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Posted: 11/2/2011 5:25:59 AM EDT
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After running a plate carrier and various types of body armor, I was curious to see if anyone had also come to any conclusion on the weight vs. the advantages of body armor.
Anyone who has shot in a plate carrier or Interceptor for a day knows that 12-20 lbs of armor definitely wears on you, makes you warm, and can limit your mobility depending on the coverage (also known as "feeling like a turtle"). I have thought a lot about what else you could carry with the 12-20 lbs of armor, and just like the argument of 3-4 mags vs. 12+, what is really most important? Is it better just to have a 4 lb level 2 vest with good torso coverage, a 12 lb plate carrier to protect your vitals from rifle shots, both combined which starts to get bulky, or plates + full level III vest which really starts to get bulky and heavy? Even with the maximum protection, over 50% of your body is exposed and you can still take a crippling hit. Anyhow, just wanted to hear if anyone else had really thought about this and what their conclusions are. |
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As with everything else, I think it really comes down to your mission and what you're trying to accomplish. Where you're going to be working, what kind of threat your expecting, etc...
If I'm hiking the hills of Afghanistan, I like to be mobile. So I'd take a plate carrier. If I'm going to be static where I'm likely to draw fire, sitting in a gun turret or working an ECP, I'd probably accept the extra coverage. With that in mind though, I don't want the full course, especially DAP's. If I to go one way or the other, I'd probably prefer mobility, so a PC. Armor is nice, but if I can't move what's the point. |
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front back and side plates ive had friends get shot and it saved em, ive been shot at, youll want every bit of ceramic you can get, cant move if you take a slug to the chest its all about balance One could also make the argument that lack of mobility can get you shot, when you otherwise might not have been. It's true that you never know what a situation might bring but a super-light torso plate (and sides) can let you move quickly while still being able to take a rifle round. In my opinion, current Level III certification puts too much of a restriction on the plates and causes them to be unwieldy and heavy, in order to be compliant. |
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Mission dependent and you have to consider the two vastly different "armoring" strategies employed by US forces.
Iraq: head to toe armor designed to protect against IED strikes. Some of our guys wore full coverage vests and up to 8 (eight) SAPIs (front, back, sides, thighs, shoulders). It was also dependent upon mounted versus dismounted missions. Even dismounted, most of our spare ammo and water was in the trucks, so they were our lifeline. . Also note that while parts of Iraq are hot, it is predominantly low and flat. When the full-body armor strategy proved unworkable in Afghanistan where it was not only hot, but high and mountainous the Army slowly reconsidered the full strategy. Remember too that by this time the civilian world was beginning to ask questions (and congressional investigations) about why there weren't more armored vehicles and better body armor. At one point the Army had taken individual measurements of an entire unit (I forget the unit but believe it was 10th Mountain; 2005 time frame nonthelesss) and purchased on a by-name bases an entire new set of light gear (plates, COTS boots, etc.). That equipment sat in the warehouse because someone somewhere questioned reducing the amount of body coverage by one square inch and the impact that might have on survivability. In other words, the Army itself had decided to include mobility as a factor in overall survivability and yet some paper pusher as opposed to mountain fighter questioned that move. Eventually the plate carrier was accepted on a large scale in Afghanistan although you still see mostly IOTVs. |
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As an aside, I have had several friends deployed, and the comments above reflect that - two friends were deployed in the Army to Iraq and both wore interceptors with sapis, side sapis, groin guards, DAPs, and helmets. They said the weight and heat was a killer, and the DAPs (also known as "samurai guards") in particular were despised.
My Marine freind who deployed to Afghanistan was originally issued an inerceptor, but they were operating at long distances in mountainous terrain on foot, and their command deicded they only had to wear plate carriers and helmets. My friend said it was a lifesaver, and he would rather have only plates and additional mobility than be bogged down carrying armor when they were patrolling on foot for 24-36 hours at a time. He said the saved weight saved his back and let him carry additional ammo, water, and other useful gear. |
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I tried the heavier stuff and couldn't agree more with you. It's why I went with a non-certified plate that has zero maintenance and weighs almost nothing (about 3.5 pounds) but will stop at least three hits of .308. Oh, and it floats. 
