[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 10mm vs 45acp power difference (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 9/27/2009 10:54:23 AM EDT
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Considering a new 1911 pistol and trying to decide between 10mm or 45 .
Remington factory loads 10mm 180gr 1150 fps, 45+p 185gr 1140 fps 10mm +10fps Hornady factory loads 10mm200 gr 1050fps, 45+p 200 gr 1055 fps 45 +5fps Corbon factory loads 10mm 165 gr 1250 fps 45+p 165 gr 1250 fps same Double Tap 10mm 230 gr 1040 fps 45+p 230gr 1010fps 10mm + 30 fps Buffalo Boar 10mm 180 gr 1350 45+p 185 gr 1150 10mm +200 45 + 5grs in weight I compared the +p loads because I'm comparing maximum loadings available in each caliber.I did not include other factory loadings because 10mm is not manufactured by Speer,magtech or Black hills.Another thing to consider is that the 45 cal bullet creates a bigger hole and is a lower pressure round, meaning less recoil and wear. What am I missing ,appreciate any feedback .Just want to be sure before I drop 1500.00 on a pistol. Thanks |
| The 45ACP was developed to kill horses used by mounted soldiers.. some claim it was made to kill drug crazed South Americans... Regardless the 45ACP has an effective kill power for whats threatening you. I've never understood the need for 45+P or the 10mm, except to say it fills a need for the power junkies. I can say from experience I don't appreciate recoil on 45+P compared to ACP. It's just not as manageable... I've got a XD357Sig.. I don't carry because of shoot through concerns. I'd voice same concerns for 10mm. I know FBI made a case for it but they have deeper pockets for defense lawyers than I have and chances are when they used it shoot throughs might have been a two for one. |
| Then again, some say the ,45 ACP was designed to kill Moro tribesmen in the Philipine Islands. I have both and reload for both. As stated above, for pure power, its the 10mm, handsdown. FYI, the 10mm is really moving, so be sure to use jacketed bullets or severe leading will occur. |
| Double taps 230 gr loading is within 30 fps of each other. The 185 and 180 gr load are within 75 fps.The 135 10mm load is smoking at 1600 fps but 45 is not available in that bullet weight ,if it were I bet the velocity would also be high.A 357 sig load 10 grs lighter hits 1450fps.When bullet weights are equal I just don't see 30fps making a big difference.At 15 yards shooting a deer why is 10mm ok and 45 not. |
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Do you already have a 45 1911? If so I'd consider the 10mm, if not I'd go with the 45.
10mm is a fun round although it is not that easy to find. Have 3 10mm guns and really enjoy shooting them. I have a glock 20fs, colt delta elite(one of the newer ones since they started making them again), and a smith and wesson 610 6 inch revolver. |
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The 45ACP was developed to kill horses used by mounted soldiers.. some claim it was made to kill drug crazed South Americans... Regardless the 45ACP has an effective kill power for whats threatening you. I've never understood the need for 45+P or the 10mm, except to say it fills a need for the power junkies. I can say from experience I don't appreciate recoil on 45+P compared to ACP. It's just not as manageable... I've got a XD357Sig.. I don't carry because of shoot through concerns. I'd voice same concerns for 10mm. I know FBI made a case for it but they have deeper pockets for defense lawyers than I have and chances are when they used it shoot throughs might have been a two for one. I don't recall when I've read a post filled with so much inaccurate information.......................... 
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The 45ACP was developed to kill horses used by mounted soldiers.. some claim it was made to kill drug crazed South Americans... Regardless the 45ACP has an effective kill power for whats threatening you. I've never understood the need for 45+P or the 10mm, except to say it fills a need for the power junkies. I can say from experience I don't appreciate recoil on 45+P compared to ACP. It's just not as manageable... I've got a XD357Sig.. I don't carry because of shoot through concerns. I'd voice same concerns for 10mm. I know FBI made a case for it but they have deeper pockets for defense lawyers than I have and chances are when they used it shoot throughs might have been a two for one. I don't recall when I've read a post filled with so much inaccurate information.......................... Well Bob I'm always up for a learning experience. Pride and Ego aside please correct me where needed. It's usually the only opportunity I get to learn is when I'm corrected. Your points would be much appreciated.. 
