Armory Sponsor
Posted: 11/22/2005 11:38:21 AM EDT
| . |
| I can't imagine how the receiver stamping could hurt you (unless it said 666 SATAN'S Armory). And if Remington were to only produce shotguns in small numbers, then it would be cheaper to manufacture one type of gun. However, the cost of making two different models is easily absorbed in HUGE market they control. |
|
No. Any idiot can quickly find out that the guns are sold to anyone who qualifies to buy any type of firearm. I bought mine in a regular gun store, in southern California of all places. Any attempt by the prosecution to demonize the gun would force them to admit that the police also carry these shotguns and use them against criminals. It's pretty hard to screw someone for following the example of millions of police officers worldwide. |
My guess is that a good attorney could make a strong argument that would HELP you in such an incident...by demonstrating a "higher standard of care" on your part. For SURE it would look better to a bunch of grass-eating non-shooters than a shotgun marked "TERMINATOR" or such nonsense.
|
If I happen to need it in a HD scenario, why should that be a problem?
I remember reading about that. He was driving in his pickup and had the firearm with him because it was his job to review/examine it or something like that. Some biker dudes apparently had it out for him. He tried to run to no avail. He picked it up and wasn't sure if it was on auto or semi (didn't have time to look) and warned the guy to stop. Guy didn't. Gun was on auto. He let out a burst and was only prosecuted because it was an auto. |
The Hk engineer and his woman were en route to the range for a day of shooting. He personally bought the AC-556 to T&E a competitors product. On the two lane they were travelling, a motorcycle came across the bend hugging the centerline, narrowly missing the engineers pick up truck. A short time later, another pick up truck began chasing the engineer. Shots were fired, and he returned fire with a hand gun, while driving. He had his woman loading mags for the AC-556. He headed for the Hk facility he worked at, since it had a secure gate, and he stated his mindset was the "secure facility" might cause the chase to break off. It did not. When he exited his pick up in an effort to gain entrance to the building, the BG's stopped their truck a short distance from his. A VERY LARGE subject approached him (brandishing a firearm IIRC) and threatened him for "Almost running a BRO off the road". The engineer, HAVING NEVER FIRED THE RUGER PREVIOUSLY, aimed the weapon into the air to fire a warning shot. Instead, he got a warning burst of auto-fire. The BG didn't even flinch. The engineer felt threatened, and dropped the BG. It was ruled a good shoot by the court. I'm sure I've left out something, but I feel that's an accurate representation of what happend. |
| is that a knoxx spec ops stock? if so... tell me what kind of forend/ vert grip combo you use. i took mine out and the first magazine i unloaded totally demolished the rail on my forend and part of my vert grip. i got the combo on ebay. i feel i got a good deal on the combo that was made out of "virtually indestructible polymer" it lasted 5 seconds. |
Yep, it's the SpecOps and is the best money I've spent on my 870. The Forend is the Surefire Picatinny Rail (~$120) and the grip is a KAC Vertical Grip (~$40). Both units are very solid and strong. I also have a Surefire G2 light (~$40) mounted with a TDI mount (~$30) on the Surefire forend. I can't imagine a more sturdier feel for any of those components on my 870. The whole setup shoots like a dream. |
| The HK employee owned that rifle himself. It was used against him because it was fully auto, he shot the attacker 6 times i think. He was not cleared of anything, he went to trial and was found innocent. Took something like 10 years for him to pay the part of the attorney fees HK did not cover. |
I read about it too. The part that was left out was something along the lines of nearly $100,000 in legal expenses and I beieve he lost his job over it. The above may need some corrections, but I think that ws the jist of it. |
|
|
Found the article: Situation: A road-rage incident escalates into a deadly pursuit. Lesson: Keep communications as handy as your gun. Bad guys fear resolutely armed people, not weapons. Remember that full auto can stop a fight--but start an indictment. It's amazing how often a criminal will say something unbelievably stupid just before he forces a decent citizen to kill him. For many years I've been piecing together a book subtitled "Famous Last Words of Scumbags." The working title will come from the most memorable such incident: "F*** You and Your Automatic Rifle!" The shooter was Gary Fadden. The incident took place some 20 years ago. Only now is Gary comfortable speaking of it, in hopes that others may learn from lessons that cost him very deeply. The Incident Sunday, February 24, 1984, approximately 2 PM. Gary Fadden, 26, and his lovely 22 year old fiancee are driving from a birthday party in Martinsburg, WV, into Virginia to look at some property for what they hope will be their starter home after their marriage. It's a bitterly cold day, and with the winter coats in the back of a new '84 Ford F-250 