Which plate is that? I know TAP gamma standalones are 5 lbs, but I am guessing those are HDPE plates that will not stop M855? |
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I tried the heavier stuff and couldn't agree more with you. It's why I went with a non-certified plate that has zero maintenance and weighs almost nothing (about 3.5 pounds) but will stop at least three hits of .308. Oh, and it floats.
Which plate is that? I know TAP gamma standalones are 5 lbs, but I am guessing those are HDPE plates that will not stop M855? The Midwest stand-alones. I don't think any plate in the world at 3.5 lbs will stop M855. |
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I tried the heavier stuff and couldn't agree more with you. It's why I went with a non-certified plate that has zero maintenance and weighs almost nothing (about 3.5 pounds) but will stop at least three hits of .308. Oh, and it floats.
What kind of plates? |
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I tried the heavier stuff and couldn't agree more with you. It's why I went with a non-certified plate that has zero maintenance and weighs almost nothing (about 3.5 pounds) but will stop at least three hits of .308. Oh, and it floats.
What kind of plates? See above.
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Well, for me, ounces count. My back is so FVBAR, the loaded vest felt like it was crushing discs in my lower spine. Sold my ESAPIs, got some Gamma Plus III+ STandalones in a Mayflower APC, went down to 3+1 rifle mags, smaller water bladder, simple BOK, now it feels like almost nothing. I can't imagine being one of these brave men and women wearing the turtle suit, plus weapon, helmet, combat load, ruck, chasing some Haji in Nikes carrying just an AK and 2 mags in his pocket, way up at 10,000ft......... |
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If I'm mobile I can use my environment as additional armor by more easily getting into cover.
Personally, if given the choice in Afghanistan I wouldn't be wearing any armor at all if in the mountains, and a PC with front and rear plates when in towns. I'd probably take the armored turtle approach if I was in Iraq. Here in the States I'll wear my PC as well. |
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Quoted: Are you telling me that nobody wants to wear this?! http://www.ar15.com/media/viewFile.html?i=840  Frick no, man! I know a former Grunt whom, at 24, has a back almost as bad as mine from wearing that damn turtle suit. Speed and Mobility have an advantage of their own. Shoulder your rifle faster or draw smoother, not having to work around the ESBIs or Auxillary Armor, can make all the difference when confronting a subject who already has a handgun or knife already drawn. The 21ft knife rule may very well be closer to 27 or 30ft while in the turtle suit. Wearing that IOTV must be like trying to walk around all day in the full Red Man Suit......the freakin' Michelin Man....... The fact that so many of you have been doing the job so well the past decade give me all the more respect for this generation of Warriors.... I thought having to wear the old PASGT Vest and Fritz helmet all the time, on road marches, crewing the mortar, etc was clumsy. Total that junk may weigh only 15lbs or so, about half of the average turtle suit. Like I said, I'm enjoying the heck out of the Gamma Plus III+s in the APC........ |
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The operator's fitness and conditioning comes into play. Someone who regularly exercises with or uses their armor will have less of an impact on their mobility while wearing it. It doesn't matter how fit you are, extra weight will limit you, though it might have less of an impact compared to unfit people. Not disagreeing with you, just saying that this argument doesn't negate the issue. |
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The operator's fitness and conditioning comes into play. Someone who regularly exercises with or uses their armor will have less of an impact on their mobility while wearing it. It doesn't matter how fit you are, extra weight will limit you, though it might have less of an impact compared to unfit people. Not disagreeing with you, just saying that this argument doesn't negate the issue. You're right it doesn't negate the issue. It's simply the best way to mitigate it if you find yourself needing the weight (armor/gear). |
| You have to get in your armor, move things (pouches) around, set it up so it feels good, but is still effective. I dont like the pouches that hold magazines perpendicular to the vest, because it makes it impossible to go prone, which you are more likely to do when the rounds start flying. I wear my armor every day here in Afghanistan. Level IIIA soft/IV plates. It's heavy, but I have it how I like it, and now I run it with no problems. |
| Keep in mind that side plates don't protect much of your vitals. While they can help prevent some kidney shots, and some of your intestines, they don't protect any of your vitals in your chest (heart, lungs, liver, etc. They sit way too low. You would need a plate that sat under your armpit to protect properly, but unfortunately, they are much too thick at this time and would impede movement if placed there. |
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My buddy who is an Iraq vet said he wished he could have done missions with no armor at all. He absolutely hated it. Said he felt like he could run only 1/3rd of his normal speed with it on and that he felt far less combat effective with it. He also never got shot so I dunno if that would have changed his opinion at all. Personally, as someone who has never worn armor, I would want it. But I would probably want a lighter mobile version than the full thing. My experience is worth basically nothing and this post is basically just a tag. |
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For those of you that wear body armor, hard and soft.
