Double tap...

I find it very interesting that you are against the LPA sight because you feel it could be bumped and displaced, yet you are championing the 590?
How do you think this will fare slammed up against a doorway, barricade, or wall? In fact, that's how they are often times INSTALLED, is via impact tools when someone isn't g oing to use the proper clamp/pusher to do it.


My second notation would be that, no, under stress, a pump action is NOT what you want. You want something that isn't going to get short-stroked. Semi-autos jam a lot less than people short-stroke pumps. Especially under stress.

The O-rings, I can still agree with you on. I can see them getting ham-fisted up. Luckily they are cheap, easy to replace, and so on. THey also aren't really necessary for the weapon to function, if you really want to get down to it.

You were so amazed by that "quote" you had to repost it yourself?

I'm guess I'm missing something there?

S/F

Al

The 590A1 version that the Marine Corps fielded as a backup/suppliment to the problematic M1014 was the 20" plain bead sighted version with a standard mag tube (no extension), 6rd cap. Points for trying though!

As far as short-stroking, I've seen far more auto's malfunction than folks short-stroke on a slide action. I've taught alot of students/attended quite a few courses myself, not to mention multiple deployments.

S/F

Al

You’re missing more than just a little something if you believe pump shotguns are more reliable than semis in high stress shoot situations, and that a firearm with “buttons” is too difficult to operate in combat. Since this isn’t the GD I’ll leave the rest of my comments to myself, but while the Benelli M4 is just a machine (which can fail)....your statement goes against the general sentiment of pretty much everybody who has ever laid hands on an M4...both civilian and combat.

. This IS a tech forum you know.  It’s interesting how your experience is pretty much opposite of everyone else’s out there. We get it...you don’t like the Benelli.

And your experience is where Bro?

As you stated a tech forum. As in actual user experience (non range, gaming). Now we're happy.

S/F

Al

Not a fanboy at all. I have owned dozens of different shotguns from several brands. I’ve had plenty in my formations too. You’re trolling...nothing more.  The fact that you claim the M4 is too complicated reinforces my suspicion you’ve never touched an M4 outside of a video game.

ETA: As for experience...I don’t waste time trying to justify myself or my creds to internet John Wicks. But I shot a dog once with a Mossberg in a land far away. Have a good one [radio edit].

Edited for PC.

S/F

Al

Complains about changing loads in an M4 being too difficult. Champions a 590A1.

Ha. Haha. Hahahahahahahahahahahaha.

EDIT: Before I get hit with the fanboy tag as well, I own and shoot both. M4 is my favorite semi-auto, M590A1 is my favorite pump. And I'm sorry, but cms is right, most of the above is just plain derp.

Well the “civilian” version I own personally is an M4 Super 90 according to Benelli. Please just go away. This is a tech forum...as in semi intelligent and fairly adult conversation.

Unfortunately this happens in M4 threads because people get too emotionally vested in the firearms they love to hate. I find it odd that people go so far out of the way as to make up outlandish BS which hasn’t come us as an issue or concern over a product.

Attached File

Mine is just like yours, minus 4.5" of barrel and mag tube, and sitting in my dealer's safe :(

I've owned over half a dozen M4s90 (4 Or 5) and m1014 (2) shotguns, now. Each was a flawless performer.

The front sight issue brought up is not without merit. It IS a weak point. Then again, it's the price paid for modularity and capability over a bead. No-one else seems to have a better solution anyway.

O rings can be torn, yes. Don't ham fist. Keep spares.

Too complicated? Pump more reliable because gross motor skills and stress? Even Rob Haught will tell you he's shortstroked a few under even non life threatening stressful situations. I am of the opinion that these comments and detractors came from an emotional place vs. one of statistical significance.

The person making those comments likes a bead sighted, pump action, bottom loading, side ejecting shotgun. Nothing wrong at all with that, but I think we need to color it that way. Based on their statements theybwouod also find unsatisfactory:

Beretta 1301
Remington 1187
Remington VM and military versions
Benelli anything with LPA.
Mossberg with grs
Many others

So keep that in mind when observing how they view the m4 and m1014.

I would really like to have another one, but this one a M4 H2O with the NP3 coating.  The only ones I see on GB are NIB and beyond the budget.  Never a used one.  That has to tell you something.

