Its my current job to assess capability gaps for combat troops at the operational point of need and develop/implement solutions for future needs.  The current dilemma isn't that when it's hot, humid and tropical should we ditch the weight and go 1960's recondo or not.  It's what is the middle ground enabling both soldier mobility and protection, of which there are many options on the table.  A lot of which have been implemented already.  Similar efforts were made when we were pushing squads on patrols up the Himalayas at 10-12k'.  Compromises can be made, like helmets and sideplates, etc.  Some compromises aren't worth the loss of added value they bring.

I will say that from a military standpoint I have fought in dense canopy and humidity before, and the absolute last thing I want it to take a catastrophic wound that requires getting me out within the golden hour. Ive seen it many times, and it bogs the unit down completely because everything is on foot, probably mined with nonstop water and vegetation obstacles, and extraction is either limited to jungle penetrator or physically moving to an open LZ, otherwise known as a danger area.

As a civilian in the zombie apocalypse with zero medical support my desire not to take a catastrophic wound while not wearing armor is substantially higher.  Ill probably still rely on a trim PC, minimal belt and pack over a belt recce rig.




That is literally how the Army already functions on its own.

What is interested to me is seeing a lot of the belt rigs that guys are using now, remind me in many ways of the modern LE belt rig. A hook & loop inner and outer belt, with a evenly distributed load. The thing though is because of a few different issues a lot of agencies are moving to an Outer Soft vest that matches the uniform and mounting the gear to it. A lot of LE blame back problems on the weight of the duty belt, but I think it has more to do with the bulky belt and a modern car seat not being compatible for good posture. Although a few companies offer a modified seat, the are an extra cost so not common.

A lot of competition shooters, because they don't wear armor, are also running the battle belt style setup. I shoot 2 Gun with armor and run a mix, two mags on the PC, and my pistol gear on a belt setup.

I pray that you do your job well (I don't doubt your intent), and also pray the Mil listens to you.  I have my doubts as to whether good advice will be heeded, and pray that I am wrong.

FWIW, I've lived in Newport, RI, home to the Naval War college, and met many higher-ranking Officers from all the service branches.  The most telling remarks were made by the Colonels and Navy Captains who were "passed-over".  Taking their personal stories with a grain of salt, most of those "passed-over" were the types who "rocked the boat", so to speak.  They had that much in common.

I wish you all the best in your career.  I think your head, and your heart are both in the right place.


 

that's kinda cool.
who makes such an anachronism?

Exactly. That last paragraph is one of the purposes of this forum and others like it: to educate and inform. Learn from others, modify their solutions, and present your own in the hopes that it helps someone else.

Your kind comments are appreciated.

I'm a little tired now, and in some minor pain.

Tomorrow is another day.

Well, if there is one thing I have learned in the military it's that everybody has a story why they failed X school or didnt make Y promotion. Some reasons are legit, most are bullshit.  If they are willing to casually tell you all about it as an outsider it usually falls into the second category.

You're right.  But I've learned, over the years, to discount such stories, and to learn a little bit about some people/officers through means of my own.  I know better than to think that all officers who fail to make General/Flag rank are fools.  

I am also certain that some officers who make General/Flag rank ARE fools.  Hell, I've met some of them.

Thanks.  It's a combination of BAE Eclipse (belt and mag pouches), Eagle Industries (canteen carriers), and Mayflower/Velocitys Systems (H harness and buttpack).  All pieces are Ranger Green in color.

Well circling back around to the OP, I think there are very good reasons for the civvy to consider kicking it old school with a belt kit set up.  But point well taken about the need for BA in the mix, depending on threat level and medical support.  Just as the .mil struggles with pro vs mobility, us slimy civilians should be thinking about that as well.

Here are the issues/considerations with belt kits.  First of all, with classic belt kits, it was normally about dis-mounted patrol.  In fact we just said patrolling, because it was understood you were just walking.  If we got a ride to work in the old days, it was usually a helo or boat for a quick insertion, and then several days on foot accomplishing a mission.  If that again becomes a SOP, then happy days; no more fiddle-fucking around with kit to fit your ride.  