What changes, if any, have you made to your armor to gain more mobility? For instance, did you go from large SAPI to a medium or small SAPI plate? Or go to a lower rated armor for lighter weight and thinner profile/bulk? |
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For those of you that wear body armor, hard and soft. What changes, if any, have you made to your armor to gain more mobility? For instance, did you go from large SAPI to a medium or small SAPI plate? Or go to a lower rated armor for lighter weight and thinner profile/bulk? I load myself down with weight in training, so that in real world use I can cut my gear down and operate even faster. In my opinion training gear should be 1.5x the weight of the normal combat load. Or more. |
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For those of you that wear body armor, hard and soft. What changes, if any, have you made to your armor to gain more mobility? For instance, did you go from large SAPI to a medium or small SAPI plate? Or go to a lower rated armor for lighter weight and thinner profile/bulk? I load myself down with weight in training, so that in real world use I can cut my gear down and operate even faster. In my opinion training gear should be 1.5x the weight of the normal combat load. Or more. I like this approach. How would you recommend weighing yourself down appropriately to, as an example, run around and workout with the appropriate weight on without looking like you're gonna blow shit up? I'm not military and I want to at least go running in gear to get used to it, but somehow I don't think donning a plate carrier full of mags to jog around town is a good idea. |
| They make weighted vests for regular old folks that exercise. I wear a 20 lb. vest when working out usually. It doesn't really get to me, so sometimes I put another one on. Once you're over 30 lbs of weighting, you can start to feel a serious effect on your mobility. |
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Just be careful and don't injure yourself. Don't run with too much weight, speed walk. Running with too much weight is incredibly bad for your knees/ankles.
I like Osha's suggestion. Those weighted vests can be pretty handy. I like to over-load a backpack with ballistic plates, water, dumbells. Start small. If your body isn't conditioned to training with weight and you don't take care of yourself (stretching and hydration) there's the potential for hurting yourself. I just did a little ruck march last night and my lower back is killing me. |
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Just be careful and don't injure yourself. Don't run with too much weight, speed walk. Running with too much weight is incredibly bad for your knees/ankles. I like Osha's suggestion. Those weighted vests can be pretty handy. I like to over-load a backpack with ballistic plates, water, dumbells. Start small. If your body isn't conditioned to training with weight and you don't take care of yourself (stretching and hydration) there's the potential for hurting yourself. I just did a little ruck march last night and my lower back is killing me. This. We do some training with kit with all 4 plates, helmet, mags in pouches and a pack with extra water bladders for weight. The water moves around and is hell on keeping your balance. Helps you build up stabilizer muscles as well as cardio and strength. You learn better balance and agility. But beware of ankles knees and hips. Plus, if you have too much weight........ Empty out some water. Works well for hikes and movemnt to contact and MOUT. When we do those, makes you want to give up on life |
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1st post gets it right. I'm a big fan of plate carriers with plate backers and side plates (seems to be the best compromise in my book), but that's with AFG in mind since I'm going to miss out on Iraq You aren't missing much. Served in both $h!tholes amd I love AFG compared to IRQ. At least the Afghans have the balls to fight after they blow you up. The Iraqi's always ran except for extreme circumstances or in Samara. Sorry - I'm getting off topic. I always prefer mobility over armor. Always - speed = safety. From my first tour to my last i have downsized from Large SAPI to small ESAPI. Most of the guys in my unit think I'm nuts but I still only get 5% off on my taxes unlike their 20%. (of course maybe that's why they think I'm nuts.) I also have removed kevlar from items like my DAPS, Collar, cock flap when forced to wear them to continue to "follow" the rules. SOS |
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Cool,thanks for the ideas - not sure why I didn't think of it, but I could just throw all my gear in a backpack and strap it on. There's the weight. I could throw in some extra mags to add weight for the sake of training heavy, and I would definitely start small and work up to it - not a fan of soft tissue damage. Been there, done that, paid the medical bills.
