Posted: 6/16/2010 10:38:55 AM EDT
| Ive been looking at the springfiel & the kimbers .they both seem really nice .I have shoot a springfield .are their any cons for either of them ?also I was told that you can swap any 1911 parts out is this true? |
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While it's true that you can swap most 1911 parts, they usually have to be fitted to your pistol (generally meaning fitted to the other parts, such as fitting a new hammer to the sear). Installing new parts is not something you should do if you aren't familiar with how a 1911 works and how to fit the parts together. Sights are only interchangeable with sights that use the same slide cut.
There is also the consideration of the series 70 vs series 80, the series 80 had a firing pin block safety that was not on the original production 1911, and I'm not sure if it can be removed. Kimber has its own safety system called the Schwartz safety, which, if I'm not mistaken is also a firing pin safety connected to the grip safety (someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure  ). Springfield has their ILS safety located in their mainspring housing (lower-back portion of the grip). Both of these can be removed or left alone at the users discretion.
Series 70 vs Series 80 Both Kimber and Springfield make a high quality firearm, though in my opinion Springfields made in the USA are typically a better value given the level of customer service they have, but there are still a few Kimbers I'd like to own. Springfields made in South America have a 2 piece barrel, and I've read that their frames are lower quality. Someone more knowledgeable about Srpingers than I am can tell you which ones are made in the USA and which are made in South America, and whether I'm correct about the frames. Bear in mind I don't have a Springfield or Kimber 1911, I do have a Springfield XD and their CS was top notch when I dealt with them. My advice, "buy once, cry once", look at the Springfield TRP and the MC Operator Also, there are a lot of guys in this forum that have forgotten more than I know about the 1911. |
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While it's true that you can swap most 1911 parts, they usually have to be fitted to your pistol (generally meaning fitted to the other parts, such as fitting a new hammer to the sear). Installing new parts is not something you should do if you aren't familiar with how a 1911 works and how to fit the parts together. Sights are only interchangeable with sights that use the same slide cut. There is also the consideration of the series 70 vs series 80, the series 80 had a firing pin block safety that was not on the original production 1911, and I'm not sure if it can be removed. Kimber has its own safety system called the Schwartz safety, which, if I'm not mistaken is also a firing pin safety connected to the grip safety (someone will correct me if I'm wrong, I'm sure ). Springfield has their ILS safety located in their mainspring housing (lower-back portion of the grip). Both of these can be removed or left alone at the users discretion.
Series 70 vs Series 80 Both Kimber and Springfield make a high quality firearm, though in my opinion Springfields made in the USA are typically a better value given the level of customer service they have, but there are still a few Kimbers I'd like to own. Springfields made in South America have a 2 piece barrel, and I've read that their frames are lower quality. Someone more knowledgeable about Srpingers than I am can tell you which ones are made in the USA and which are made in South America, and whether I'm correct about the frames. Bear in mind I don't have a Springfield or Kimber 1911, I do have a Springfield XD and their CS was top notch when I dealt with them. My advice, "buy once, cry once", look at the Springfield TRP and the MC Operator Also, there are a lot of guys in this forum that have forgotten more than I know about the 1911. Nice job on the write up! I'm going to go in a slightly different direction and suggest a Colt even a good used one can be found at reasonable prices. I do like the American made aspect but I will say that there are some great 1911's made out there and not all are American. The Rock Island Armory 1911 is establishing a tremendous reputation and can still be had in the $425 range. A little higher on the scale and you can get a G.I springfield or a Taurus 1911 with a ton of options. A Kimber custom II is a fine 1911 and can be found in the $750 as can a used Colt and don't forget a Loaded Springfield. There are a lot of choices but it will boil down to budget and intended use. |
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The kimber shwartz safety is somewhat maligned amongst 1911 afficionados and purists. Many kimbers use unique sight dovetails, which can be a minor bother - if you can, get the model with the sights you want there.
Likewise, the ILS safety isn't that well liked by many springfield owners, though replacing the mainspring housing with an aftermarket unit is quite popular. All the Springfields start as Imbel forgings, the percentage of work varying across their lines (<50% US are marked made in brazil - the Loaded line and below, the rest, MC Operator and up are marked US).... Imbel makes great stuff, ask an FAL owner. Colt XSE STI Trojan - worth considering both. I have a Springfield Loaded Parkerized - great pistol for the money, but I still consider the Springfielf MC Operator to be the best value in 1911's out there, period. |
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You see a lot of this - "I'm leaning towards a Kimber or Springfield because I've heard they're really nice."