BA.  As discussed, belt kit was the norm before real body armor became available/required.  With the advent of the "armor carrier" and molle, and everyone riding to work, aka mobility warfare, everybody started wearing all this shit on your torso.  And it is a good spot for comms, TQ's/bleeder kits, admin, etc.  The trick it would seem to me, is thinking about a way to combine the old with the new, and work some kind of PC/chest rig in with a modernized belt kit.  

Pistolas.  Almost a new norm, ala primary and secondary.  Again with a classic belt kit, pistols were usually not included.  The old hands considered extra mags, frags, n smokes more useful than a handgun.  And again in ye olden days, we spent the vast majority of our time "in the bush", and maybe a couple weeks a year doing "MOUT" training.  Obviously this has changed quite a bit.  Working a pistol into a belt kit is a pain in the ass.  It takes up a bunch of space usually reserved for mags, frags, smokes, not to mention messing with how much sustainment kit you can carry as well.  So if it is required, a solution is needed for this as well.

Rucksacks.  In the old days, you had Medium ALICE for regular troops, and you had Large ALICE for us knuckleheads doing long range patrols.  We literally lived out of our rucks, staying in the field for the vast majority of our time, patrolling on foot.  So traditionally a full sized ruck, or bergen was worn with belt kit.  A lot of the shit now worn on PC's was carried in the ruck, things like radios, water, etc.  So depending on whether you will have access to vehicles, or your re-supply schedule, a larger ruck may be required.  Working this in with a belt kit has been a legacy issue.

Your estimate of the situation.  Especially as a civvy, you have work through what scenarios you may face, and what that would require.  When you get down to LBE, what would be required to support the mission.  And this is another thread, but if you might see a need for various patrolling activities, then a belt kit might come into play.  But generally speaking we are talking about a pretty fucked up situation (and your estimate of how likely it is to occur) before belt kit and full Bergen are required.  Just defending hearth and home, in a (more likely?) short-term emergency scenario would usually not require this amount of kit.

The key to this issue, in a modern world, is how do we build a load-bearing system, that incorporates BA, fighting load out, and sustainment, with weight mostly on the hips, and perhaps ride in vehicles as well.  Do we scale up and down with the same system or build separate load outs for each mission?        

         

Diz, great post.
I think for those civvies and .mil guys who can swing it, multiple rigs would work best. For others with tighter budget or space constraints, a system that can be added to in the future is the way to go. I’ve got my full belt kit that would be used for probably 90% of the expected scenarios, and a chest panel and tac vest for the other 10% That’s why wargaming the most likely scenarios in your area and the probable response both by the local population and authorities is so important to do individually, rather than take a “cut-and-dry” plan from somewhere else.

I see a lot of interesting input there , expecially Daemon374 kits. I wouldn’t consider these kind of modern and widespread belt kits in the same field as “british” belt kits as these modern ones generally lack subsistence type items.
I think at the end the textbook answer to all this would be “Mission drives the Gear. There are advancements in materials, but basic principles are still valid” or something like along the line.
Is the whole belt kit thing obsolete because of the need to wear body armour? Maybe yes, on the other hand Brits are still fielding a plate carrier and a belt kit. You see armor carrier with a couple magazines, administrative pouch, radio pouch, IFAK. The rest is on the belt, be it the issue one or the older non modular aftermarket ones… is it the perfect solution? …maybe not, but it’s a solution. I think that “british style” belt kits are fading away because of vehicles, because we are no longer carrying sleeping and eating items in our webbing but in our packs (some of our webbing space has been taken by electronics and task specific items that can’t be left away)
I would have liked to carry belt kits, 99%of the time I couldn’t, for several reasons: you didn’t need subsistence gear, you used vehicles, you manned vehicular mounted weapons, you had large packs that you stashed away….these kind of things. Mostly chest rigs or split rigs worn low, like a harness for me. I didn’t use modern style belt kits because I didn’t need it.
This doesn’t mean that a british style webbing is unserviceable today. Soldiers dress and carry item that way because it’s what it’s practical and needed today. Maybe someday new doctrines or needs will call back for belt kits. As a civilian (I may not be familiar with US legislation and customs) you should be prepared for what you think it’s more likely to happen, maybe wearing a belt kit with survival and subsistence items may be a good idea.