As much as I love playing with armor and making a half-assed collection of it, after playing dressup enough times I've come to the arrangement of PC with front/back/side plates (on me, the side plates ride in my armpit and stop right at the end of my short ribs), and a BLAST belt. The Kevlar helps support shit on the belt, and doesn't add any noticeable weight since it's all riding on the hips already. I've tried, and ditched, every style of groin and upper arm protection out there, as well as thigh Kevlar - it all sucks, hard. |
| The only problem with just throwing everything in a bag as a solution for weight is that it does not distribute/balance the same way a vest with plates and armor would. If you get used to doing stuff with everything weighing you backwards, wearing the front/back distribution of weight will throw you off the first (and perhaps most important) time. |
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What's your mission and threat?
If you're going to be kicking in doors and you're main threat is direct fire from AKs, wear just plates rated to stop those. If your main threat is fragmentation, then soft armor. The guys who are wearing just the plates have a good idea of what they are going to be facing and accept the reduced protection for more mobility. Nothing they expect to face will be stopped by soft armor so it's worthless. Those lightweight non rated, most likely HDPE plates that some like are crap in extremely hot places if you ever leave them in a vehicle and the temps get too high. It weakens them to the point that you're carrying around 3 pounds of junk thinking you're protected. They also don't do shit to stop a steel cored round. It's funny. The level 3 HDPE plates will stop the light fast 55gr 5.56 that punch through steel, but not the M855 that is stopped by the same 6mm steel. |
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Armor sucks when you are just starting out using it or don't wear it consistantly (every day) but you really do get used to it. No matter what, nothing limits your mobility in combat more than a 7.62 round to your chest without armor on. All of that extra crap that they give you to go on your vest, it feels completely like crap at first but eventually it all settles in well and kinda "moulds" to you. BUT, you gotta wear it in for it to do so, and wear it a lot.
My philosophy is that mission dictates. Train to be ready for your heaviest load out plus. Train often and train hard. Soon it will be just like putting on a jacket and won't bother you hardly at all. If you think it slows you down too much then get stronger. Endurance is everything in combat. |
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What's your mission and threat? If you're going to be kicking in doors and you're main threat is direct fire from AKs, wear just plates rated to stop those. If your main threat is fragmentation, then soft armor. The guys who are wearing just the plates have a good idea of what they are going to be facing and accept the reduced protection for more mobility. Nothing they expect to face will be stopped by soft armor so it's worthless. Those lightweight non rated, most likely HDPE plates that some like are crap in extremely hot places if you ever leave them in a vehicle and the temps get too high. It weakens them to the point that you're carrying around 3 pounds of junk thinking you're protected. They also don't do shit to stop a steel cored round. It's funny. The level 3 HDPE plates will stop the light fast 55gr 5.56 that punch through steel, but not the M855 that is stopped by the same 6mm steel. My "mission" and "threat" are nonexistant. I'm a nerdy, artsy suburbanite that believes in exercising the 2nd amendment, and as a corollary I believe that having a gun without having armor is as foolish as having a bike without a helmet. So any gear planning is purely hypothetical on my part, and I'm just trying to get stuff that works well for me and get familiar enough with it that should I somehow need it one day, I won't be a fish out of water. The theme behind my armor thus far has been pretty minimalistic, outside of playing with different pieces of accessory protection like groin and deltoid plates. I try to have as little nylon as possible relative to the amount of ballistic coverage. To that end, I just ordered a PIG Brigandine carrier to try out, I'm hoping that will be an all-time new level of slim and low-profile for holding my plates. I figure by going with a minimalist approach, I'm easing out the learning curve considering my complete lack of professional training or experience. |
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