Unsurprisingly, they’ll run fine without orings in place in a pinch. The front sight is the best option for now. Some day a more robust option may be incorporated, but the LPA’s have become the standard. I have a 14.5 barrel assembly at our shop (sot) and will grab it once my stamp clears as well. It’s such a handy setup in SBS configuration.

I had a dozen in my MP Platoon from May 2004 - Apr 2005. Broke several during predeployment workups at Camp Pendleton, 29 Palms, Miramar AS, and Gunsite. Broke the remaining guns during operations throughout Anbar Province from Aug 2004 - Feb 2005. Like stated before, replacement parts were a logistical nightmare for simple "wear" items. Front sight is a weak design. LOP is too long for most when wearing body armor and collapsing stock is only good to take up less space to store the gun. Units that RIP'ed us (Relief In Place) already had the supplemental replacement in hand, 6 shot 590A1. The M1014 was a solution to a problem that didn't exist.

I'm at a loss as to how that is not actual experience.

S/F

Al

[EDITED BY ME,to avoid any confusion.]

You said o rings and fs. Did anything else break?

there's an H2O version on the EE.

have you heard from any recent users?
I would think that weaknesses would have been addressed after 13 years.

Only the original runs were np3.

I saw that.  Thanks.

Sorry, must of left it in Fallujah.

Give me the Benelli over the Mossberg all day long. Fighting through the city and I never had a problem. High round count courses in Norfolk, camp David I saw way more ejectors on Mossbergs disappear then benellis go down.

Don't get me wrong, I like Mossbergs, they are currently my go to shotgun.

I'm not sure what part about that sound like a "Lie" but that was MY experience in an operational environment.

The guns I had suffered greatly from gas problems. The O-ring issue was, as I stated, a logistical problem. This was a very new weapon system to the Marine Corps in 2004. There was very little literature and even less specific training out at the time. It was basically issued and assumed that SNCO's and Training Managers (S3) in the Fleet would sort it out. We had no replacement parts in the armories. I lucked out and was sent over to report to a LtCol at Group 47 about a week after I got to Miramar, that dude turned out to be LtCol "Freddy" Blish. A week after that 5 junior Marine NCO's and myself were headed to Gunsite for a couple weeks of courses (250 Pistol and 260 Shotgun) because the Marine Corps had no training regimen for this platform. I met some incredible people there. Upon return a training course was set up at Camp Pendleton with an offsite Civilian Instructor, Louis Awerbuck. Myself and 2 of My younger NCO's that attended the Gunsite Shotgun course assisted Louis in a modified training course for the M1014 (again, because nothing had been published at this time). We cycled Marines through this new course of fire for the next 3 weeks. Marines from PMO's on Pendleton, Miramar, and Twentynine Palms, SOTG, and 1st Recon Bn came through, altogether maybe 500. The guns gun thousands, tens of thousands, of rounds through them. Gas and cycling problems became evident with the high round count over the short span. When a gun went down, it was replaced with another and sent to the supporting armory. Guns still operating on the line were cleaned at the end of each training day.

Fast forward to deployment and those same problems didn't go away. Now the guns were getting banged around. This is the point that the weakness or lack of durability of the front sight became an issue. They started to literally fall off the guns about 4 - 6 weeks into the deployment. Again, a gun went down and we replaced it with another because there were no parts, until we ran out of the few guns to replace it. The collapsible stock baffled pretty much everyone, no adjustment to length of pull. It's function was strictly for transport or storage. Nowhere to mount a weapon light, remember this is 2004. Guns became so sluggish that we just ran 1oz slugs as they would cycle somewhat reliably. I heard that the gun was supposed to cycle non lethal and breaching rounds but I never saw any. It didn't cycle the buck rounds with any reliability so I saw it as a non issue.

This was MY experience. As far as a platform it was a nightmare. Great concept in a clean supported environment but execution in the field was a different story. My experience led me to believe it was a weapon best suited for Garrison duty. The main users are going to be Military Police and Specialized Units so maybe it fit the intent. As a main battle supplemental weapon system it failed miserably. Perhaps 15 years later, maybe they got the kinks worked out but, to me, it's a gun that answered a question that no one asked.