ETA: I stand corrected for geography... moro indians vs south americans... point taken. As for Calvary mounts heres a paste http://books.google.com/books?id=lBynVCWJ230C&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=45acp+horse+mount&source=bl&ots=1CEcX8x75z&sig=pwxpwrEKaTHjd7GTkaGZuIH4qbw&hl=en&ei=CCfASqv_JZHl8QaJrLS4AQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=7#v=onepage&q=&f=false I'd still like to hear more from your perspective. |
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Double taps 230 gr loading is within 30 fps of each other. The 185 and 180 gr load are within 75 fps.The 135 10mm load is smoking at 1600 fps but 45 is not available in that bullet weight ,if it were I bet the velocity would also be high.A 357 sig load 10 grs lighter hits 1450fps.When bullet weights are equal I just don't see 30fps making a big difference.At 15 yards shooting a deer why is 10mm ok and 45 not. +1 I recently investigated this because I was interested in 400 corbon, I discovered that 45acp w/ the lightest bullets (180-185) was exactly the same velocity as 400 or 10mm in the same weight (the heaviest bullets for that caliber). I came away with the oppinion that a 10mm/400 corbon is only good if you need a flat tragectory. Shooting prairy dogs with a 1911, anyone? 
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The OP is stating that the 10mm rounds are very close to the 45+p rounds. why is everyone making the claim that the 10mm "is pure power" or "really moving" when the .45+p is nearly identical in speed and bullet weight? just doesn't seem to compute.  +1 OP did this nice little analysis where it appears that the 10mm is superfluous when you can get the same performance from a 45acp. So 10mm fans, what are we missing here? (note: I do think that a Buffalo Bore 10mm 200 gr moving at 1150fps versus a 45acp+P 200gr moving at 950 is pretty significant. That's 20% faster which is quite a lot.) |
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10mm close to .45?
Most "real" 10mm ammo has more energy at 100 yards as .45 at the muzzle. Also it is possible to hit something at 100 yards with a 10mm and very difficult with a .45 I am not bashing .45. I carry the round during the summer, but saying its equal? Not even close. Is there a .45 round with 750 ft/lbs of energy? Nope Besides to get .45 "close" to 10mm it has to be a +p rating. Lots of .45s wear at a faster rate with +p ammo. Most 10mm handguns do well with full hot house loads. If you dont reload, 10mm can get costly. It also sucks for those with weak wrists. Waiting for my new Delta, wish I could justify a Wilson. I will always own and carry a 10. |
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10mm close to .45? Most "real" 10mm ammo has more energy at 100 yards as .45 at the muzzle. Also it is possible to hit something at 100 yards with a 10mm and very difficult with a .45 I am not bashing .45. I carry the round during the summer, but saying its equal? Not even close. Is there a .45 round with 750 ft/lbs of energy? Nope Besides to get .45 "close" to 10mm it has to be a +p rating. Lots of .45s wear at a faster rate with +p ammo. Most 10mm handguns do well with full hot house loads. If you dont reload, 10mm can get costly. It also sucks for those with weak wrists. Waiting for my new Delta, wish I could justify a Wilson. I will always own and carry a 10. okay...and how exactly is a Delta or Wilson 10mm different from a .45ACP Colt or Wilson using +P's along with the proper spring-rates, etc.? We all know that energy and velocity from a handgun are just numbers. What really matters is crush-cavity (permanent) and penetration. Find me a 10mm...any 10mm you want that penetrates more than an inch or 2 deeper than a .45ACP with = or better expansion and I will believe there is some merit here. Been there/done that with this discussion. I will save you some time, the BEST numbers found were, I believe, around 1.0" exp. and 14" pen. from Double-Tap in 10mm. The .45 ended up within a tenth or so of expanded diameter and about half an inch shy in penetration. Not enough to say one is superior over the other imho. Also, at 100 yards, the drop difference is around 10" at the most, usually around 