This was what more or less what I wore at a recent Medical Reserve Training, a training event alongside paratroopers.  A belt kit under a plate carrier, british style. It was comfortable in the end. But it was tailored to that specific event.

It's definitely possible to wear a belt like that with a full armor carrier.  The reason most dont, like you stated, is it's almost impossible to sit down in a vehicle or helicopter even if you pop it open.  Theres just nowhere for that stuff to go.  Without armor you can pop it open and the sides can ride under your arms but with armor on it's just not happening.

If I know im spending 5 hours in an RG those belts I have arent going on, they may get stashed or not brought. With a helicopter I dont have that luxury, im coming off the bird with exactly what im wearing.  Chinook flights are pretty painful anyways while kitted up, belts and worn packs make them some of the worst experiences ive had with vehicle transit.  Sustainment gear has transitioned into packs because packs can be left at an ORP or strong point, as its incredibly hard to actually work and fight carrying armor plus your sustainment gear.  Even pre-armor days there wasnt much sustainment kit in the ALICE harness, it went into a pack or ruck which was dropped and cached at a common point.  Actions on contact prior to that were to drop your ruck where you stood.  You simply dont want to be fighting with all that extra stuff on.

Very valid points.
Off topic,I've never found ch47 rides that tragic (older c+ variant), while I remember getting sick twice inside rubber tracked bv206

Back on track I think that in the end the answer if a belt kit is still a comfortable and suitable solution is yes, provided it suits your needs. I'd say even under body armor if the need is to carry a modest subsistence load (1 day, maybe 2 or augmented with a pack) always on foot without the need or the possibility to drop it somewhere secure.

Again, seems like transferring weight to the hips is a thing, several belts that interface with plate carriers taking some weight off exist, I think British Virtus is the only one that's general issue.
I also wonder how better a rigid lbe harness like the mystery ranch one is to carry a load confronted with the ones I am accustomed to, but it's something I am not going to experiment as it looks like these were small custom runs.

Ive physically tried on the Mystery Ranch and the Crye rigid frame harnesses. I dont feel they really affected much, and they tied the PC and belt together so they couldnt be used separately without screwing around with separating them.  Im a big fan of being able to ditch stuff fast if I need to, if im on fire or drowning the last thing I want is anything making it harder to drop gear.  Those frames gave me the impression that task would be more complicated.

As far as the CH47, I admit im a bigger guy so the seat itself is tough while in kit, and about 90% of my experience in them involves 40-50 people jammed in around me plus equipment.

One of the other big issues with these belts is that you exclude your ability to carry a large ruck or bag, as you either cant use the waistbelt, have to wear it too high, or more often than not the bag will push down on the belt and drag it downwards, especially as you drop water and slim out over a long movement.  If im using anything other than a smaller assault pack that sits high on my back I have to keep the entire back of my belt clear for the ruck kidney pad to overlap over the back of the belt instead of sitting on top pushing it down.

That's the part I'm working on now.  When we used the ALICE stuff with IBA's during OSUT we made it work.  I've got to figure out the best ride height for my belt and may need to change up my mag pouches.  Going to either 2x2 or 2x3's and moving my canteens more forward might solve my problem.  The canteen caps are what keep hitting my ALICE frame.  I wish the canteen pouches rode a bit lower to get that even top "shelf" of the British stuff.  

I was in the same boat, rocking BDUs and an IBA in OSUT.  I gave up on this, since once you get everything set up for an ALICE pack you are then committed to it, because very few rucks have a similar height and offset profile.  I switch bags too much to be constantly playing that game.  If you have flush pouches you may have a "shelf" to sit a ruck on, but once everything starts shifting around a few hours in that tends to change. Plus lower sitting pouches to make them flush at the top just mean they are in an even worse position to get in a vehicle with or even sit down in general.  

In fact, its such a PITA to wear a loaded belt and ruck at the same time I rocked a ruck with an improvised molle belt for a while.  It worked pretty good for 2-3 months of a combat trip but in the end my other rucks just overall did better for me.

