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Posted: 11/27/2006 11:49:59 PM EDT
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so i was looking at the Benelli M4 you cant buy the same one the Marines use. $1500 and it has a limited tube. I saw on gunbroker you can get extension tubes but the USMC version has a sold mag tube like the mossberg 590 Is the USMC version available ? |
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I'm afraid not. Due to import restrictions the civilian M1014's have a limited mag tube and even though the stock looks collapsible, it's fixed. This is due to the 922(r) regulation you may have heard about. It's the same one that requires thumbhole stocks on imported AK's (MAK90's etc.) and AK builders to use a certain amount of US made parts. It's really a confusing POS of a law. I got a good deal on my M1014 used, and then decided to add a rifle stock to make it legal to add a full length tube. 
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Got my full length magtube for $190.00 here: www.benelliusa.com/forums/ultimatebb.php/topic/1/3739.html Made in the US and fit and finish is great. 
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I would also like to know if you need to change out the mag spring. Thanks |
Yeah, the LE or Limited Edition version. This was the first M4 available in the US. The downside on these: There's the American Flag on the side, which some don't like. Then there's the issue of the recoil spring tube. The recoil spring tube on the USMC M1014 is what allows the skeletonized telestock to actually collapse, it has a contour machined into it to allow for the stock's movement. The recoil spring tube on the Limited Edition model is not machined to accept a functional telestock, which is why yours does not work and is just for show. Another version of the M4 currently available to civvies, which wasn't at the time the LE was available, is the model 11707, which comes with either a straight stock or a pistol grip stock (not the telestock), but has the same recoil spring tube as the USMC version, so a telestock WILL fit and function on it. The Limited Edition is not as desirable as the 11707 because of this. The recoil spring tube could be swapped out for tyhe 11707 version, but Benelli does not sell this as an individual part to civilians. You'd have to buy the whole 11707 model to get it. |
922r legality aside, you'll need the telestock assembly, which is about $175, and a full-length mag tube, which are all over the place in price. In order to do this legally, you need to seap out some parts for US-made ones to get rid of the "imported" moniker. |
They came with a 5 round capacity for a reason, that's how they were Form 6'd. Swapping the pistol-grip stock out had a legal purpose during the AWB, but it doesn't have any legal purpose under current law. |
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So all in all, a person can make their "Off the shelf" M4 into the true Joint Service Combat Shotgun of their dreams, I opted not for the Skelentonized stock but do have a SRM extension on mine and the factory pistol grip. Other then that its the same gun being used by our troops. Love the M4! |
| Hmmm. Now I'm confused. I just bought a new M4 and it came with a functioning telestock and the convaluted limiter on the magtube. I recently purchased an american-made full length magtube to replace it, but haven't got around to putting it on yet. I don't have to worry about 922r, since the magtube was made in USA, right? |
No, the mag tube is but one part and the mag tube itself is what makes it illegal. You'll need to replace at least 3 before it will be considered not-imported. The full-length mag tube itself changes the imported configuration by increasing the mag capacity above the 5 round limit, so that would have to be at least the 3rd US part to be installed, technically speaking. Make sense? You need the part count to be no more than 10 imported parts in order to change the imported configuration as you'd be doing by installing a full-capacity tube. The functional-telestocked M4s are a bit of a thorn in the side of Benelli USA. They are sold to dealers as being for retail sale only to LE or gov't users, but Benelli dealers are selling them to civvies anyway. Very technically speaking, it's a permit violation for these to be sold to the civilian market in that form, but there they are anyway. Then there are the M4s that are being retrofitted with the telestock by dealers before being sold to civvies, which is also not legal. The guns are illegal in that form in the hands of civilians, but there's not much by way of enforcement going on over it. You may get into trouble if you ever have to send the gun back to Benelli for service. It's also a bait gun in that if ever ATF gets to looking at it carefully for whatever reason, they'll confiscate it. Doubt there'd be a prosecution as 922r is so complicated that it's hard to sell a jury on holding the average guy responsible for understanding it, but technically the gun is contraband and they can take it. The US made mag tube, a US made mag tube follower (just about any will do) and one other part from the master list will make a USMC clone version of the M4 completely legal. |
I appreciate all of the info. What a bunch of buearucratic BS, though. I mean, how can you purchase a gun that is technically illegal right out of the box? I've seen this setup being sold from many different dealers here in Houston. Is there any real chance of me getting into trouble if I try and use it at a range? Where do I find sources for the other parts to make this thing kosher? I'd like to keep the working telestock. |
100% correct. 922r does not apply to NFA, so that's the other way of making it legal. Form 1 the gun and youare in the clear, though even with an 18" barrel it would still be under the regs of NFA as a SBS. Other than that, it's swapping out parts. It's a tough issue. On one hand, 922r does not appear publically as being very enforced to the point of being almost legal mythology. But on the other, only a conviction would make public record of a 922r violation. Plea deals make these types of violations tough to gauge as it ends up not being on the record for anyone to reference. But if you have to plea deal, you're in trouble anyway. I doubt going to the range will be an issue, but you just never know. This problem is so widespread that it's almost civil disobedience. Benelli USA stopped importing ALL mag extensions for this reason as adding one to an imported shotgun creates an unimportable, hence illegal, firearm. And if democrats win the presidency in '08, this could be one of those ATF policy switches that is thrown without warning becoming a ravenously enforced law overnight. Who knows? Best to stay legal. |
