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Armor Plates (Page 10 of 12)
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Originally Posted By sleepdr: Verticalgain, I'm not an idiot and know the difference between armor steel and dumpster steel. I also know enough to research and even read multiple posts here and elsewhere demonstrating lightweight M193 vs steel armor. Read a few posts above yours and you'll see someone else alluding to the same thing. This isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon. Google it. Your erroneous information masquerading as fact could get someone killed. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile ETA: Armored Mobility plates - specifically stated which rounds defeat which plates here: http://www.strykertactical.com/amiarmorpg1.htm According to that link, the 3rd plate listed (TAC3S) will stop all threats including M193 and M855. |
Keith-
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Originally Posted By WS6_Keith: Originally Posted By sleepdr: Verticalgain, I'm not an idiot and know the difference between armor steel and dumpster steel. I also know enough to research and even read multiple posts here and elsewhere demonstrating lightweight M193 vs steel armor. Read a few posts above yours and you'll see someone else alluding to the same thing. This isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon. Google it. Your erroneous information masquerading as fact could get someone killed. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile ETA: Armored Mobility plates - specifically stated which rounds defeat which plates here: http://www.strykertactical.com/amiarmorpg1.htm According to that link, the 3rd plate listed (TAC3S) will stop all threats including M193 and M855. Those are the coveted Armored Mobility hybrid plates mentioned here and elsewhere. They are the composite steel and HDPE plates ostensibly available only to military and LE. Hence my comment that the only commonly available plates to most of us in the unwashed masses are ceramic. http://www.armoredmobility.com/products_tac3s.php Their SAPI3 won't stop m855, so I presume they are HDPE Their TACST won't stop m193, so I presme from that and the ST suffix that they are steel. |
If a doctor says you're going to feel some pressure, buckle up! -Brian Regan
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Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKprcAno1bo Call them to ask about a specific plate. |
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Originally Posted By Swat_dude: Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. If you went specifically with their milspec SAPI that are ceramic, they are designed for survivability from 5.56 M855, 7.62x51 (.308), and 7.62x54. Their website lists specifics for the various plates they sell. Steel, again, gets punched by M193 but doesn't appear to come in 11x14. Their HDPE comes in 11x14 and is defeated by M855. Their SAPI should be fine against both, along with the 7.62 rounds. |
If a doctor says you're going to feel some pressure, buckle up! -Brian Regan
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Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKprcAno1bo Call them to ask about a specific plate. Interesting video. Unfortunately, if you were getting shot multiple times you wouldn't have time to pause and put the plate back together everytime. It seems like a better construction plate holder could hold everything in place so it didn't de-laminate like it did. |
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Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKprcAno1bo Call them to ask about a specific plate. Interesting video. Unfortunately, if you were getting shot multiple times you wouldn't have time to pause and put the plate back together everytime. It seems like a better construction plate holder could hold everything in place so it didn't de-laminate like it did. Just having it in a plate carrier would hold it together better. even if it starts to seperate, it would still be held together |
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Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKprcAno1bo Call them to ask about a specific plate. Interesting video. Unfortunately, if you were getting shot multiple times you wouldn't have time to pause and put the plate back together everytime. It seems like a better construction plate holder could hold everything in place so it didn't de-laminate like it did. If you get hit by more than one or two you are most likely down for the count. |
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Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKprcAno1bo Call them to ask about a specific plate. Interesting video. Unfortunately, if you were getting shot multiple times you wouldn't have time to pause and put the plate back together everytime. It seems like a better construction plate holder could hold everything in place so it didn't de-laminate like it did. If you get hit by more than one or two you are most likely down for the count. What if you are getting hit by more than one as you are going down for the count? I still think the less holes to plug the better. Plus, then why worry about multi-hit capability if that is your stance? |
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Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKprcAno1bo Call them to ask about a specific plate. Interesting video. Unfortunately, if you were getting shot multiple times you wouldn't have time to pause and put the plate back together everytime. It seems like a better construction plate holder could hold everything in place so it didn't de-laminate like it did. If you get hit by more than one or two you are most likely down for the count. What if you are getting hit by more than one as you are going down for the count? I still think the less holes to plug the better. Plus, then why worry about multi-hit capability if that is your stance? right.... 