I'm army infantry and have a jayjay's webbing kit and yoke that i will use for long dismounted ops.  I got turned on to this stuff fighting alongside the scots in Iraq.  Kind of surprised to see their stuff mentioned, I didn't think brit style kit had much of a following in the states.  it definitely doesn't in the military outside of sniper and scout unit types who need to carry a lot of shit a long way and get low to the ground with kit on to clear IV lines.

I'm pretty nerd level into brit kit too... I even have a brew kit and basha

For those of you using a PLCE or similar belt kit:

-How tight do you wear the belt? Do your hips or your shoulders take the weight?
-What is your setup for wearing under (or over) a PC or other armor?
-How have you worked out rucksack carriage? (I prefer rucks that are longer and shift weight to a hip belt so that seems to limit my setup to a "naked" back)

-Weight is on the hips, because belt is heavy padded (either a thing called hippo pad on the belt or pouches sewn directly to a large pad) and buckles are either a roll pin or a cobra than can be tightened and loosened quickly from one end

-Under armor yokes exist, they are thin mesh shoulder straps or shaped like a tactical vest without pouches, mostly worn under armour, but sometimes even over. Brits as of today seem to have 1 or 2 quick access magazines, admin pouch and intrateam radio on front armor, ifak on the side, the rest on the belt.

this video shows more or less how armor is loaded with a belt kit


-problem with packs is the fact that british packs are designed short and without waist belts (even the 600$ Jayjays jungle bergen or the 150liters Air Support Bergen) so they can rest over the back pouches which are usually loaded with sold objects like mess tin or canteens. This is like a pedestrian version of the short lived Ball-and-socket Molle 1 vest but it does its job of shifting weight.
Waist belt has always been a controversial subject as many in the military won't or can't fasten it because of quick ditch capability, but in the end a well fastened waist belt does wonders...problem is a civilian high end hiking pack rarely fulfills military needs.
this is army issue patrol pack


this is a camelbak i think

these are pathfinders with larger bergens (air support model too) resting over belt kit. Also ifak on the armor

I have that same harness set in multicam

My Jayjays webbing sits on my hips and if I am wearing issued armor it goes over the yoke. For sustained mission I’ll usually use an assault pack without a waist belt and it sits above the rear pouches.  For the webbing you are putting more of the weight on the belt for water, food, maybe a poncho etc so that takes the weight out of your pack. I have a first spear jungle pack that is designed to sit a little higher that works well with this kit.

If I have to use the issued ruck then I probably wouldn’t use this belt kit and would use a FLC or chest rig instead.  The thing about the army is if they are mandating a ruck specifically it’s for a ruck march where gear doesn’t matter because you’re just walking around with a ruck to walk around with a ruck.  Most other scenarios ie actual combat patrols I would choose an assault pack.  Even 4 day sniper OP ops in Iraq it would be an assault pack.

Promotion rates to GOFO are 2-3%, and the number of O-6s who believe they should have been promoted is MUCH higher than that. FWIW - the folk sent to instruct at most of the war colleges aren't the ones on track to make GOFO.

I only have 8 years in at this point but my experience, to include working for GOs, is that rocking the boat is perfectly fine as long as you provide REASONED dissent, with facts and data to back your argument.

On wearing PLCE style rigs, aka belt kit.  The Brits would use a "roll pin buckle" or an adjustable buckle on their belts, which was usually cinched up tight on the hips.  So when the ruck sat on top of it, some weight would transfer to the hips.  This is normally done with a "short back" ruck, meaning it was designed to sit on top of belt kit, not cinch around your waist.  This does work, to varying degrees, depending on load out.  For myself, after about 35 lbs, I find a I prefer a "long back" ruck, with a full padded waist belt.    

As previously noted, the pouches must be flush for best results; no canteen caps sticking up.  The classic Brit bergens were internal frame and so the bag would sit directly on the rear pouches.  With an external frame it is even more important to have flush-mounted pouches, because the canteen caps and frame create two hard points of interference.  But if done correctly this technique will work even better because the hard frame will concentrate more ruck weight on the pouches.

Also as noted, there is a penalty for flush-mounting pouches.  They now hang below the waist, which creates other problems.  They tend to flop or hop when running, so you either need a hippo belt to secure them, or bungee them together.  