2-5" if you compare "best" loads from each caliber. I would like to see someone justify a pistol round over another pistol round based on a 5" trajectory difference at 100 yards. So what are you gaining? More explosive performance on water-mellons and milk jugs, more "bang" (fun on the range, not so fun in the house/car/wherever if you NEED it). I think loaded with hard-cast projectiles, the 10mm would be superior on bear or automobile, but that is about the end of the concessions I am willing to make except in the "fun factor" area, and then it can be argued that finding ammo to shoot is a pain and that evens it out...but not really, because I E-order all my ammo anyways and can find anything pretty much. |
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10mm close to .45? Most "real" 10mm ammo has more energy at 100 yards as .45 at the muzzle. Also it is possible to hit something at 100 yards with a 10mm and very difficult with a .45 I am not bashing .45. I carry the round during the summer, but saying its equal? Not even close. Is there a .45 round with 750 ft/lbs of energy? Nope Besides to get .45 "close" to 10mm it has to be a +p rating. Lots of .45s wear at a faster rate with +p ammo. Most 10mm handguns do well with full hot house loads. If you dont reload, 10mm can get costly. It also sucks for those with weak wrists. Waiting for my new Delta, wish I could justify a Wilson. I will always own and carry a 10. okay...and how exactly is a Delta or Wilson 10mm different from a .45ACP Colt or Wilson using +P's along with the proper spring-rates, etc.? We all know that energy and velocity from a handgun are just numbers. What really matters is crush-cavity (permanent) and penetration. Find me a 10mm...any 10mm you want that penetrates more than an inch or 2 deeper than a .45ACP with = or better expansion and I will believe there is some merit here. Been there/done that with this discussion. I will save you some time, the BEST numbers found were, I believe, around 1.0" exp. and 14" pen. from Double-Tap in 10mm. The .45 ended up within a tenth or so of expanded diameter and about half an inch shy in penetration. Not enough to say one is superior over the other imho. Also, at 100 yards, the drop difference is around 10" at the most, usually around 2-5" if you compare "best" loads from each caliber. I would like to see someone justify a pistol round over another pistol round based on a 5" trajectory difference at 100 yards. So what are you gaining? More explosive performance on water-mellons and milk jugs, more "bang" (fun on the range, not so fun in the house/car/wherever if you NEED it). I think loaded with hard-cast projectiles, the 10mm would be superior on bear or automobile, but that is about the end of the concessions I am willing to make except in the "fun factor" area, and then it can be argued that finding ammo to shoot is a pain and that evens it out...but not really, because I E-order all my ammo anyways and can find anything pretty much. Like I stated, I was not bashing .45. However one the reasons why I and many others love the 10 is it is very versatile. The 10 can be loaded or purchaced in .40 pressure rounds for target/self defence rounds and can be loaded up to to kill large 4 legged predators or game. Again, my normal summer carry 1911 is loaded loaded with standard pressure Gold Dots. I was unaware that energy was not relevant, 25 to 30% more? Why does my 300 RUM outperform 308 with the same bullet? Not numbers, effects. You would be surprized what 600fps does. Poeple who are 308 fanboys say same type of things "you dont need anymore power/velocity". I disagree, and results do also. I have never had to use my carry weapon, and pray that I never will so I cannot state first hand knowledge about wounds from a 10 or .45, but I have seen the difference energy/velocity make on game. Is there a perfect round/caiber for every situation? Not that I know of. Does anyone need the power or potential of a 10mm? Most wont. For me facing a bear, cougar or in my neck of the woods, a 200+lb wolf I prefer the most powerful, practical auto loading cartridge out there, the 10mm.  (obviously I would rather have a rifle, but that just isnt practical all the time).
