[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why The 1911? (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 5/15/2010 3:59:00 PM EDT
| I come in peace. I am not here to start a fight. I'm just curious as to why 1911 shooters have an almost religious reverence for their pistols. On the range, and in training classes I have seen alot of 1911's go down. For such an expensive gun it seems to me that it should be much more reliable. So, with all the handgun choices out there, why do you prefer the 1911? |
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Colt 1911's have a soul. ETA: I used to think a 1911 needed to be drug through the Brownells catalog with a crap magnet. After making friends with a qualified 1911 smith, I learned how to set up, maintain and shoot a basically stock Colt 1911. My failure rate dropped to nothing and my enjoyment of owning and shooting a Colt 1911 doubled. Sights you can see, a trigger you can manage and a mild de-horn. |
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I haven't fallen for the hype that they are unreliable. I've found them to be just as reliable and/or more so than most. And personal experience has shown me that "others" aren't as reliable as the internet would tell me.
But anyway - I love them because of the ergos and the trigger. Haven't found anything better. |
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While I'll broaden it and say that most 1911's have soul, I will agree with BBossman. I like the fact that I can work on my gun, if necessary. I like the fact that it points where I want it. I like the fact that it works when I want or need it to. I like the trigger. I like the history that accompanies the design. I like the ergonomics. I like the most common round it fires (.45). I like that I can have it my way. I just like the darn things 
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For all the stories I've heard about 1911's failure rate, the only trouble I had is with knock offs. My two Colts have gone through several courses and uncounted rounds at the range and plinking in the mountains without a problem that wasn't the fault of crappy ammo (my reloads, my fault). My unmodified 1991A1 is the most accurate handgun I own. I know several other people with similar experiences.
If you get a cheap knockoff or a race gun and don't treat it as such, you're going to have problems. Why would I spend the same amount of money on something that doesn't fit my hand and I have to work twice as hard for it to be half as accurate? |
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It's got it's own heritage... it saw G.I. service for a lot of decades for a reason. John Moses Browning is the most prolific American gun designer of all time, and the simple fact that the 1911 is still as popular as it is, 99 years later, is a testament to how revolutionary his design was.
The limitless customization possibilities that you don't find with a polymer framed pistol, the comfort and feel, the accuracy, the tight fit, and the fact that it doesn't have a reputation for exploding are some key elements that have made me fond of the 1911. If you've seen a lot of 1911s fail, you've more likely seen a lot of people that are unaware of how to properly maintain and tune their 1911s. I've only had one issue ever, and it was due to me improperly cleaning my extractor when I was a 1911 n00b. Problem solved, and even my 93 year old Colt runs smoothly and flawlessly, even to this day. It was stated that Colt 1911's have a soul... I agree, but as was already stated, it goes beyond that. Most 1911's have a soul. They are almost always a direct representation of their owners, whether it be their finish, the grips, the accessories (sights, magwells, hammers, triggers, etc...) or any other customization that has been done... a 1911 becomes more than just a handgun the moment someone takes ownership of it. I am an American. I carry an American built, American designed handgun. The only polymer you'll find in my 1911s is the grips. I carry my 1911 just about everywhere I go, and it is an extension of me, and who I am. I have put hours upon hours into hand polishing it's stainless surface to a brilliant finish, and I get compliments on top of compliments about it, and my other 1911 pistols. My grandpa carried a 1911 and an M3A1 as an MP in Korea. My old man carried a 1911 in the Marine Corps for Vietnam. My uncle qualified with the 1911 when he entered into the Air Force... It's your dad's gun. It's your grandpa's gun. And now; it's my gun. |
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When I was in the Army I tried out for the Battalion Combat Pistol Team shooting an old 1911A1 that was so worn it rattled like a soup can full of nuts/bolts when you shook it. And I still was knocking down pop up silhouettes at 50 meters with it, time after time. My experience on the team convinced me to buy a personal pistol. I found a Colt 1911 at Clark Brothers in Warrenton and bought it for $195 (1978 or 79). I shot it for years and it was more accurate than the 1911A1's in the armory. Later I bought a Colt Combat Commander for a daily carry gun. I worked on that one myself and when the Chief and his daylight officer bought Colt Gold Cups I used to piss him off by outshooting him and his Gold Cup with my Combat Commander. A few years ago I ran across a deal I couldn't refuse and picked up a brand new stainless steel Series 80 Colt.