To the OP, I would say that these rigs were worn in a day when we pretty much walked everywhere.  They are really optimized for that.  So if you are patrolling on foot, from your home or base, with no vehicles involved, they work really well.  Especially if you keep the ruck weight below say 35 lbs, or a 3-day pack.  With caveat being if you're not armed with a long gun, then there's really no reason to be wearing it; you're better off with a pack, with a waist belt if it's getting heavy.  And, depending on situation, the long gun could be broken down and carried in the pack, with mags in a bandoleer or micro chest rig.  To be overtly carrying with a full belt kit means the world basically went to shit, and you are trying to interdict hostiles at the farthest distance from your home as possible.  Real Mad Max shit.  Not saying it couldn't happen, but there would be a lot of ground to be covered first, where concealed, EDC would probably be a better idea.  

And a lot is going to depend on you and your sit.  You have to decide when and where BA is gonna be in the mix.  So now do you wear it slick, or with a load.  Will you be running a pistol, a rifle, or a rifle and a pistol.  Are you mostly urban, rural, or some mix.  Low pro or in your face.  With vehicles or not.  These are the things that will determine whether a classic belt kit would work for you, or not.  

The optimum sit for it, IMHO, would be rural, foot patrols of at least 24 hr duration.  You might be doing "health and welfare" checks on your neighbors, as a supplement and/or in conjunction with local LE.  Or perhaps working out of a remote patrol base, where you drop rucks and live out of your belt kit all day.  Whatever the case, on foot, out in the boonies.  Where the threat level is such that you are armed with a long gun.              

@sparky-kb
Where did you find those components?

What is your opinion concerning the BAE/Eclipse pouches?

I think I've got the ride height sorted out.  Ideally the canteen caps wouldn't be sticking up right where they are.  The pack isn't hitting them but it's close. The sleep system pouch hits the buttpack before the frame hits the canteens for the most part. Something to address in the future maybe.  

Please forgive my awesome bathroom mirror selfies.  This is a LARPing thread right?  







Ebay for the BAE and Eagle, Nelson & Co for the Mayflower stuff.




Jury is still out but after a bit of messing around with them they seem pretty solid.  I did re-tie the shock cord as I found the knots to be too loose for my liking, easy fix.  Takes a little getting used the "speed toggle" but I like them better than tiny fastex buckles I think.  They have the option to use Velcro in conjunction with the toggle but it came covered up and that's how I've left them.  They also have thick elastic bands around each 2 mag cell.

The toggle is quick to open but takes some practice to close.  Also, you only want the shock cord around the toggle with the tab just kind of loose on the cord up above.  If you try to set the tab at the 6 o'clock on the toggle they can open up very easily since the tab keeps the cord from wrapping tight around the toggle.  Looping only the shock cord around it is secure.  Just grab the tab and pull down and away to open them up.

Concur with your "tab" placement.  Also, the knot securing the bungee cord has to be tucked up/inside the flap, lest the knot interfere with the toggle.  If one doesn't want to toggle pouch closed, then leave a small strip of Velcro exposed, so that it engages, and secures the flap.  An empty or partially loaded mag will be much less likely exit the pouch, even with limited Velcro engagement, than would a fully-loaded mag.

So far, I've found their gear to be quite satisfactory.  The almost give-away price is a bonus.

Disclaimer: no financial interest.

i think the alice pack frame is a bit long, this is a matching day pack for a british belt kit. It is aftermarket, and it’s based off enhancement made by soldier to issue patrol packs mixed with other aftermarket packs which were used since the 80’s.
Hastily filled with cushions.
You see no belt, wide bit thin padded shoulder pads and it’s a campact pack, back panel height is around 16 inches.

It has a main compartment, 3 external pouches not unlike the alice pack (some soldier would sew plce utility pouches outside their packs, not a fan of this design as the can’t be cinched down), a nice zippered external poncho/basha  pouch and the lid is very large (heritage from early berghaus munro daysacks which are and were popular, as weird as it sounds vendors still sell conversion lids for 3 day like packs with clamshell zipper opening)

These side mesh pockets are a godsend, you can stash wet items, brick radios or hydration. These again were early rigger modifications to packs that became commercial.

