bad either are uncommon and a little spendy for most.

Yeah that would make a nice ruck shelf!

Where can one get that belt/suspender rig? What is "V/M" ?

Well as we have been discussing, the V/M set-up (Velocity/Mayflower) is hard to find, uber expensive, but interesting new jungle kit.  It has not really taken off, probably because of the price-point, which is a shame because I really want to see if the newer light weight stuff holds up in the jungle.  Someone mentioned it might be removed from their website right now, meaning it's either not being produced or maybe even dropped from sale.  Dunno.  Some of the retailers may still have it, like Nelson, OpTac, US Elite, etc.

Quit frankly what I'm attempting to do is cross something bomb-proof like Jay Jay's, with the light weight, less-absorbent V/M stuff.  If you are referring to the above pics, that is a prototype design that is still in testing.

Was that the purpose of using shock cord to keep everything tight? I don’t know, just something I’ve heard before.

@Diz
Got any pictures or diagrams of the tuck tab closure you mentioned? The more I train, the more I hate Velcro closure, and I’ve got a few pouches that I could experiment on

There were some better ones in the PLCE thread. You talking about taping the pouches together? Haven't heard that one, but I did see an LC-2 IFAK pouch resized to a bino pouch with tape once.

Oh, got it.

I was talking about running shock cord around all the pouches to keep everything tight. The Brit pouches have loops specifically for that.

Nice to hear.

I think everyone is waiting for pics.

Yeah Jay Jay's is the gold standard.  If you have suffered with our issue stuff, then you will love this stuff.  Yeah mate you can get two 7.62's in there, sideways, bullets to the rear.  In the old days, they would put a dressing underneath mags so it would be easier to grab the shorter 20-rd mags.

As far as tuck tabs:

   

These are modified V/M pouches my buddy is rocking in Africa right now.



Here is the tuck tab.  You simply sew a kydex stiffener into the webbing, which tucks into the web tunnel on the front of the pouch.  



As an added bonus, you can put a square of velcro on there for when pouch is not quite full.



And here you can see them locked down for travel with the pull tab passed under the webbing.  

I know, it's way too simple to actually work, right?  But it does.  If Jay Jay's did this he would rule the world, IMHO.

Some amazing input over the last five pages - and the level of quality of gear now available makes some of the kit from my short time doing such things seem extremely prehistoric.

A few points to comment on in no particular order:


Sadly, sidearms have never been "a thing" this side of the pond as far as having one on your kit as a mere squaddie. It was once the thing that on being made an officer, said new officer would pop along to the tailors for his uniform fitting and at the same time be offered a selection of "service grade" (service calibre) handguns to choose from - with the leather Sam Browne accessories being modified accordingly. Some arms/roles here were prone to handgun issue, widespread use has been a much more recent development - it was once a rare thing to see a 9mm being carried by folk other than officers or Military Police types. There was even a case of someone with zero handgun training being court marshalled, as he was handed a 9mm and within a few seconds he had a negligent discharge & sadly shot someone else in the vehicle with it.


THAT kit looks HIGHLY influenced by the Experimental "Troop Trials" '72 Pattern set - a cracking idea but without too much modularity - did have a set of it once, sadly in my post-university days of little cash I sold it on...!
The odd accessory pouch of the same style for the SUIT sight & other kit sometimes still shows up, followed by much head scratching from them that don't know



As others said, them Canadian mag pouches are lovely looking - may have to look into them as an option.
BUT - mate - please - that holster is fukkin bobbins - have a word with yourself, it's making my teeth itch!



U wot M8?
I resemble that remark..!



There is, sadly, NO MARKET for "classes at the local range" in the UK = some of the more active shooting styles I do are with clubs/groups which as part of the rules specifically prohibit wearing of ANY camouflage clothing or kit = they don't want to risk some misinterpretation by media scum (hiding up a tree a mile away with a telephoto lens) as carrying out paramilitary training or similar = not that ANY British journalist is pro-gun & would not throw every one of us under a bus to sell even one extra copy of their daily arse-paper rag.

Will continue to watch the thread, but I may need to burn the credit card first or this could get expensive for some of the non-UK sources.

Lucked into a set of the new Virtus stuff a few moths ago - need to dig it out and see how it compares to some of the bespoke handmade options. The Osprey kit is seen around for not too bad a price too as a lot of folk coming back from deployment have multiple extras which are dumped onto local surplus stores for whatever beer tokens they can get

You mention the 72 pattern webbing... The 72 pattern vest "pack combat lightweight", which was popular with SAS has been remade by sotech as the "recce vest". What's old is new again I guess. Wonder how well it would fit attached to  a modernized belt kit, too bad it has no belt attachment I think.

Also found a nice Pic of a under Armour type patrol yoke mounted to an older airborne webbing.
As stated by Dragon supplies those work well under a plate carrier.

NICE = but show as discontinued - I'd be all over one like cheap suit

I dunno, being a dumb civilian.  I have some experience with USGI gear over the decades.  And some experience with foreign gear over the same time.

It strikes me as a very weird thing that it is well-understood about the body of the average soldier, and his weight-carrying capacity.

What is truly weird is how many different approaches to this fundamental problem exist.   IMHO, there ought to have been a certain "funneling-down" towards a system that is fundamentally useable by the average soldier.  Sure, certain things/dimensions might vary, but the fundamental carriage system should have been pretty much figured-out by now.

I get it that there are existing legacy systems, and with the winding-down of active combat ops money is drying up for research.  Every country has an interest in keeping their own gear mfrs operating, and being a national (political) asset, if need be.

Still, I can't help but think that this general load carriage system ought to have been figured-out long ago.  Sure, improved materials and so forth come down the poke all the time, and that is expected.

Scratching my head.

Someone help me!

@Diz
Thanks for the pics. Might find some pouches to cannibalize

@raf  
Methinks that’s what was attempted with the Molle system, but failed. As a rule, military kit is neither the best quality or the most comfortable, and is mass-produced to outfit huge numbers of troops as economically as possible. If the rank and file were encouraged to use personal gear as long as it’s durable and doesn’t detract from combat effectiveness, it would probably lead to less excess weight and ill-fitting equipment.