In all these years and thousands of rounds of factory and reloaded ammo I've had one jam. The old 1911 failed to chamber a "factory" reload that had a swelled case. They are fast, accurate, reliable and the cartridge gets the job done. |
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When I was in the Army I tried out for the Battalion Combat Pistol Team shooting an old 1911A1 that was so worn it rattled like a soup can full of nuts/bolts when you shook it. And I still was knocking down pop up silhouettes at 50 meters with it, time after time. My experience on the team convinced me to buy a personal pistol. I found a Colt 1911 at Clark Brothers in Warrenton and bought it for $195 (1978 or 79). I shot it for years and it was more accurate than the 1911A1's in the armory. Later I bought a Colt Combat Commander for a daily carry gun. I worked on that one myself and when the Chief and his daylight officer bought Colt Gold Cups I used to piss him off by outshooting him and his Gold Cup with my Combat Commander. A few years ago I ran across a deal I couldn't refuse and picked up a brand new stainless steel Series 80 Colt. In all these years and thousands of rounds of factory and reloaded ammo I've had one jam. The old 1911 failed to chamber a "factory" reload that had a swelled case. They are fast, accurate, reliable and the cartridge gets the job done. That's a good post |
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First of all, not all 1911's are created equal. Second, I would guess that if you took a look at the reason for the failures in the class it could be attributed to poor magazines, someone screwing with the gun, or they are running a micro 1911. The 1911 was designed with a 5" barrel and a 7 round magazine but people go out and buy cheap 8 or 10 round magazines and put them in their short 1911 and expect it to run. It takes a lot of spring effort to lift a stack of 230 grain bullets and adding more to the pile makes it even more difficult. Another issue, like BBossman said, folks purchase a 1911 and then think they are capable of adding all kinds of doodads to it. If you are going to screw with a gun then you should know what you are doing, this is especially true with a 1911.
You mention guns going down in class, and yes I have seen a few 1911's go down but in the last class I was in there was an XD that went down for the count (failure to reset and could not fix), an M&P9 pro that kept failing to reset, a Glock 22 that failed to lock back on several occasions, and a Sig P228 that jammed more than a Smucker's factory. My wife and I shot 1911's. Hers is a bone stock Dan Wesson CBOB and mine is a bone stock 4.25" Baer with aftermarket grips. She had one failure in 300 rounds which she said was her fault (I believe it was a poorly seated mag) and I had a a failure to feed when the follower in my mag got stuck. This class was taken under pretty dusty conditions and was hell on magazines. I love the 1911 but it is not for all shooters even though I think it is one of the best platforms for 45ACP. If you want a dead nuts reliable pistol that requires little maintenance then get a Glock 19 or 17 but you are going to have to spend a little more time with the Glock to learn how to shoot it. For most, 1911's are just so easy to shoot. ETA: The biggest reason I stick with the 1911 is that I have been shooting/carrying one for 16 years. I have tried others but I always come back to the platform that suits me best. |
| I have owned a few and never had one that was unreliable, You can make one that way in a hurry. All of mine have worked right out of the box. They have a perfect trigger, the point well and as other have said, they have a soul. I love Glocks but I cant seem them as anything more than a generic tool. |
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Well said, my friend. Well said. 
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I've had my S-70 since 1982. For a number of years, I only shot it once or twice a year. I'd have occasional stove pipes and FTF's. Well.....I finally could afford to "play" with it some more and I learned how to maintain properly. Since then, like a previous poster, the only malf's I've experienced have been related to a problem reloaded cartridge, or a poor choice in magazines.