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Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Originally Posted By KJB:
Originally Posted By Swat_dude:
Any idea what the SAPI Plates sold by BPM will stop? I went with these plates because I am larger and I liked the availability of the 11 x 14 plate. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cKprcAno1bo Call them to ask about a specific plate. Interesting video. Unfortunately, if you were getting shot multiple times you wouldn't have time to pause and put the plate back together everytime. It seems like a better construction plate holder could hold everything in place so it didn't de-laminate like it did. If you get hit by more than one or two you are most likely down for the count. What if you are getting hit by more than one as you are going down for the count? I still think the less holes to plug the better. Plus, then why worry about multi-hit capability if that is your stance? If you are knocked down by a hit in the plate, and someone is still trying to kill you, they'll just shoot you in the face. |
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Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Originally Posted By sleepdr:
Verticalgain, I'm not an idiot and know the difference between armor steel and dumpster steel. I also know enough to research and even read multiple posts here and elsewhere demonstrating lightweight M193 vs steel armor. Read a few posts above yours and you'll see someone else alluding to the same thing. This isn't exactly an unknown phenomenon. Google it. Your erroneous information masquerading as fact could get someone killed. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile ETA: Armored Mobility plates - specifically stated which rounds defeat which plates here: http://www.strykertactical.com/amiarmorpg1.htm According to that link, the 3rd plate listed (TAC3S) will stop all threats including M193 and M855. I believe all ESAPI (lvl IIIA) must be used in conjunction with soft armor inserts or they are useless...I know guys who just go and buy lvl IV plates and use those. they stop whatever the taliban throws at you for the most part. |
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Originally Posted By Deathmoney07: tagging...? what the hell does that mean? When you post in a thread, there is an option at the bottom to SUBSCRIBE. If you subscribe, then it tags this thread for easy find in your SUBSCRIPTIONS button area. Tagging refers to a post made just to subscribe to the thread. I'm not sure if non-team members have the option, but I know I have an option at the top of each page to SUBSCRIBE...so I don't have to post to keep it in the subscriptions area. |
Keith-
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Originally Posted By sleepdr:
Unless there's something new about their steel plates, that's not correct. M193 - 55gr FMJ zips right through steel, and the 62gr M855 pierces HDPE plates. Last time I checked, that 55gr stuff was one of the most common types of 5.56 sold. Certainly one of the most common things you'd encounter during a rifle course, which is when many of us would likely be wearing the plates. I can confirm this. Even AR500F steel is like butter to M193 in any wearable thickness (and I use the term "wearable" loosely), while UHMWPE struggles with M855. Ceramic is the only thing that I'm aware of being widely available that will defeat both threats. If steel stopped M193, I'd have been all over it for its cheaper cost and multi-hit capability. As it is, I'll muddle along with my $$ ceramic plates and not do stupid things like drop-kick them or run over them with a car. There are at least two composite Dyneema-based plates that can stop both M193 & M855, made by Safariland and Midwest Armor. |
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Originally Posted By verticalgain:
Originally Posted By sleepdr:
Originally Posted By verticalgain:
The steel plates from BulletProofMe should stop pretty much any kind of 556 you run across. They're what I use, and they are rated better for multiple hits than most ceramic plates. Unless there's something new about their steel plates, that's not correct. M193 - 55gr FMJ zips right through steel, and the 62gr M855 pierces HDPE plates. Last time I checked, that 55gr stuff was one of the most common types of 5.56 sold. Certainly one of the most common things you'd encounter during a rifle course, which is when many of us would likely be wearing the plates. Ceramic is the only thing that I'm aware of being widely available that will defeat both threats. If steel stopped M193, I'd have been all over it for its cheaper cost and multi-hit capability. As it is, I'll muddle along with my $$ ceramic plates and not do stupid things like drop-kick them or run over them with a car. Not all steels are equal. The 1/4" steel in a rifle plate isn't the same as say the steel in a dumpster or car. There are many videos of steel rifle plates stopping all flavors of 556 cold for multiple hits. The NATO requirement for ss109/m855 specifies that the round has to be able to penetrate a 10 gauge (3mm) piece of steel at 600 yards. M193 does the same at 400 yards. It(ss109) simply increases the penetration of the round at a longer range. It's designed to shoot through helmets, not rifle plates(6+mm). The reason 5.56 can punch through HDPE is because it isn't made out of steel. 