That's a lot like somebody saying "I'm leaning towards a Trek or a Cannondale because I've heard they make really nice bikes." It's true in both cases, those brands DO make some really nice products. But be aware of the fact that both also make some very basic, so - so products. Just make sure you know what you're getting. 1911's aren't like Glocks, they're not all created equal. There is a lot of hand fitiing involved in building a proper 1911 and the price points tend to reflect how much of that was done and to what level of expertise it was executed with. Point is, you need to determine what you want the gun for and what features you really want. In my case I bought a basic Springfield Mil-Spec for around $600. After shooting it for a while I decided I wanted some modifcations made. I soon spent over $800 having them done. Just don't fall into the trap of thinking you're getting a great deal on one because the price is low. The price is low because it contains a lot of plastic and MIM parts and hasn't being built with as much refinement in fitting everything together. |
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Ive been looking at the springfiel & the kimbers .they both seem really nice .I have shoot a springfield .are their any cons for either of them ?also I was told that you can swap any 1911 parts out is this true? Based on the context in which you asked your questions, I'm going to advise that you do as much research as possible before buying. Posting here is a good start for sure. I think many here would agree that if you jump too soon, you will simply wind up looking for the one you really want after getting familiar with the 1911 platform. Your questions are quite legitimate, but it appears you have a long way to go before you'll really understand your options. I look at 1911's as kinda the AR-15's of the pistol world. They are all basically the same, but....not to the extent that you can just swap parts from pistol to pistol without some fitting. Look at, handle, and fire as many as possible before buying. Don't be impressed with marketing or advertising. Not Kimber bashing, but holy Jesus....those guys could cut the cost of their guns by 20% if they chilled out on the advertising just a bit. Just an example. Decide on barrel length and STUDY the realities of firing pin block safeties. And by the way, the Swartz (not Schwartz!) type safety is not just a Kimber thing. They use the original design by Mr. Swartz that was actually developed in the 1930's and it is, in fact, grip safety activated. Colt used it until sometime in the early 50's, I believe. Colt currently uses a trigger activated system commonly referred to as a Series 80 system. Other manufacturers use them as well. Springfield chooses to accomplish the same thing (drop fire prevention) by way of a lighter (titanium) firing pin and heavier spring. And lastly, don't be tempted by too much 'flash'. Some of the best 1911's out there are very plain looking. And for the record, I am not an expert and started just like you are. I will confess that I originally jumped in the game with little knowledge and bought and sold a few before I had any real idea what I was doing. It's been a fun ride though! And, I'm still learning. Anyway, happy hunting and welcome to a brand new obsession. |
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I'd suggest either a Rock Island Armory or Springfield Armory. I just ordered a RIA Tactical Duracoat: Total cost to hop in the venture including shipping: $724 1. Gun: $455 2. 3 Chip Mcormick "power plus" mags 8rnd: $75 3. Recoil spring 10 pack: $22 4. Esmeralda grips: $50 (new on egay) 5. Kirkpatrick TSS holster + double mag holder: $122 Possible future upgrade...Novak Night Sights installed by Novak: $170 |
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I'd suggest either a Rock Island Armory or Springfield Armory. I just ordered a RIA Tactical Duracoat: Total cost to hop in the venture including shipping: $724 1. Gun: $455 2. 3 Chip Mcormick "power plus" mags 8rnd: $75 3. Recoil spring 10 pack: $22 4. Esmeralda grips: $50 (new on egay) 5. Kirkpatrick TSS holster + double mag holder: $122 Possible future upgrade...Novak Night Sights installed by Novak: $170 Sounds like your set. Just for the OP, all this extra stuff is not a necessity and cost of an RIA would all there is except ammo and a few extra mags where ever you can find a deal. |
| It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. |
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It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. Well, I've been following your opinions on the current "TRP is a lemon" thread. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Your comments have been presented in a polite manner as well. I get it, you love your SIGs and you think Springfield is overrated and overpriced. But this statement is nothing short of ridiculous sir. My opinion.  (have both by the way)
Furthermore, I acquired my first Colt a few months ago (S80 Commander SS). I was quite pleased to find that build, fit and finish were excellent. And guess what...shoots like a champ! The only reason I was surprised is because I had been reading so much BS around here about Colt quality. What's the problem with them, specifically, if I might ask? Enjoy those SIG's! Nothing wrong with those either. |