Fact is Benelli stopped civilian sales of all magazine extensions, including those for their PUMP shotguns. It would appear there's something more behind the Benelli mag issue than just 922(r) and it seems as though someone put the scare to Benelli. I'm sure we will never know exactly why they stopped cold turkey .. maybe something to do with Beretta/Benelli contracts, threats of liabiltiy, new management, who knows. What we do know is that Winchester / FN are legally importing and openly selling many semiautos which have full length factory mags over 5 rounds. If someone thinks the ATF is going to drop a net, it had better be a big one since there's gonna be thousands of Benelli's, Winchesters and FNs to round up. Some may point to the error laden and personalized letters that were received from the ATF (some say from the wrong desk at the ATF anyway) as proof of the illegality of the imported Benelli series extensions. These one off letters are nice momentos for those who took the time to write Uncle Sam, but until there is an officially published LIST of these 'certain' weapons put out by the ATF, I don't think there is much need to worry about the 'facts' as presented thus far. Benelli published their catalog stating that the mag tubes were legal, and if someone is ever jammed for it, then a good defense attorney better well drag Benelli into court along with them (would be a good time to get ATF to explain why the Super X2 Practical or FN self loading police ARE legal as well). One last curiosity ... if Benelli stopped selling mag tubes because they became aware of 922(r) issues, you think they would still be sponsoring Tom Knapp (and now Tim Bradley) to go all around the country shooting Benellis gussied up with those long mag tubes ?? |
Lots of assumptions here. Of course Benelli isn't going to just stop sales of a highly lucrative accessory on their own accord. ATF did in fact go to Benelli and "request" that they stop sales of these extension tubes citing 922r. That's common language over at Benelli. Who's to say how FN or Winchester import/manufacture their guns? There are many ways at the importation/manufacturing level to get around 922r, these ways and means are just not readily available at the consumer level. FN FS2000s have just enough US made parts to be legal, the rest is imported with final assembly inside the US. Who's to say Tom Knapp's guns are not 922r compliant? Just because they have the mag extensions means nothing. I'm sure his guns are legit as Benelli's legal department would have daelt with this very subject with him. They going to cover their butts seeing as though their banner appears all over at his exhibitions. |
Common over at Benelli, huh? You seem to be in the know with Benelli, perhaps you can direct us to a written position statement from Benelli outlining how their discontinuance of extensions was done in order to comply with an ATF 'request'. The only thing I've ever seen in writing from Benelli concerning the extensions was the statement in their catalog saying these were now legal (following expiration of the '94 ban). Yes rulings and interpretations can change, and in this case one would assume that the ATF has the authority to enforce said rules rather than simply having to make a "request" to Benelli. Maybe the ATF was just being nice that day. Since Benelli once advertised and sold the extensions as legal, you have to wonder why they have remained publicly silent about it if they now know them to be illegal for assembling onto their shotguns. With no go-to public documentation from the Feds and nothing from Benelli, there really isn't much anyone could assume about the (il)legality of the Benelli extensions, particularly given the widespread commercial availability of alternative extensions and other imported +5 rd shotguns.
Oooh, smoke and mirrors to sneak past 922(r). No assumptions there I see. I would think it is up to Winchester to say how they manufacture their guns. They actually do provide something in writing, as shown directly in the Winchester catalog ... "Please note that the following models are or were manufactured in Japan for U.S. Repeating Arms: Models 1885, 1886, 1892, 1895, 63 and 52B. Super X2, Super X3 and Select shotguns are manufactured in Belgium and assembled in Portugal." ... and from the FAQ on the Winchester website. "Q. Are there other factories making Winchester products? A. Yes. Our other factories will continue production uninterrupted. Products made at these factories include the Super X line of shotguns including the new Super X3 autoloader and the new Super X Rifle (SXR) centerfire autoloader. Both are made in Belgium and assembled in Portugal. In addition, we will continue with our line of quality Select over and unders: the only production Belgium-made over and unders in the world. Our special historic guns -- 1885s, 95s, as well as other limited series rifles -- continue to be made at our factory in Japan. These factories are unaffected by the New Haven closure and we continue forward with our production and future plans." Too bad Benelli didn't call up Winchester/USRAC/FN before the ATF stopped by for their friendly chat. They could have gotten some pointers on skirting the law and could still be offering full capacity shotguns marked "Made in Italy".
Yep, nice banners at his shows. There's no denying that Benelli legal must have covered their butts in regards to Tom's sponsorship. I guess, dare I say, assume Benelli legal didn't bother to check Tom's website however. At the top of Tom's gun page, it asks, That seems to be a very common question! The answer is no. As a matter of fact, Tom's show guns are "right out of the box"! Now how did Tom put those long extensions on out-of-the-box imported Benellis and still remain legit ?? Tom is also selling mag extensions on the site, something which could alter a Benelli into no-no territory. He better be careful. If someone gets the impression that Benelli is somehow endorsing the extension sales on his site, he could risk loosing those nice banners. 2 plus 2 is not adding up to 4 in this whole Benelli issue. Who knows, maybe Benelli really has gotten some of that Winchester mojo (not readily available at the consumer level, of course) and in fact has a secret line of factory legitimized guns made specifically for Tom. You know, something he can use at his shows "right out of the box" while still remaining legit. I always knew Tom Knapp had some extra help in hitting those aspirin tablets besides the fiber optic sights. |
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OK, so I own an M4 with a non-benelli magazine extension that gives it the capacity of 8 shots. I read this:
I am still legal with my shotgun and if not, then why would companies be offering magazine extension for imported shotguns in the 1st place. I have a non-benelli extension on my SuperNova, guess the ATF will be busting down my door any day now...oh wait its been over a year! |
| It seems to me that at this time enforcing 922 is low priority for the BATFE. When comrad Hillary or Obama are elected in 08 however things will change. Then it will be time to target all the "domestic terrorists" owning illegally converted shotguns available only to the military. |
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