Neat, but it kind of represents everything we've gotten away from.  Zero frame support, thin shoulder straps with very little ability to adjust, and no load lifters.  Its probably good for a sleeping bag, a couple mags and some water, but once you start throwing anything of substance in there I would imagine it becoming very painful very fast.

@joeviterbo and @Diz Thank you both for the highlighted parts...I think that may solve a huge problem I have been having with both battle belts and kit belts like we're discussing here! I've been using standard 2" side release duty type belts and have been super frustrated with the slow/difficult adjustments to the point where I have stopped using that kits. I just threw a Boxer Tactical cobra buckle belt in my battle belt and it's a huge improvement.

I've had my eye on the MC version and just haven't pulled the trigger yet. I already have a lot invested in good M81 and ranger green gear that works well here in Michigan, but I have started down the MC road so it's probably just a  matter of time

How do you have it set up?

That is for sure, but give credit to the fact that it's a reasonable pack for what you mentioned, which may fit someone needs. Heavier loads need a frame. As a daysack it WAS well ahead of carrying a frameless medium Alice and it was on par with the molle patrol packs or aftermarket camelbaks, only sized to fit British needs. Sure it's not mystery ranch or our later Ferrino patrol packs....
I think that for this thread needs (shtf, hiking, larping) simple packs like this can be still viable. I was taught that proportionality is a good thing

I have a ITW(?) plastic cobra buckle for daily-wear belt.  Over the day, I find myself needing to "tug" at the loose end, to tighten things up again.  It's been going on for a long time, and a minor annoyance.  The plastic Cobra buckle is light, cheap, and low-profile.  Won't take any appreciable load, like a proper metal buckle, though.  that's not an issue for me, YMMV.

Reading this thread makes me wonder if taking a small file to the innards of my cobra buckle, as well as some other QD buckles might not be useful.  Kind of filing some "teeth" into the buckles, and allowing them to grip better.  Easy does it, of course.

That's basically how I see it.  I can make it work with a ruck for longer durations but I think it would be ideally suited for 24-48 hours in rural terrain with or without something like a Yote or other small to medium sized hydro/assault pack depending on needs.  

Could work with a slick plate carrier added also.  
Another thought I've had is that having some empty BFG ten speed pouches on the PC would let you drop the belt and stick some mags and medical stuff in there for vehicle or urban ops as needed.  

Might work into a "bug out" plan pretty well too.  A grab and go fighting load+ with 24 hours sustainment if packing smart.

In theory it would work well for Infantrymen in certain conditions but all the extra gear and armor required by command end up being more parts and pieces to fight in order for them to work together.

No single approach will be adequate for all users, under all circumstances. The best that one can do is to provide intelligent, informed opinions, and hope that the suggestions might meet the needs of some users, at some point in time, under certain circumstances.

It is up to the reader to determine if such gear, or practices, are suitable for them.  Caveat Emptor.  "Let the buyer beware".

To say, categorically, that one piece/type of equipment, or a particular item of equipment is UnSat for all users, under all circumstances, goes too far, I think.

Saying so ignores the unique situations/requirements of the User.  Even so, the specific requirements of the User may vary due to circumstances.  What practice/item of gear is worthwhile in one set of circumstances might be impractical/undesirable under different circumstances.

This forum is in great part, about the sharing of ideas.  The more sharing, the better, but the Reader must do their due diligence in interpreting what they read.  Conversely, it is incumbent on the Writer tell the truth as far as they can see it, and not go past their personal experiences.  Sometimes, more experienced users will chime in, and suggest that the gear/practices suggested by a particular Writer are somehow unsafe, or impractical.  Fortunately, this does not happen often.  That's the value of almost instant feedback.

That's the way we learn.

But, beware of group-think" of what the "Hive-Mind" says.  One size may not fit all, under all circumstances.  

Submitted for your consideration.