I have other 1911's, and experienced similar issues infrequently. That said, I wouldn't trade my '11s for anything. Just love the platform, history, and everything that goes with that. On a side note.......I also have Hi-Powers (JMB's other design). In the last 5 years, and tens of thousands of rounds fired through them; I've never had one, not one, single malfunction. These are THE most reliable semi-auto handguns I've had the pleasure to own. I'm sure some of the newer designs (polymer frames and all) are reliable, but there's just something magic about the steel. |
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It has a long since become a classic firearm............Having served this country in two world wars and twice three times against the communists............it has a cult following............ First use against the communist was in 1917 when we went to russia to help the Czar against the Boshliveks, then Korea and Viet Nam. I got issued my first M1911A1 in 84' and built my first in 86' which I still carry when I'm home. I've carried a M1911A1 along with my issued M9 in Haiti in 95', Iraq in 03-06' and a M1911 (built in 1916) in 08'. When a plastic gun can go nearly 100 yrs and still soldier on without malfunction then I might listen. CD |
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It has a long since become a classic firearm............Having served this country in two world wars and twice three times against the communists............it has a cult following............ First use against the communist was in 1917 when we went to russia to help the Czar against the Boshliveks, then Korea and Viet Nam. I got issued my first M1911A1 in 84' and built my first in 86' which I still carry when I'm home. I've carried a M1911A1 along with my issued M9 in Haiti in 95', Iraq in 03-06' and a M1911 (built in 1916) in 08'. When a plastic gun can go nearly 100 yrs and still soldier on without malfunction then I might listen. CD Yes........my friend.......The Polar Bear Expedition................ |
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Do the Combat Commanders or Lightweight commanders have any issues? My Commander does not give me problems. It doesn't have any modifications that could negatively affect reliability. I use Colt or USGI magazines and don't feed it any bullet more exotic than 200g SWCs. |
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It doesn't get any simpler than this. If you have a 1911 that doesn't run, something is mechanically wrong with one of the parts. The design is near flawless in it's reliability, and no one has been able to come up with a trigger system that can be tuned to such a wide range of tastes. In addition, the pistol itself can be modified to fit just about any sized hand. As much as I love my HK45, if it didn't fit my hand there is not much I could do about it short of using a dremel. The biggest problem is there are a lot of haters out there who can't stand the fact that the 1911 has a devoted following, so any malfunction is an excuse to bash the design. Remember, it's a poor craftsman who blames his tools.
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Colt 1911's have a soul. ETA: I used to think a 1911 needed to be drug through the Brownells catalog with a crap magnet. After making friends with a qualified 1911 smith, I learned how to set up, maintain and shoot a basically stock Colt 1911. My failure rate dropped to nothing and my enjoyment of owning and shooting a Colt 1911 doubled. Sights you can see, a trigger you can manage and a mild de-horn. |
| I've never had a GI 1911, using 230 grain ball, crap out on me. I've got a scar on the web of my hand from hammer bite over the years, and the sights are kinda hard to see, but they've always worked. In many cases, I believe the problems begin with trendy modifications poorly done. According to Louis Awerbuck, many malfunctions can be traced to additional friction caused by things such as match bushings, tight slide to frame tolerances, full length guide rods, 8 round mags, and inadequate lubrication. I'm not saying that some very talented 'smiths aren't building guns that run with those mods, but there is a lot of junk out there. |
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I bought my Kimber because it looked cool, and my research at the time showed that it was a reputable company which produces pistols for various police and military outfits.