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Well Bob I'm always up for a learning experience. Pride and Ego aside please correct me where needed. It's usually the only opportunity I get to learn is when I'm corrected. Your points would be much appreciated Well, you've already corrected one of your points with the Moro's........................ The US Army specified a ".45" caliber handgun with the new design. John Browning (or one of his assistants) came up with the .45acp after some brainstorming/trial & error. Killing horses never entered the equation from anything *I* have EVER read. It was thought the .45 Colt recoil was managable FROM horseback (from the old Colt SA's) & thus wanted to stick with that as it was proven on the drug-addled Moro warriors in the Spanish American War of 1898. As for the "power junkies" whom prefer 10mm, that too is rather, er, uhm, well, silly. .45acp does NOT penetrate car doors (paper thin modern gas miser car doors excepted) & has been documented with the Bonnie & Clyde days of yore. In fact, there's an article in this month's American Handgunner about that very thing. Clyde Barrow survived a shootout due to the lack of door penetration. The reason *I* switched to 10mm was because of an incident *I* had with .45acp getting grossly deformed from shooting thru a front windshield at a guy whom was attempting to run me down with his car. I went to 10mm after some testing on my own on junk vehicles & have never looked back. Now, are there 10mm owners whom shoot nothing but hopped-up Cor-Bon loads? No doubt. But 90%+ of we 10mm carriers use commercial loadings because of the ballastics & nohting else. No ego's, no bad-assed wanna be's, no armchair warrior mentality is involved, IMO. This is not to say I don't still carry .45acp, as I quite often do. But day in & day out, my Glock 20SF is what goes with me on a daily basis. I don't fear over penetration, I don't fear an over zealous DA. A shot thru the arm with a .45acp will kill someone behind the perp just as dead as if one shot them on purpose, caliber won't matter at that point, IMO. One can debate the FBI debacle until the cows come home, IMO. My .o2 |
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10mm close to .45? Most "real" 10mm ammo has more energy at 100 yards as .45 at the muzzle. Also it is possible to hit something at 100 yards with a 10mm and very difficult with a .45 I am not bashing .45. I carry the round during the summer, but saying its equal? Not even close. Is there a .45 round with 750 ft/lbs of energy? Nope Besides to get .45 "close" to 10mm it has to be a +p rating. Lots of .45s wear at a faster rate with +p ammo. Most 10mm handguns do well with full hot house loads. If you dont reload, 10mm can get costly. It also sucks for those with weak wrists. Waiting for my new Delta, wish I could justify a Wilson. I will always own and carry a 10. okay...and how exactly is a Delta or Wilson 10mm different from a .45ACP Colt or Wilson using +P's along with the proper spring-rates, etc.? We all know that energy and velocity from a handgun are just numbers. What really matters is crush-cavity (permanent) and penetration. Find me a 10mm...any 10mm you want that penetrates more than an inch or 2 deeper than a .45ACP with = or better expansion and I will believe there is some merit here. Been there/done that with this discussion. I will save you some time, the BEST numbers found were, I believe, around 1.0" exp. and 14" pen. from Double-Tap in 10mm. The .45 ended up within a tenth or so of expanded diameter and about half an inch shy in penetration. Not enough to say one is superior over the other imho. Also, at 100 yards, the drop difference is around 10" at the most, usually around 2-5" if you compare "best" loads from each caliber. I would like to see someone justify a pistol round over another pistol round based on a 5" trajectory difference at 100 yards. So what are you gaining? More explosive performance on water-mellons and milk jugs, more "bang" (fun on the range, not so fun in the house/car/wherever if you NEED it). I think loaded with hard-cast projectiles, the 10mm would be superior on bear or automobile, but that is about the end of the concessions I am willing to make except in the "fun factor" area, and then it can be argued that finding ammo to shoot is a pain and that evens it out...but not really, because I E-order all my ammo anyways and can find anything pretty much. Like I stated, I was not bashing .45. However one the reasons why I and many others love the 10 is it is very versatile. The 10 can be loaded or purchaced in .40 pressure rounds for target/self defence rounds and can be loaded up to to kill large 4 legged predators or game. Again, my normal summer carry 1911 is loaded loaded with standard pressure Gold Dots. I was unaware that energy was not relevant, 25 to 30% more? Why does my 300 RUM outperform 308 with the same bullet? Not numbers, effects. You would be surprized what 600fps does. Poeple who are 308 fanboys say same type of things "you dont need anymore power/velocity". I disagree, and results do also. I have never had to use my carry weapon, and pray that I never will so I cannot state first hand knowledge about wounds from a 10 or .45, but I have seen the difference energy/velocity make on game. Is there a perfect round/caiber for every situation? Not that I know of. Does anyone need the power or potential of a 10mm? Most wont. For me facing a bear, cougar or in my neck of the woods, a 200+lb wolf I prefer the most powerful, practical auto loading cartridge out there, the 10mm. (obviously I would rather have a rifle, but that just isnt practical all the time).