Yeah one of the big differences between USGI and Brit kit was the patrol belt buckle.  Ours was fixed, more or less, with different buckles; theirs was adjustable.  You saw many permutations of our belts that guys adjusted way low or high, to get around a ruck waist belt.  In a lot of cases these belts were simply adjusted loose, hanging on the shoulder straps, so they moved up and down with you.  That is A way of doing things.  On long patrols in hot weather, having the looser belt is a plus, especially if you are changing positions (kneeling, proning out) a lot.    

In the Brit system an adjustable buckle allows you to cinch the patrol belt in tight and work in conjunction with the rucksack.  This works well with a short back ruck, especially if you "airborne" rig it, by tying/taping the waist belt back behind the lumbar pad (modern day rucks have removable side pads/waist straps to make this easier).

Having used both, I would say the Brit technique is superior for the ruck in/out, and the US one works better for all day patrol in just belt kit.  So having an adjustable buckle gives you both options.

I have never used the BAE Eclipse mag pouches, but only examined them at shows.  I like the innovative design, which gets rids of the SR buckle hardware in lieu of the toggle closure.  Nice touch; I think the toggle design is highly under-rated.  Millions of chinese can't be wrong, eh?  

One thing that continues to aggravate me is the lack of fully enclosed canteen/sustainment pouches with flush mount.  V/M is the only vendor over here that does this.   Their jungle kit is very innovative if not expensive.  But for the full-time professional, totally worth it.  These will get those pesky canteen caps down flush for a good ruck shelf.  

If you truly want the best of the PLCE stuff, check out jayjaysbrecon.co.uk.  Or dixiescorner.co.uk.  Good used surplus at kitmonster.co.uk.

There are some mfrs of belt buckles, mostly civvy stuff, who have different, possibly more advanced buckles that are installed on legacy GI gear.  ITW, and some others have made some advancements in buckle design, although the Mil, as usual, is a bit behind the curve, so to speak.

ITW/Fastex has moved on to a newer design of all their buckles, which is better able to maintain adjustment on nylon webbing.  Some mfrs will incorporate such buckles, and likely the Mil will be last.  Believe it is the "WAVE" buckle, but could be wrong.

The BAE/Eclipse items, AFAIK, are Berry-compliant.   NO Chinesium.

No disrespect.

Diz I understand where you are coming from with what is available is US vs what is sold in the UK or Australia.

I think what happened is the "tactical gear" industry here morphed over the last 20 years into a boutique business serving professional soldiers into an industry that probably sells more equipment to airsofters, paintballers, and people who just like to shoot and wear this type of stuff.  Not saying there is anything wrong with doing those activities, but the tail has wagged the dog a bit.  An example is when you look at a manufacturer's kit and they sell a "minimalist" plate carrier that would never fit a 11Bs or 0311s basic load, open top mag pouches with no retention, do not even bother offering frag pouches or linked ammo pouches etc then you know the customer they are going for is not a line soldier.  Some of the manufacturers sell ridiculous priced kit like $900 jackets... who is buying this stuff even??  

Bespoke kit has never caught on culturally in the US military and I don't know why.  Maybe the uniform standard douche senior NCO cadre who it offends is part of it.  I have always encouraged my guys to use gear as long as it is better quality than issue, not ridiculous, and if they can justify a particular setup with sound tactical reasoning.  Serving alongside our overseas counterparts I got the impression that they were encouraged to setup their own kit witin reason, and also the gear companies over there actually cater to them and what the RMC and paras are asking for rather than what they think they can sell to a thousand guys doing "classes" at the local range.  The guys like jayjay's, british tactical, platatac etc are pretty much all staffed by former service members and i'm sure the vast majority of their customer base is active.

Also I just looked at velosyst website and they are no longer showing the jungle kit on their site... go figure they probably discontinued after realizing nobody is lining up to buy a $600 rig

Ha I was referring to the millions of chi-com chest rigs with I guess you could call legacy toggle closures.  I used to laugh at this, but now, I go hmmm.

And yeah there is a huge domestic market for all the civvys doing whatever is their thing.  If I had any business sense I would have catered to them and been retired by now.  Too right, the Brits are much more switched on to actual soldiering use.  Which is why they are small custom shops.  



Here is probably the best custom kit maker in the UK.    

Speaking of mag pouches, we haven't even talked about 2-vs-3-mag pouches yet.  