Last few times I took it shooting, it was completely unreliable... however, I have since replaced the Recoil Spring and that may fix much of the issues. Would I trust my life on it? Nope. The only firearms that never malfunctioned for me are my Colt Python, Remington 870, my AR-15, and my Glock 19. NEVER. After hundreds of rounds through each. |
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A good 1911 that is properly fit and well maintained won't have problems. If someone is having reliability issues one of those things is out of whack. If you take a tightly fit weapon and don't clean it, lubricate it and change springs as recommended then you will probably have issues. Otherwise, you should be GTG. Polymer guns are built to withstand a different level of abuse. The slide to frame fit is typically pretty loose compared to a decent 1911 and the polymer doesn't require as much attention as steel. I daily carry a kimber custom II that I have maintained and put night sights on and I trust my life to it without hesitation. ETA: I love the ergonomics and trigger pull of a 1911 above all else. |
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I bought my Kimber because it looked cool, and my research at the time showed that it was a reputable company which produces pistols for various police and military outfits. Last few times I took it shooting, it was completely unreliable... however, I have since replaced the Recoil Spring and that may fix much of the issues. Would I trust my life on it? Nope. The only firearms that never malfunctioned for me are my Colt Python, Remington 870, my AR-15, and my Glock 19. NEVER. After hundreds of rounds through each. I wouldn't either. 
Joking aside, 1911's are like an exotic sports car. When they're properly maintained and tuned by a competent gunsmith, they will run flawlessly... I don't own a gun that I wouldn't trust my life to (other than my GSG5 for plinking) because to me, if it's unreliable enough to trust in life & death situations... it's unreliable enough for someone else to own it. My Garand, 870, AR's or any of my 1911's are flawless, and I can pick any of them up without any question that it will properly function. I've had my problems with one of my 1911's (of 4) but it was a simple maintenance error that I have corrected and once again it operates flawlessly... |
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I think I am going to start researching 1911's. I just wish they were not so freaking expensive. They aren't expensive. I'll never understand why people insist 1911's are expensive. You can get a Springfield Loaded for the same price as a Glock 17 with night sights and the Loaded comes with night sights too. Sure, there are $2000+ 1911s out there, but you can start with a good $500 Springfield Mil-spec, which is cheaper than a comparable Glock. |
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I think I am going to start researching 1911's. I just wish they were not so freaking expensive. They aren't expensive. I'll never understand why people insist 1911's are expensive. You can get a Springfield Loaded for the same price as a Glock 17 with night sights and the Loaded comes with night sights too. Sure, there are $2000+ 1911s out there, but you can start with a good $500 Springfield Mil-spec, which is cheaper than a comparable Glock. Bingo. ...and there is no need to pull the pin and throw your 1911.
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1. It was my first handgun, fired a WWII surplus one when I was eleven.
2. I apparently have the hand that JMB designed the pistol for. A 1911A1 (arched housing essential for me) fits my hand like Excalibur fit Arthur. I've fired more types of handguns than I could easily remember, and nothing sits in my hand like an 'A1. 3. The older they are, the more soul they have. You may think I'm nuts, but if you pick up a USGI 1911A1, one that's passed through dozens of hands, there's a little something embedded in the metal. They FEEL broken in, aged, experienced. To me, those old pistols are like a heirloom sword would have been to a Viking. Like Combat Diver, I also had a USGI 1911A1 in Iraq during 2003. Mine wasn't supplied by the Army though. Still have it. 
And no, kids, don't go trying to violate General Order #1, I am the last guy I know who did it and got away with it. |
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1. It was my first handgun, fired a WWII surplus one when I was eleven. 2. I apparently have the hand that JMB designed the pistol for. A 1911A1 (arched housing essential for me) fits my hand like Excalibur fit Arthur. I've fired more types of handguns than I could easily remember, and nothing sits in my hand like an 'A1. 3. The older they are, the more soul they have. You may think I'm nuts, but if you pick up a USGI 1911A1, one that's passed through dozens of hands, there's a little something embedded in the metal. They FEEL broken in, aged, experienced. To me, those old pistols are like a heirloom sword would have been to a Viking. Like Combat Diver, I also had a USGI 1911A1 in Iraq during 2003. Mine wasn't supplied by the Army though. Still have it.