supercab 4WD diesel pickup, the Pendleton-clad Fadden looks from a distance like a harmless Yuppie. That means he and the pretty brunette look like prey to another kind of person. Heading east on Rt. 50, they are passed by a Harley-Davidson motorcycle with two people astride, the operator cutting in front of him so sharply that he has to brake suddenly. Gary comments to his fiancee how cold they must be riding a bike on a low 30s day, and that driving as carelessly as he is, the cyclist needs to worry about sudden patches of ice. A few minutes later, he spots a Chevy pickup in his rearview mirrors. It contains three people. One passenger is gesturing to him to pull over. Gary doesn't know what these scruffy guys want and he ignores them. But then he sees the passenger waving a knife, and the driver bringing up a revolver. Gary says to his fiancee, in what will probably be the understatement of his life, "We've got a bit of a problem here." Pursuit It is 1984, long before the universal coming of cell phones, and there is no other communications in the vehicle. They are entering Middleburg, a town of perhaps 800, and stop at a red light. Behind them, Gary can see both males exit their truck and run toward him. The driver's hand is actually on Gary's door handle when he pops the clutch and sends his new truck screeching through the intersection against the light. The two men run back to their older pickup, and the chase is on. They're almost on his bumper. Gary accelerates, hitting open road now, zig-zagging between reaching 95 miles an hour when the speed governor cuts in. Not only are the pursuers keeping pace but he sees the driver aiming a revolver at him out his window. Honking his horn and flashing his lights when he runs into a cluster of automobiles, passing them sometimes on the shoulder of the road and spraying rooster-tails of gravel, Gary still cannot elude the truck behind him. Gary is desperately looking for a police car he can flag down. He doesn't see one. The chase has gone for 22 miles now and they're getting into a more compact area again. Coming up is an intersection tic knows well: he goes through it every day on his way to work. Even on Sunday it will be clogged. He forms a plan quickly: if the light is in his favor, he'll go through it and keep going, hoping to find police in a more populated area. If the light is against him, he'll turn right, and make for the plant where he works on Chantilly Road. The light stays red. Gary cuts hard right, heading for what he hopes will be the sanctuary of the workplace. Behind him, he can see that the pursuers haven't given up an inch. "I've got my pass card through the gates and the front door," he tells his fiancee urgently. "We'll get into the building and we can hide. They can't find us. We'll call the cops from there." He pulls into the front area of the plant, the automatic mechanism taking an achingly long time to raise the gate. As the gate opens, the pursuing truck comes to a stop behind his, both men jumping out and running to Gary's Ford, their hands clawing at his door handles. He guns the engine and gels away from them, sweeping up to the front door and locking up the brakes in a skid. The plant is Heckler and Koch. Gary Fadden is a salesman for HK, and among the rest of their firearms, he sells machine guns. In the truck with him is a competitor's weapon he has acquired to test, a Ruger AC556, the selective-fire assault version of the .223 Mini-14. He grabs it now as he throws open the truck door, hoping to hold them off at gunpoint. lie knows his fiancee can't make it to the building's door now, and he screams to her to get down on the floor of the Ford. The Shooting The passenger is running toward him, an average size man in ratty clothes with stringy hair, a long beard, and an expression of absolute rage. The selector switch and manual safety of the AC556 are in two different locations. Gary has not yet fired this weapon and, though he has taken off the safety, he doesn't know whether the switch is set for semi, three-shot burst, or full auto. He yells "Stop or I'll shoot," points the muzzle upward, and pulls the trigger for a warning shot. The weapon is set on full automatic. Everything is going into deep slow motion, and Gary is aware that the Ruger spits a burst of nine shots before he can get his finger back off the trigger. There is no effect whatsoever. The attacker is still running at him, perhaps ten yards away and closing fast, reaching for knives at his belt with each hand. The assailant screams, "F*** you and your high powered rifle! I'm gonna kill you motherf***ers!" And Gary Fadden has run out of time. He lowers the Ruger, points it at the charging knifer, and pulls the trigger one more time. in the ethereal slow motion of profound tachypsychia, Gary can see the spent .223 shells arcing lazily out of the mechanism. He stops the burst, aware that six shots have been fired, as the man in front of him falls heavily to the ground. Gary moves quickly, putting a big brick planter between himself and the onrushing pickup as cover. The truck stops and the driver, the larger of the two bearded men, shrieks. "F*** you! You killed one of the brothers! You shot him, you motherf***er!" Gary's weapon is level and ready, but this time instead