I spent the vast majority of my time with USGI 3-mag pouches.  Arkansas Industries for the Blind, me favorite vendor.  I would shoot, run out of ammo, take a knee, reload another mag, continue.  Didn't give it much more thought than that.  I am currently running 2-mag pouches, laid flat, bullets to rear, for "beercan" grip.  Returning to 3-mag, bullets "out" with index grip, dunno.

Then there's "flat" top flap, vs full closure top flap.  I am currently experimenting with both.  Both have their peculiar charms.

Your thoughts gentlemen.

@Diz

On the previous page, is that the UKOM PLCE kit? I've been eyeballing that on fleabay. ETA: Just re-read the post; it's a Jay Jay's kit. Looks similar, though.

Looks like it would work well for long hikes here in the desert, keeping material off the chest and back. I've worn my Brit P58 kit, which works great except for the bottoms of the mag pouches rubbing the op of my thighs raw. German Flecktarn LBE also works well, but I'd like a little more storage space.

Nah mate that's a mish-mash of my stuff with Genuine Jay Jay's kit (jayjaysbrecon.co.uk).  I love their hippo belt, and their yoke.  Some of the best kit out there.  Kit Monster (kitmonster.co.uk) has some of their older, used kit.  Even further back is me boss, with Jay Jays belt and yoke with V/M mag pouches (modified), and JJ's sustainments (also modified).  

Yeah for hot, dry ops, same deal as hot, wet, I suppose.  Only not so worried about water retention, at least in your webbing!

PLEASE don't re-start the "Flapped vs. Open-topped" mag pouch debate.  Been done to death.

Here is what I cobbled together for my larping adventures.  My days in the army are long gone.  I left when we were still issued LBV 88's and DCUs.  Molle was the new girl in town and us lowly engineers were not high speed enough for it.

The four PLCE sustainment pouches hold water bottles, food and snivel gear.  Because of the proprietary Brit attachment system, I have them attached to the original belt.  I then added Eagle SAW/Mag pouches, a BFG Trauma kit now, and a USMC IFAK (used as a GP pouch).  I have an old padded belt that I used as a base. I switched out the old fastex buckle for a Molle waist strap buckle.  Not great, but an improvement.  I placed the Brit belt on top of the Molle belt, then weaved the molle pouches through the belt with the Brit belt sandwiched in between.  In the rear wear its just the PLCE pouches, I added some malice clips to secure the two belts together.  I like the Eagle mag pouches because they can hold AR or FAL mags.  Also with the dividers in them, You can section mags off and carry smokes or other sundries in them.  I have an LBX Titan pack which sits on top of the sustainment pouches.  With that pack, plus what can be carried in the belt, I could easily be set for a week. Albeit nowadays the pack would contain more food, water, and comfort items, less bullets and demo gear.

Closed/flapped pouches.  Be warned that such are UnSat to many people here.  Just sayin'

I do have a G-Code Scorpion attached to the side of one of the mag pouches for a quick reload.  Hopefully that will appease the herd.  I'll be honest, I never had to do quick reloads from a mag pouch in a firefight.  But I was carrying a SAW instead of an M4, so that might have been the reason.

I'm sure my personal experiences differ with yours, but I also have a single open-topped mag pouch for quick access.  That said, my other mag pouches have flapped-tops, for reasons important to me, and explained previously.

"Best you stay shy of me"--Conagher.

I just went to their site and it was still there.  It's under the chest rig subcategory.

This is turning out to be a more productive thread than I first thought. Must have spent too much time in GD lately
Anyhow, I always preferred to wear my belt loose, but that does make the rig flop more. It looks like I will definitely be trying to get some used DPM PLCE cheap for my next LBE experiment and maybe a roll pin belt also. Being able to ruck 6 miles with a 35lb pack has become a new priority since joining the Battle Buddies, and while I’m able to carry 40lb of LBE and rifle on a day hike up and down hills, putting that weight in a ruck is very different.

Oh, and LARPing selfies are encouraged FYI I’m just to lazy to attempt pics.

Not really though. Every size and variation populates with SOLD OUT and every jungle belt pouch and accessory is removed from their store.