What exactly does that "600fps" extra give you? At under 2-2200fps, it doesn't matter a hill of beans unless it leads to larger expansion or deeper penetration, which as I already stated, apparently it does not in any measurable way. As to car-doors, yes, my RA45T load will through/through the door on a mid 80's crown vic police car, at least during my casual testing. |
| The OP is 45+P vs 10mm, so I'll get back to that so this tread isn't hijacked. The history of the 45 cartridge starts with the 45LC. It's ability to make a " Superflous " wound was desired in bringing down a horse mounted soldier and the Army wasn't going to give up that ability with the semi-auto. The 45 round cavitates creating a larger wound according to everything "I've" read. My concerns for the 10mm are still the same. Shoot through. You've got a small diameter bullet traveling at a high speed. So much so that a 135 grain jhp can be loaded to 1435 fps. If charging cars are your concern it's your round. If threatened in a crowded grocery store or shopping mall I think the 45ACP in a 1911 format is the safer choice of the two. |
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The OP is 45+P vs 10mm, so I'll get back to that so this tread isn't hijacked. The history of the 45 cartridge starts with the 45LC. It's ability to make a " Superflous " wound was desired in bringing down a horse mounted soldier and the Army wasn't going to give up that ability with the semi-auto. The 45 round cavitates creating a larger wound according to everything "I've" read. My concerns for the 10mm are still the same. Shoot through. You've got a small diameter bullet traveling at a high speed. So much so that a 135 grain jhp can be loaded to 1435 fps. If charging cars are your concern it's your round. If threatened in a crowded grocery store or shopping mall I think the 45ACP in a 1911 format is the safer choice of the two. 1600 fps! 
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10mm close to .45? Most "real" 10mm ammo has more energy at 100 yards as .45 at the muzzle. Also it is possible to hit something at 100 yards with a 10mm and very difficult with a .45 I am not bashing .45. I carry the round during the summer, but saying its equal? Not even close. Is there a .45 round with 750 ft/lbs of energy? Nope Besides to get .45 "close" to 10mm it has to be a +p rating. Lots of .45s wear at a faster rate with +p ammo. Most 10mm handguns do well with full hot house loads. If you dont reload, 10mm can get costly. It also sucks for those with weak wrists. Waiting for my new Delta, wish I could justify a Wilson. I will always own and carry a 10. okay...and how exactly is a Delta or Wilson 10mm different from a .45ACP Colt or Wilson using +P's along with the proper spring-rates, etc.? We all know that energy and velocity from a handgun are just numbers. What really matters is crush-cavity (permanent) and penetration. Find me a 10mm...any 10mm you want that penetrates more than an inch or 2 deeper than a .45ACP with = or better expansion and I will believe there is some merit here. Been there/done that with this discussion. I will save you some time, the BEST numbers found were, I believe, around 1.0" exp. and 14" pen. from Double-Tap in 10mm. The .45 ended up within a tenth or so of expanded diameter and about half an inch shy in penetration. Not enough to say one is superior over the other imho. Also, at 100 yards, the drop difference is around 10" at the most, usually around 2-5" if you compare "best" loads from each caliber. I would like to see someone justify a pistol round over another pistol round based on a 5" trajectory difference at 100 yards. So what are you gaining? More explosive performance on water-mellons and milk jugs, more "bang" (fun on the range, not so fun in the house/car/wherever if you NEED it). I think loaded with hard-cast projectiles, the 10mm would be superior on bear or automobile, but that is about the end of the concessions I am willing to make except in the "fun factor" area, and then it can be argued that finding ammo to shoot is a pain and that evens it out...but not really, because I E-order all my ammo anyways and can find anything pretty much. Like I stated, I was not bashing .45. However one the reasons why I and many others love the 10 is it is very versatile. The 10 can be loaded or purchaced in .40 pressure rounds for target/self defence rounds and can be loaded up to to kill large 4 legged predators or game. Again, my normal summer carry 1911 is loaded loaded with standard pressure Gold Dots. I was unaware that energy was not relevant, 25 to 30% more? Why does my 300 RUM outperform 308 with the same bullet? Not numbers, effects. You would be surprized what 600fps does. Poeple who are 308 fanboys say same type of things "you dont need anymore power/velocity". I disagree, and results do also. I have never had to use my carry weapon, and pray that I never will so I cannot state first hand knowledge about wounds from a 10 or .45, but I have seen the difference energy/velocity make on game. Is there a perfect round/caiber for every situation? Not that I know of. Does anyone need the power or potential of a 10mm? Most wont. For me facing a bear, cougar or in my neck of the woods, a 200+lb wolf I prefer the most powerful, practical auto loading cartridge out there, the 10mm. (obviously I would rather have a rifle, but that just isnt practical all the time).