of waving the revolver, the man looks as if he's trying to hide it in the cab of his truck. Gary can see now that the third person in the truck, the one who has always stayed in the cab, is a woman. And then, the police are there. "They've got guns," Gary shouts to the officers disgorging from two patrol cars. He sets his rifle down and steps back as the officers swarm the pickup truck, taking the surviving man and woman into custody. In a moment, a cop is standing with Gary. "I did it," Gary says. The cop answers, "Did what?" "I shot that man." The officer picks up the AC556. "It's loaded," Gary warns, "Do you want me to unload it'?" The policeman answers. "No, I'll do it. Why don't you sit down?" Gary Fadden sits on the curb. For a moment, it seems as if the whole bizarre nightmare is over. Unfortunately, it has only begun. Aftermath The man he had shot. Billy "Too Loose" Hamilton, was dead. He had been hit by all six rounds of Winchester 55 grain FMJ, headstamped "'WCC81." One bullet had struck behind the lateral midline in the instant that he turned away from the gunfire, taking out a chunk of his spine as is skidded across his back from side to side. This would be interpreted later by the prosecutor as having been "shot in the back." The partner, who went by the name of "Papa Zoot," had gotten his weapons out of his hands by the time police arrived. In the front of the five-year-old Chevy pickup that had chased Fadden for more than 20 miles, police found a .22 auto pistol and a four-inch Smith & Wesson L-frame .357 Magnum. The revolver had three live and three empty cartridges in the cylinder. More fired brass was on the floor, and a plastic bag with more live amino was open on the seat. Though Fadden heard no shots and no bullets hit his truck, he was convinced then and now that they were shooting at him during the chase. Hamilton's two knives, a Schrade folding hunter and a nondescript fixed blade, were found with his corpse. Gary Fadden was arrested that night and charged with 1st degree murder. His family raised $60,000 bail. He hired DC attorney Gerry Treanor to defend him. Treanor, at Gary's request, retained John Farnam and I as expert witnesses. Today, Gary remembers, "Two prosecutors wouldn't touch it until the third took it. It was all political because of the automatic weapon." The weeklong trial took place in October of 1984. Word had reached Gary that Papa Zoot had bought a .30/06 rifle and sworn a "blood oath" to kill him. I was driving toward Fairfax County when I got the message from Gary's lawyer that John and I wouldn't be needed because the prosecution had self-destructed. On the stand, Papa Zoot and the woman had testified that Gary had tried to run their biker brother off the road, and they had just followed 22 miles to get his license tag. Defense lawyer Treanor took them apart on cross-examination. An undercover detective broke his cover to testify that the deceased and Papa Zoot "put a bomb in my car. They like to rough people up." The prosecutor made such a show of waving the machine gun that the judge made a point of instructing the jury that the death weapon had nothing whatsoever to do with whether or not the shooting was self-defense. The jury learned that Gary purchased the AC-556 personally and that it was perfectly legal to possess the weapon. By the start of trial, the charge had been dropped to second-degree murder, and as the trial collapsed around the prosecutor's ears, he offered a plea to manslaughter, which Gary flatly rejected. At the end, when it was announced that the jury had found Gary Fadden Not Guilty on all counts, Fadden recalls that the self-same prosecutor snapped--in open court, in front of Gary's mother--"'You've let a murderer loose!" "'H&K protected me," says Gary. "They picked up the tab for about half of my legal bills, and got all the publicity for it, until I quit a few years later. Florian Deltgen (at that time CEO at HK) told me after an argument with the vice president that one or the other of us probably had to go, and the vice president wasn't going anywhere. I accepted a job offer from Beretta USA and then resigned from H&K. Deltgen stuck me with the remaining bill, which I paid off at 10% interest." The bill had amounted to more than $45,000. Gary was 34 years old before he had paid everything back. Dr. Deltgen is no longer with Heckler and Koch. Lessons Have communication. In 1984, only the rich had phones in their cars. Today, Gary Fadden is never without a charged-up cell phone. He knows that if he'd had one that day he could have called the police, who would have been able to interdict his pursuers before the thing became a killing situation. Flight can trigger pursuit. Prey that flees inflames the pursuit instinct of predators. This is why we teach our children never to run from snarling dogs. Gary Fadden did what society told him to do when facing criminals: he ran. They chased. By the time they caught up with him, Billy Hamilton was in such a rage to kill that he could not be deterred. Understand how deterrence really works. Papa Zoot and Too Loose had guns and amino and knives in their truck with them. In Gary's truck were a Remington Nylon 66.22 rifle (for plinking, and never touched during the incident), a 9mm HK VP70Z pistol, and