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Iam kkinda leaning towards one with a light rail .I did look at the remengton but I dont feel it has the same quality as the rest .It is cheaper . Two questions, What is your price point? what are you looking to do with the gun? IE Carry, Range Work etc ETA: The Springfield TRP Operator and Kimber Warrior can be had for close to the same price. Springfield MC operator can be had for a couple hundred less. If I were choosing between the two companies I would take a Springfield because of their awesome warranty and customer service. In the end only you can make the decision of which one your are happy with. |
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for home protection & the range .I really like that operator with the light rail.aroun 1200 dont want to go to much over that .but I just found out sig makes 1911 .but I dont have a brand favorite . Quoted:
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Iam kkinda leaning towards one with a light rail .I did look at the remengton but I dont feel it has the same quality as the rest .It is cheaper . Two questions, What is your price point? what are you looking to do with the gun? IE Carry, Range Work etc ETA: The Springfield TRP Operator and Kimber Warrior can be had for close to the same price. Springfield MC operator can be had for a couple hundred less. If I were choosing between the two companies I would take a Springfield because of their awesome warranty and customer service. In the end only you can make the decision of which one your are happy with. |
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I also like the sig nitron rail . is there any other 1911 out there with a rail on them ? Kimber TLE, Colt Rail gun, Double Star 1911 all a little below your price point. Don't know alot about the Sig 1911's other than they have an external extractor which Kimber tried and failed with a few years back |
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I also like the sig nitron rail . is there any other 1911 out there with a rail on them ? Kimber TLE, Colt Rail gun, Double Star 1911 all a little below your price point. Don't know alot about the Sig 1911's other than they have an external extractor which Kimber tried and failed with a few years back thank you whats the double star like are they good guns ? |
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I also like the sig nitron rail . is there any other 1911 out there with a rail on them ? Kimber TLE, Colt Rail gun, Double Star 1911 all a little below your price point. Don't know alot about the Sig 1911's other than they have an external extractor which Kimber tried and failed with a few years back thank you whats the double star like are they good guns ? They've been getting great reviews as far as I know. I wish I could tell you more specifically from my own experience. Look up reviews on here and google Doublestar 1911 reviews |
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It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. Well, I've been following your opinions on the current "TRP is a lemon" thread. Everyone is certainly entitled to their opinion. Your comments have been presented in a polite manner as well. I get it, you love your SIGs and you think Springfield is overrated and overpriced. But this statement is nothing short of ridiculous sir. My opinion. (have both by the way)
Furthermore, I acquired my first Colt a few months ago (S80 Commander SS). I was quite pleased to find that build, fit and finish were excellent. And guess what...shoots like a champ! The only reason I was surprised is because I had been reading so much BS around here about Colt quality. What's the problem with them, specifically, if I might ask? Enjoy those SIG's! Nothing wrong with those either. One of the best part about forums like this is the exchange of ideas––and opinions. I am NOT knocking SAs. They make fine guns. (Colt's lowered quality of late––which I certainly hope is being improved, as I love their 1911s, is pretty much the prevailing opinion on any of the forums––and my personal experience shooting a Lightweight Commander I really wanted.) But––-for the price of the SA 'Pro' there are much better pistols, imo of course. The Nighthawk being my favorite, followed by Les Baer. I may be oversimplifying the "few tweaks," but to get a 1/4 better group off a bench rest for another $1000 over the TRP, I stand by what I said. Yes, I like my SIGS. But if someone gave me a great deal on a Springer, I'd probably buy it, as well. As to the knock on recent Colt M1911s, bushing to barrel fit and slide to frame seem to be the most often commented on. Too tight on the bushing; too loose on the barrel to frame. The LWC I shot rocked the slide by not too much pressure with your hand, and shot all over the place. Glad yours is working well, and I'll allow for the fact I may have shot a lemon that was the exception, not the rule. |
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It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. Damn, a triumverate of 