What exactly does that "600fps" extra give you? At under 2-2200fps, it doesn't matter a hill of beans unless it leads to larger expansion or deeper penetration, which as I already stated, apparently it does not in any measurable way. As to car-doors, yes, my RA45T load will through/through the door on a mid 80's crown vic police car, at least during my casual testing. At what velocity does 60% more start to "give you" something more? The last poster pointed out fear of overpenetration, valid concern. Your point is .45=10mm, not true. |
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So much so that a 135 grain jhp can be loaded to 1435 fps. I would be willing to be an internet $1 that the vast, vast majority of 10mm CCWers are not using that loading. I myself use the 180gr loads @ around 1100/1200f/p/s. While I do grant your point on overpenetration, I don't believe this is an issue with the heavier bullets & one still gets the car door/windshield penetration performance that's vastly superior to the .45acp loading. (I wish to add this is in standard loading & not +P, which *I* have no experience with.) |
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Considering a new 1911 pistol and trying to decide between 10mm or 45 . Remington factory loads 10mm 180gr 1150 fps, 45+p 185gr 1140 fps 10mm +10fps Hornady factory loads 10mm200 gr 1050fps, 45+p 200 gr 1055 fps 45 +5fps Corbon factory loads 10mm 165 gr 1250 fps 45+p 165 gr 1250 fps same Double Tap 10mm 230 gr 1040 fps 45+p 230gr 1010fps 10mm + 30 fps Buffalo Boar 10mm 180 gr 1350 45+p 185 gr 1150 10mm +200 45 + 5grs in weight If you look at last comparison, The 10mm has 730 ft lbs the 45 only 540 Yes the 10mm is my choice for hunting and defence. There is nothing wrong with a 45, (I own two) but the 10 mm has downed a few coyotes on the run, at distance, for me. One shot each, rolled them up. I reload 180 XTP s at 1375 fps.,which still has over 600ft lbs at 50 yards. Much more than any 45 load at the muzzle. |
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The 45ACP was developed to kill horses used by mounted soldiers.. some claim it was made to kill drug crazed South Americans... Regardless the 45ACP has an effective kill power for whats threatening you. I've never understood the need for 45+P or the 10mm, except to say it fills a need for the power junkies. I can say from experience I don't appreciate recoil on 45+P compared to ACP. It's just not as manageable... I've got a XD357Sig.. I don't carry because of shoot through concerns. I'd voice same concerns for 10mm. I know FBI made a case for it but they have deeper pockets for defense lawyers than I have and chances are when they used it shoot throughs might have been a two for one. I can say the 10mm will kill a horse so very well (Win. 175 gr ST, think thats the weight). Never got a chance to put a horse down with a .45 and that is what I carry and think it would do the job too. |
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The 45ACP was developed to kill horses used by mounted soldiers.. some claim it was made to kill drug crazed South Americans... Regardless the 45ACP has an effective kill power for whats threatening you. I've never understood the need for 45+P or the 10mm, except to say it fills a need for the power junkies. I can say from experience I don't appreciate recoil on 45+P compared to ACP. It's just not as manageable... I've got a XD357Sig.. I don't carry because of shoot through concerns. I'd voice same concerns for 10mm. I know FBI made a case for it but they have deeper pockets for defense lawyers than I have and chances are when they used it shoot throughs might have been a two for one. I can say the 10mm will kill a horse so very well (Win. 175 gr ST, think thats the weight). Never got a chance to put a horse down with a .45 and that is what I carry and think it would do the job too. Well, I've put down a ~2,000 lbs. black angus bull with a 45. He dropped like a brick. Of course our butcher puts down cattle all day with a .22 magnum and all the other butchers I've known used a 22lr.