And no, kids, don't go trying to violate General Order #1, I am the last guy I know who did it and got away with it. What's General Order #1? |
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Quoted: ... So, with all the handgun choices out there, why do you prefer the 1911? I don't, really. I mean I prefer it for some things. If I knew I would be shooting one from a rest for accuracy at longer-than-average distances, I'd most certainly grab my custom longslide. If I were just going to be looking at one to admire it like a piece of art, I'd grab one of my prettier ones. I'd definitely opt for a 1911 if I ever shot a bowling pin match again. And I have an old KART rimfire-converted 1911 that is an absolute joy to shoot, any time. I do love my 1911s (I own several). They are classic/nostalgic, they fit my smallish hands very well indeed, they come in a good variety of calibers and configurations, and, as has been pointed out here already, well-made/-maintained ones can be very reliable. I enjoy shooting them and I actually shoot them quite well. All of that said, I CCW something else because it serves that role FOR ME (not necessarily anyone else) better. And use something else entirely for HD, again, because it suits me/my needs better. YMMV, and you'll never know until you try it.  |
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http://www.frontsight.com/Images/DamagedGlock21/Glock21FrameCloseUp_640x480.gif Theres just something about the way a solid hunk of metal feels... http://anthonybove.com/Colt%201911.jpg http://www.thegunzone.com/1911a1-kb.html |
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What's General Order #1? I don't know what it means to the hip kids, but General Order #1 was the order General MacArthur gave to the Japanese army to give up all their firearms after they signed the surrender. General Order #1 is the CENTCOM order forbidding, amongst other things, personally owned weapon/ammunition, booze, porn, fun, etc. |
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http://www.frontsight.com/Images/DamagedGlock21/Glock21FrameCloseUp_640x480.gif Theres just something about the way a solid hunk of metal feels... http://anthonybove.com/Colt%201911.jpg http://www.thegunzone.com/1911a1-kb.html Much more isolated with 1911's... and it's almost always due to a reloaded round being too hot, or a squib round. |
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I think I am going to start researching 1911's. I just wish they were not so freaking expensive. They aren't expensive. I'll never understand why people insist 1911's are expensive. You can get a Springfield Loaded for the same price as a Glock 17 with night sights and the Loaded comes with night sights too. Sure, there are $2000+ 1911s out there, but you can start with a good $500 Springfield Mil-spec, which is cheaper than a comparable Glock. where?.......a Glock 17 with night sights around here is in the 600.00 range...........Springer loaded is more than that..........and no nite sight............
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Thanks to everyone for the feedback. I think I am going to start researching 1911's. I just wish they were not so freaking expensive. They aren't expensive. I'll never understand why people insist 1911's are expensive. You can get a Springfield Loaded for the same price as a Glock 17 with night sights and the Loaded comes with night sights too. Sure, there are $2000+ 1911s out there, but you can start with a good $500 Springfield Mil-spec, which is cheaper than a comparable Glock. where?.......a Glock 17 with night sights around here is in the 600.00 range...........Springer loaded is more than that..........and no nite sight............
My dealer lists Glock 21s for $170 less than a Springfield Loaded. (both with night sights, $575 vs $745). |
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General Order #1 is the CENTCOM order forbidding, amongst other things, personally owned weapon/ammunition, booze, porn, fun, etc. In the 101st, we'd been told for years that if it was a "real combat deployment" we could bring our own pistols. As far as I know, I was the only guy in the battalion who had done it. I'd gotten advice on the subject from our previous first sergeant when we'd gotten the first warnings of the Iraq mission. So really, I thought the "no pistols" order in the pre-deployment brief was just for public consumption. I kept it concealed well, with a fully loaded M4 for a primary weapon. And there were a couple times I was really glad I had it with me. |
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Thanks, Rod. Didn't seem like a big deal at the time. Guys like Combat Diver are the real professionals, I didn't even make it to twenty. Yeah, but some of us never went in... some days I regret it, but I have a solid career now... still roll around the guard idea... too bad they probably wouldn't let me qualify with my AR15 and 1911, though!
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