I served in the Marine Corps from 1991 - 2005. I left and crossed over to the Blue later in the year. I now work as an AGR at a combined Air Base, hit my 27th year last month. I have been a CATM Instructor since graduating the Combat Arms Trainer/Maintenance course in 2006. I teach all "Organic" small arms up to the M107. I even taught and maintained guns in the civilian(a large now defunct retailer) and commercial nuke sectors for about 5 years total.

Pretty non high speed yet detailed tale to be a bunch of "Lies" don't you think?

YMMV

S/F

Al

I wouldn't know. I left they Marine Corps for the Air Force in 2005. We adopted the M870MCS when the old worn 870's phased out. My "problem" is solved.

S/F

Al

The 590 isn't my first choice either. I'm an 870P guy. They work. When they don't work, I know how to fix them.

Never made it to Fallujah. Got f'd up in Hit a couple times and that nice little town of Haditha

S/F

Al

[Edited by me]

Benelli has made some rolling changes that I know about, and I bet, some that I do not. Your experience with reliability, I do not understand. It could have been the springs in the caps were a bad batch and took a set and vented too much gas too easily. Or the gas ports were not drilled to the right size. Or any number of other things that Benelli quietly fixed. I just know that nowdays everyone is finding them absurdly reliable, so this may be a case of "unlined M16 chambers in the 1960's", so to speak.

All of my M4 and my M1014's have cycled down to 2.75 dram target loads (that is 1-1/8oz @1175fps.)

Because let's call it what it is, passive aggressive.

Anyway, that was MY experience in 04-05 Operationally. Again, YMMV. Out.

S/F

Al

On a more verifiable level, HendersonDefense's (aka Battlefield Vegas) M4 is the only shotgun that hasn't gone down while the Mossberg 500s and Remington 870s are breaking at regular intervals from the sheer number of rounds being sent through them. Their guns get shot more than a weapon in WW3 probably would.

That seems to line up with the majority of users' experience. Maybe CATM-Al saw a bad initial batch or something.

I don't think M4s have been sold at a high rate...I think the prices are low because of the industry...no one is really buying anything right now...which brings down prices.

I stand by that the M4 is hands down the best usable shotgun created...it is pricey...it is not for all...

I think the M4 is to shotguns what the Mark 23 is to pistols. It's extremely expensive and a bit unusual, but you get what you pay for with a platform that is overbuilt for its task, performs superbly, and is exceptionally durable and easy to maintain.

If you've got the funds for it, it is the gun to beat.

bingo...exactly. I love my M4.

If you want a true H2O, you’re better off sending your shotgun in to Robar and having it plated. They’ll likely get you for 900 bucks after the chemical stripping and plating costs, but you’ll avoid the crazy prices of the H2O’s out there. Also, be cautious, the new H2O’s are Cerakote to look like NP3. I’ve had several clients get scammed by this.

Best part is you can send your accessories in to match.

That is slick.

literally...

What you did there... I see it.

I love my M4, by far my favorite shotgun.  I bought one of the three color desert paint scheme ones.  Known to my friends as my Hot Italian blonde mistress...

That's funny because I have both.  If I needed money I would sell the MK23.  If I needed to kill the $#!! out of something I would grab the M4.  If I needed to do it quietly I would grab the MK23.

my 3 gun semi is a mosberg 930 jm pro

Slayed several ducks this past season with mine...

so what it is mil issue so is the M9 I  like the M4 but being DOD selected does not make it god's fist.

the FNH p90 is widlry used by many militaries & a NATO caliber it is universally disliked here dispirit that

Probably true.  My $150 and $200 Remington 870s haven't been fired in 10 years.   I won't be selling them.

Has anybody shot 15Y trap with an SBS?  Asking for a  friend...........

I have both as well and would never sell either.

I'm only talking about my experience. My experience with 930s are a joke. I'm glad you got a good one. They do exist but far and few between.

This is kinda off the subject, but still related to the Benelli M4.  Anyone have an AVATactical light mount (like in the sexy NP3 photo above) for sale.  I can't find one for the life of me.

Wait 60 to 90 days. AVA is updating it.

Now that is the sexy I love love it I am jealous.