Show me any 1/4" steel stopping M193 at 50' or less. I would love to see it. |
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Originally Posted By andytk5:
Seems like Bulletproofme is the only place to get plates for us civies.. Been looking everywhere for somebody to sell the Maxpro plates at $175 but its a manufacturer thing, they wont do it. So far. If you want to spend $ on a top quality plate, there are only 1 or 2 places that will sell to civvies. Otherwise, you're typically buying junk. |
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Originally Posted By zombiegristle: Why would you put steel underneath your Brachial Artery? Get ceramic, side plates aren't too spendy. I don't think ceramics would fit in the MSAP side plate carriers with a backer. I have the backers and it's already somewhat tight. A 1/4" plate and it would be done I think. I've got the DSG steel/ti plates front and rear...wish they made the same thing in side plate size. 6x6. |
Keith-
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Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Originally Posted By zombiegristle:
Why would you put steel underneath your Brachial Artery? Get ceramic, side plates aren't too spendy. I don't think ceramics would fit in the MSAP side plate carriers with a backer. I have the backers and it's already somewhat tight. A 1/4" plate and it would be done I think. I've got the DSG steel/ti plates front and rear...wish they made the same thing in side plate size. 6x6. You could go slightly larger on the pockets to allow for room, bulletproofme.com has a variety of sizes and I'm sure if you called them they could whip something up for you in your coloration of choice. I would try very hard to stay away from steel under the arm. |
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Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Originally Posted By zombiegristle:
Why would you put steel underneath your Brachial Artery? Get ceramic, side plates aren't too spendy. I don't think ceramics would fit in the MSAP side plate carriers with a backer. I have the backers and it's already somewhat tight. A 1/4" plate and it would be done I think. I've got the DSG steel/ti plates front and rear...wish they made the same thing in side plate size. 6x6. $300+ is pretty pricey for 6X6 or 6X8 side plates. ive also got the DSG plates,they were the first place i looked for side plates. im not concerned with spalling,there are enough treatment options to prevent it.PX-2100 for example. |
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Originally Posted By spoons21369:
Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Originally Posted By zombiegristle:
Why would you put steel underneath your Brachial Artery? Get ceramic, side plates aren't too spendy. I don't think ceramics would fit in the MSAP side plate carriers with a backer. I have the backers and it's already somewhat tight. A 1/4" plate and it would be done I think. I've got the DSG steel/ti plates front and rear...wish they made the same thing in side plate size. 6x6. $300+ is pretty pricey for 6X6 or 6X8 side plates. ive also got the DSG plates,they were the first place i looked for side plates. im not concerned with spalling,there are enough treatment options to prevent it.PX-2100 for example. Besides spalling, you would rather carry an extra few pounds? |
There is one certain means by which I can be sure to never see my country's ruin; I will die in the last ditch! Evil_ATF: He may speak true but no one calls my woman a bitch except me, motherfucker. Get off of your shark and prepare to defend yourself.
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Originally Posted By Swoosh101:
Originally Posted By spoons21369:
Originally Posted By WS6_Keith:
Originally Posted By zombiegristle:
Why would you put steel underneath your Brachial Artery? Get ceramic, side plates aren't too spendy. I don't think ceramics would fit in the MSAP side plate carriers with a backer. I have the backers and it's already somewhat tight. A 1/4" plate and it would be done I think. I've got the DSG steel/ti plates front and rear...wish they made the same thing in side plate size. 6x6. $300+ is pretty pricey for 6X6 or 6X8 side plates. ive also got the DSG plates,they were the first place i looked for side plates. im not concerned with spalling,there are enough treatment options to prevent it.PX-2100 for example. Besides spalling, you would rather carry an extra few pounds? a 6X8 ceramic plate from bulletproofme is 2.8 lbs. each as listed on there site.the steel 6X8 plates ive found at pinnacle Armor are only 1.85 lbs per plate.a difference of nearly 2 lbs per set. |
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I've called manufacturers such as ProTech/SafariLand andI cant get a fucking answer for the life of me and research isnt doing me any good either. so here it is.
Whats the main difference between ceramic lvl IV plates and boron carbide lvl IV plates. Ive gathered the only difference is density and the possibility that boron carbide can withstand multiple hits from AP ammo. and also the fact that ceramic are like 400-500$ and boon carbide are $2k a piece... thanks for the help. |
| Boron Carbide IS ceramic. As in, ceramic plates are made of either Boron Carbide (usually level IV standalone or ESAPI), Silicon Carbide (SAPI and some lightweight level III plate), or Alumina Oxide (heavier level III plates). Sort of like asking what the difference between a hollowpoint and a Gold Dot is - one is a subset of the other. |
| im aware that they're all ceramic, I was just hoping someone could clarify as to why the boron carbide plates are 2 grand vs regular cermic plates that are 400$ but both are rated NIJ lvl IV stand alone. As stated previously all I have found is that one cermic is more dense than the other but I can't find anything stating one is better than the other. All I can assume is that the boron carbide is better since its 4X the price of regular lvl IV standalone plates. |
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Do you know what the composition is of the "regular" ceramic plates you're comparing the Boron Carbide ones to? It may boil down to minor differences in weight or thickness, if the ratings are identical. If they're from different manufacturers, then that could also be it.