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It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. Damn, a triumverate of We all have our opinions. Mine are based on having shot handguns for 40 years including the 10 I now own. Para quality has improved tremendously of late, and are now US made Colt's has been down since their financial woes of several years ago, although some are saying it has started to improve lately which I hope is true as I love Colts including my 45 year old Woodsman. As to the TRP/Pro, I made my point in another posting. 1/4 MOA at 25 yards off a rest isn't worth a grand to me. |
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It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. Damn, a triumverate of +1 Friends don't let friends buy Para or Taurus...ever. For your first 1911 I'd tell you to stick with something like a Colt or Springfield. I'd get the SA for the lifetime warranty but there is no reason not to buy a Colt if you find one with good tolerances for a good price. Kimber makes fine pistols as well, but their one year warranty always scares me off. EDIT: To make life easier, my suggestions in order based on $1200 budget: Springfield TRP (used) Springfield MC Operator (the MC has the steel frame, the lightweight has an aluminum one, I like steel frames) Colt Rail gun Kimber Warrior Frankly, you can't go wrong with any of those. |
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It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. Damn, a triumverate of We all have our opinions. Mine are based on having shot handguns for 40 years including the 10 I now own. Para quality has improved tremendously of late, and are now US made Colt's has been down since their financial woes of several years ago, although some are saying it has started to improve lately which I hope is true as I love Colts including my 45 year old Woodsman. As to the TRP/Pro, I made my point in another posting. 1/4 MOA at 25 yards off a rest isn't worth a grand to me. Gotta disagree with that. When someone like Ned Christansen says that the current Colts are some of the best ones they've ever made, I tend to believe him. IMO the current Colts (especially the 70's) are worth the slight premium as a stock pistol as they have the fewest MIM parts. I've owned two Paras in the past and they were absolute shit. Even if they've improved tremendously, that then puts them at about the level of SA, and I'd much rather have SA. |
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It depends on what you want and how much you're willing to spend. The Nighthawk at $2800 and the RIA at $400 both fit a need. If you want an out of the box, all set to go, I'd say the US made Springers, SIG GSRs and Paras are the way to go for around a grand to 1200. If you want good and cheap $4-600, the RIA tactical gets good reviews. Made in the PI and not my type of pistol. (I carry SIG GSRs.) In between, Brazilan made SAs, S&Ws and Kimbers are good for the price. Colts have the legend, not the quality anymore, and are universally overpriced. But there is something about the Pony on the slide...If money is no object, I like Nighthawk, Baer, Brown and Wilson. The Springfield TRP is in the middle at about $1400 between a SIG and a Baer, for example. Their 'Pro" is overpriced as hell when you consider it's nothing more than a TRP with a few tweaks. Lot's of choices. Handle and shoot as many as you can before you decide. Lot's of fun, too. Damn, a triumverate of We all have our opinions. Mine are based on having shot handguns for 40 years including the 10 I now own. Para quality has improved tremendously of late, and are now US made Colt's has been down since their financial woes of several years ago, although some are saying it has started to improve lately which I hope is true as I love Colts including my 45 year old Woodsman. As to the TRP/Pro, I made my point in another posting. 1/4 MOA at 25 yards off a rest isn't worth a grand to me. Gotta disagree with that. When someone like Ned Christansen says that the current Colts are some of the best ones they've ever made, I tend to believe him. IMO the current Colts (especially the 70's) are worth the slight premium as a stock pistol as they have the fewest MIM parts. I've owned two Paras in the past and they were absolute shit. Even if they've improved tremendously, that then puts them at about the level of SA, and I'd much rather have SA. Neither of my SIG GSRs have any MIM parts, although I think the newer ones have a few minor ones. MIM isn't bad, per se, but not using them would indicate higher quality. I have not shot a new Colt, just handled a few, but have friends who own ones bought over the past several years. I do hope they have improved their quality as Colts are and always will be the icon of 1911s. I have handled and shot several Paras since they have moved to the US and was impressed with how much they've improved from those made just about 5 years ago. The LDA has been well received ( http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/review/para-ord-745.htm), not my style, and their regular 1911s are tight and group well. Given the choice between a Para and a Springer, I'd take the Springer too. But Para does offer another option. I do think they are overpriced, however, and will have to come down to reestablish themselves in the current marketplace. |