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Quoted: 10mm close to .45? Most "real" 10mm ammo has more energy at 100 yards as .45 at the muzzle. Also it is possible to hit something at 100 yards with a 10mm and very difficult with a .45 If you're going to post something, at least make sure it's not bullshit. I am not bashing .45. I carry the round during the summer, but saying its equal? Not even close. Is there a .45 round with 750 ft/lbs of energy? Nope Besides to get .45 "close" to 10mm it has to be a +p rating. Lots of .45s wear at a faster rate with +p ammo. Most 10mm handguns do well with full hot house loads. What's wrong with a +P rating? Even at +P pressures, the .45 ACP is STILL well under normal 10mm pressures. If you dont reload, 10mm can get costly. It also sucks for those with weak wrists. Waiting for my new Delta, wish I could justify a Wilson. I will always own and carry a 10. Besides, if we're brining in the boutique brands of ammo and handloads, I'll bring in the .45 Super, which equals the 10mm capbilities, and can use heavier bullets as well. I like the 10mm, and I'm considering purchasing one, but some of you 10mm fanboys are as bad as Jehovah's Witnesses.  The US Army specified a ".45" caliber handgun with the new design. John Browning (or one of his assistants) came up with the .45acp after some brainstorming/trial & error. Killing horses never entered the equation from anything *I* have EVER read. It was thought the .45 Colt recoil was managable FROM horseback (from the old Colt SA's) & thus wanted to stick with that as it was proven on the drug-addled Moro warriors in the Spanish American War of 1898. I think he's referring to the idea that the .45 Colt was intended to be able to shoot through a horse at 100 yards. As I understand it, when the Army looked for an automatic pistol cartridge, they wanted a round that would closely mirror the .45 Colt that had worked so well. |
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I just ordered a Wilson Combat CQB Elite in 10mm. I also have a SA Loaded in .45 that I can shoot very accurately with. Why did I decide to drop a ludicrous amount of coin on a handgun in a weird caliber. I wanted to...thats why.
I also know I can shoot a 155 grain projectile out of a 1911 at .357 magnum velocities and everyone ought to know how badass that is. I also like shooting it out of my g-29...and I reload.