The theoretical difference, assuming the "regular" plates are not Boron Carbide, is that Boron Carbide is the hardest of the ceramic options (while Silicon Carbide is the lightest and Alumina Oxide the cheapest). That translates into better projectile-shattering ability per thickness, as well as more risk of spalling and more brittle plates. These differences, however, are theoretical and may or may not actually manifest in any useful way - plate construction plays a MUCH bigger role in what happens when it catches a bullet. |
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This may have already been answered, but does anyone know what the actual construction of the bulletproofme.com level IV stand-alone ceramic plates is? Al oxide? Si carbide? Ceramic hybrid laminated over some variety of HDPE?
Also, any idea who the original manufacturer is for those plates? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
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Originally Posted By jmint:
Id like to know what the plates are made of as well as I just ordered some today! 
What do you guys think of soft armor in the cumberbunds of a PC? Necessary? I'm used to running full armor carriers with side plates, so I like having the soft armor in my PC's cummerbund. |
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Originally Posted By BobTheGreat:
This may have already been answered, but does anyone know what the actual construction of the bulletproofme.com level IV stand-alone ceramic plates is? Al oxide? Si carbide? Ceramic hybrid laminated over some variety of HDPE? Also, any idea who the original manufacturer is for those plates? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It's not HDPE at level IV. No idea which ceramic type it might be. I still have trouble understanding why people choose Level IV over Level III. The technology that goes into a Level III plate these days is far more advanced (lighter, longer shelf-life, etc.) than anything I know of in Level IV. Some will stop at least one round of .30-06 non-AP, although companies won't tell you that for liability reasons. How likely are you to face a .30-06 AP round in a confrontation? |
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Originally Posted By BobTheGreat: This may have already been answered, but does anyone know what the actual construction of the bulletproofme.com level IV stand-alone ceramic plates is? Al oxide? Si carbide? Ceramic hybrid laminated over some variety of HDPE? Also, any idea who the original manufacturer is for those plates? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile They are Max-Pro Police and Armor brand, which is made by Ceradyne/Diaphorm. They are Alumina Oxide with some sort of thermoplastic composite backing. |
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Originally Posted By Layer60:
Originally Posted By BobTheGreat:
This may have already been answered, but does anyone know what the actual construction of the bulletproofme.com level IV stand-alone ceramic plates is? Al oxide? Si carbide? Ceramic hybrid laminated over some variety of HDPE? Also, any idea who the original manufacturer is for those plates? It's not HDPE at level IV. No idea which ceramic type it might be. I still have trouble understanding why people choose Level IV over Level III. The technology that goes into a Level III plate these days is far more advanced (lighter, longer shelf-life, etc.) than anything I know of in Level IV. Some will stop at least one round of .30-06 non-AP, although companies won't tell you that for liability reasons. How likely are you to face a .30-06 AP round in a confrontation? Well, I'm interested in the BPM level IV's in particular because of this video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tt2Y1I4ZQ_A I know that's not any kind of tightly controlled scientific test, but the plate stopped a heck of a lot more than one 30-06 AP. These plates also seem to be one of the more popular options readily available and affordable for a lowly peon like myself, though I'm certainly open to other suggestions. In the vid, there was clearly some kind of fibrous material laminated with the ceramic portion. Hopefully somebody knows what these plates are made of. ETA: I'm a slow typer when on my phone. Thanks for the info. Would it be safe to assume their side plates are the same construction? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
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So what are the properties of "thermoplastic composite" ballistic material as opposed to other materials? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
| The "thermoplastic composite" backing on my ESAPI is a white material, fibrous, and appears to be HDPE woven in random directions and compressed/resined. I would liken it to the material that makes up a non-aramid ballistic helmet. It's lightweight, has excellent ballistic properties, but don't expose it to a lot of heat or radiation and don't expect it to hold up to contact shots (which it won't have to if it's behind the ceramic layer). |
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We make a lot of plates using layers of UD material with the ceramic pressed in them...plus a wrapping of some sort . They are cooked and pressed at different temps and pressures. The heat/pressure cycle sort of combines all the layers into one solid piece. After getting shot, the UD will strand up like that. It's real obvious when a plate is split after getting a few rounds shot into it. CHRIS |
Life Member:
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Grass Roots North Carolina