the AC556 with enough amino for perhaps tour full magazines. None were loaded at the start. The pistol was loaded and placed in the console during the chase, and the rifle was at that point loaded and placed conspicuously on the dashboard by Gary in hopes that it would deter file pursuit. It did not. When Gary Fadden stepped out of his new Ford at the climax of the chase, most of us would have seen him as an intimidating presence. The man stands six feet eight and weighed 260 pounds at the time, and he was holding a machine gun. His pursuers were unimpressed. Later identified as belonging to one of the "big four" outlaw motorcycle clubs, Too Loose and Papa Zoot were members of an armed subculture themselves. They did not fear guns. Zoot was about 6'4" and 240 himself, and neither man feared big guys dressed like something off the cover of an L.L. Bean catalog. It is critical to understand this: Criminals don't fear guns. Criminals fear resolutely armed men or women they believe will actually shoot them. 22 miles of running away from them had left these wolves convinced that they were dealing with a large sheep, not the sharp-fanged sheepdog Gary Fadden turned out to be. Testimony that "they liked to rough people up" shows that they had a lot of ego invested in brutalizing others. Perhaps Hamilton, in his last moment on earth, took Fadden's warning burst as an indication of unwillingness to shoot him. Toxicology screen after death showed Hamilton to have a .19% blood alcohol content. This is a level of intoxication consistent with inhibitions being at their lowest. Gary Fadden sums it up today, "The mouse had run, and the cat was loose. Physical size was no deterrent. The gun was no deterrent with these people. If you pull a gun, you'd better be ready to use it." Politically incorrect "assault weapons" make politically incorrect defendants. Though he didn't say it in so many words, prosecutor Jack Robbins' case against Fadden seemed to be, "I say, Muffy, people of breeding simply don't shoot criminals with machine guns in Fairfax County! Now, had he used a civilized weapon like a Browning Superposed ... and preferably shot him on the rise ... " You and I know that Class III holders are the ultimate "card carrying good guys and gals." That particular card says they have been investigated for six months by the Federal government and been found trustworthy to possess machine guns. Unfortunately, most of the public in the jury pool, and most politically motivated prosecutors, don't know that. Every self-defense shooting I've run across with a Class III weapon, however justified, has at the very least ended with the shooter facing a grand jury. Asked what he thinks would have happened if he'd shot Hamilton with a Remington 870 Wingmaster instead, Fadden replies with certainty, "I would have gone home that night. I've told dozens of people since, 'Do not use a Class III weapon for personal defense."' Today, the guns Gary is likely to have in his car have neutral images: an M-1 .30 carbine, and a 10mm Glock 20 pistol. Be there for your friends. It was stunning how many people he had trusted shunned Gary after the shooting, and particularly, after his indictment. He cherishes those who stood beside him through the ordeal, particularly Jim Stone and Rick DeMilt and, most particularly, knife-maker Al Mar. Much later, after his AC556 had been returned to him by the courts, Gary gave that gun to Al Mar, another man who appreciated a fine weapon of any kind. On its stock was a brass plate engraved "To Al Mar, Because You Understand." Gary says, "For twenty years now, I've cherished every morning I've gotten up, because I earned every moment of my life. I fought for it." After Al Mar's death, Gary Fadden scraped up the money to buy his knife business, and he is CEO of Al Mar Knives to this day. One good man carrying on the work of another. It seems fitting. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- TOPICS: KEYWORDS: BANGLIST -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Lesson: Full-auto weapons might not scare dirtbags, but they WILL stop them |
Sorry about hijacking this but you put that stock and forearm on it and you want to use it to hunt and TRAP SHOOT? I could see you hunting with it Slugs of course but It would be intresting to see that on the trap line have you tried it yet? just curious. |
I'm relatively new to shotguns. In that picture I was shooting skeet which I believe is when you launch those round clay pigeons from a slinging machine. I did very well with that, hitting about 80% of my intended shots. What exactly is TRAP SHOOTING? If it requires aiming at a moving target with a shotgun, I think I'll do pretty well. |
|
Niceguy, What you are shooting are informal or hand thrown clay birds. Lot's of fun for new shooters or just to tune up before the hunting season with a bunch of friends but not a challange. Trap, skeet and sporting clays are games that are highly competitive and the birds are thrown at three times the speed that your spring machine launches those birds. Go to www.shootata.com for trap, www.mynssa.com for skeet and www.mynsca.com for sporting clays info. With your head off the stock like in the photo it is going to be hard to hit fast flying birds. MIKE. |
Armory Sponsor