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National Rifle Association
Gun Owners of America
Grass Roots North Carolina
North Carolina Rifle and Pistol Association
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Originally Posted By Cixelsyd:
We make a lot of plates using layers of UD material with the ceramic pressed in them...plus a wrapping of some sort . They are cooked and pressed at different temps and pressures. The heat/pressure cycle sort of combines all the layers into one solid piece. After getting shot, the UD will strand up like that. It's real obvious when a plate is split after getting a few rounds shot into it. CHRIS You press ceramics into UD? At what pressure? The last people that I knew who did that stopped a long time ago in preference of methods that don't break every other plate. I'm assuming that when you refer to UD, you mean either Dyneema or another UHMWPE? |
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Originally Posted By zombiegristle:
The "thermoplastic composite" backing on my ESAPI is a white material, fibrous, and appears to be HDPE woven in random directions and compressed/resined. I would liken it to the material that makes up a non-aramid ballistic helmet. It's lightweight, has excellent ballistic properties, but don't expose it to a lot of heat or radiation and don't expect it to hold up to contact shots (which it won't have to if it's behind the ceramic layer). Good info. Sounds like the handling rules would be pretty similar to the polyethylene plates then : don't store them in the car on a hot summer day or leave them in direct sunlight, etc. (plus the "dont drop" part for the ceramic portion) Are there any other documented tests on the BPM/Max Pro level IV's besides the video I posted? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
"A well-educated electorate, being necessary to the continuance of a free state, the right of the people to keep and read books shall not be infringed."
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Originally Posted By Layer60: Some of the ceramic plates are pressed and some are cooked under vacuum. You press ceramics into UD? At what pressure? The last people that I knew who did that stopped a long time ago in preference of methods that don't break every other plate. I'm assuming that when you refer to UD, you mean either Dyneema or another UHMWPE? I'm just a lab/range guy so I don't know about the pressures. Yes to your last question. CHRIS |
Life Member:
National Rifle Association
Gun Owners of America
Grass Roots North Carolina
North Carolina Rifle and Pistol Association
National Rifle Association
Gun Owners of America
Grass Roots North Carolina
North Carolina Rifle and Pistol Association
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Originally Posted By Layer60:
Originally Posted By BobTheGreat:
This may have already been answered, but does anyone know what the actual construction of the bulletproofme.com level IV stand-alone ceramic plates is? Al oxide? Si carbide? Ceramic hybrid laminated over some variety of HDPE? Also, any idea who the original manufacturer is for those plates? Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile It's not HDPE at level IV. No idea which ceramic type it might be. I still have trouble understanding why people choose Level IV over Level III. The technology that goes into a Level III plate these days is far more advanced (lighter, longer shelf-life, etc.) than anything I know of in Level IV. Some will stop at least one round of .30-06 non-AP, although companies won't tell you that for liability reasons. How likely are you to face a .30-06 AP round in a confrontation? uh 30 cal is quite popular here in the states. |
There is one certain means by which I can be sure to never see my country's ruin; I will die in the last ditch! Evil_ATF: He may speak true but no one calls my woman a bitch except me, motherfucker. Get off of your shark and prepare to defend yourself.
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Originally Posted By Cixelsyd:
Originally Posted By Layer60:
Some of the ceramic plates are pressed and some are cooked under vacuum.
You press ceramics into UD? At what pressure? The last people that I knew who did that stopped a long time ago in preference of methods that don't break every other plate. I'm assuming that when you refer to UD, you mean either Dyneema or another UHMWPE? I'm just a lab/range guy so I don't know about the pressures. Yes to your last question. CHRIS Autoclave? Yeah, that's the way to mix the UHMWPE with ceramics. You get a finished product with no breakage during the pressure cycle. I still don't like ceramics.
Might I inquire which company? (IM, if you prefer.) |
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maybe this has been answered.
in-conjucture plates require a soft armor backer to achieve the max protection. and blunt force trauma. will stand alone plates require a soft armor backer to prevent blunt force trauma? |
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| Since this was brought to the top...I thought I'd mention that I recently contacted International Armor - the same people that make the Level III plates that DSG sells, and sold in the group purchase about a year ago. Anyway, they have the capability to make 6x6 side plates and are going to do a run, soon to be available from DSG. I haven't received pricing info yet, but if you're looking for side plates in this size, it would be a good idea to let [email protected] know. :) |
Keith-
Armor Plates (Page 10 of 12)
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