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So much so that a 135 grain jhp can be loaded to 1435 fps. I would be willing to be an internet $1 that the vast, vast majority of 10mm CCWers are not using that loading. I myself use the 180gr loads @ around 1100/1200f/p/s. While I do grant your point on overpenetration, I don't believe this is an issue with the heavier bullets & one still gets the car door/windshield penetration performance that's vastly superior to the .45acp loading. (I wish to add this is in standard loading & not +P, which *I* have no experience with.) My point has been, Bob. I see no need for either the 10mm or the 45+P in a carry situation. OP piece is asking 10mm or 45+p. So you don't get to opt out with. I don't believe this is an issue with the heavier bullets & one still gets the car door/windshield penetration performance that's vastly superior to the .45acp loading. (I wish to add this is in standard loading & not +P, which *I* have no experience with.) The point has been made by others that you can buy a +P having same ballistics as the 10mm your quoting ballistics on and make a larger (superflous) wound. Avoiding potential for shoot through. I think Spook410 made comment, " so 10mm guys what are we missing here...." and we already know what that response is.... 1600fps
That takes me back to my original point of " pure power junkie ". Then a good debate would be for the 10mm is that it can " roll " a coyote on a run. That makes a good point for the 10mm for hunting and your " charging cars ". But also establishes my point of being a liability in a crowded grocery store or shopping mall.... I think the ten is a neat round but you have to respect what the opinion piece is asking for. " 10mm or 45+P for carry " Which brings me back to.. having shorted the Moro Indians their dues... full circle to my original statement. I don't like either for carry. |
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IMHO the .45 is pure perfection. It has been said the FBI dropped the 10mm due to over penetration and why it's entry teams have gone back to the .45. JMB had it right the first time and +P's are fine for the added oomph. The point is I want my round to stay in the body not go through. The .45 has defended me twice and done it's job to the nth. Its cheaper, effective and more readily available. If I want more ass I drop in the .460 kit and hunt bear if I want. Same gun, same mags and all the power of a +P 44 magnum. I'll stay with my 1911's. My opinion comes from 40 years of usage, not a book or internet whoop dedo. |
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Quoted: I thought everyone said stay away from 185 gr loads for 45acp? They are about on par with the 135ish 10mm loads, that is, too light for caliber for self-defense and are most likely to underpenetrate or break up. I'm sure the lightweights are fine for things like rolling coyotes, as mentioned a few posts up. |
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The OP is stating that the 10mm rounds are very close to the 45+p rounds. why is everyone making the claim that the 10mm "is pure power" or "really moving" when the .45+p is nearly identical in speed and bullet weight? just doesn't seem to compute. +1 OP did this nice little analysis where it appears that the 10mm is superfluous when you can get the same performance from a 45acp. So 10mm fans, what are we missing here? (note: I do think that a Buffalo Bore 10mm 200 gr moving at 1150fps versus a 45acp+P 200gr moving at 950 is pretty significant. That's 20% faster which is quite a lot.) Other then Norma I do not believe any major ammunition manufacturer has loaded the 10mm AUTO to full potential. Which is 1200+fps with 200gr bullets. Possibly even faster with new powders. The reason is most shooters can not handle a combat pistol with recoil inherent with such performance. Additionally, very few of the factory guns chamber in 10mm AUTO will have much of a service life when eating such loads exclusively. |
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The lighter 10mm loads replicate the (rightfully) famed 125 JHP .357 load. The standard .357 load in 158 grain is going around 1200FPS. The 10mm 150 grain is moving along at a cool 1400FPS (give or take). I know this is a .45+p vs 10mm debate and am sorry to hijack but that says alot to me. Less recoil is involved shooting the lighter projectiles and 150grain loadings would be pretty awesome for defense. I also routinely shoot pretty hot 180 grain loads out of my compact g-29 and it's not a big deal. If you fear recoil you shouldn't be shooting +p's out of a 1911 either.
iirc correctly (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the +p desognation is really just a made up designation to give a name to loads that are loaded to the max saami specs allowed. Meaning a +p load is really just a max load from a .45 and not some super special extra powerful round. Comments? PS I'll say it again...I'm getting the 10mm because I want one, it's very accurate (for me) and it's more better with extra awesome.
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The lighter 10mm loads replicate the (rightfully) famed 125 JHP .357 load. The standard .357 load in 158 grain is going around 1200FPS. The 10mm 150 grain is moving along at a cool 1400FPS (give or take). I know this is a .45+p vs 10mm debate and am sorry to hijack but that says alot to me. Less recoil is involved shooting the lighter projectiles and 150grain loadings would be pretty awesome for defense. I also routinely shoot pretty hot 180 grain loads out of my compact g-29 and it's not a big deal. If you fear recoil you shouldn't be shooting +p's out of a 1911 either. iirc correctly (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the +p desognation is really just a made up designation to give a name to loads that are loaded to the max saami specs allowed. Meaning a +p load is really just a max load from a .45 and not some super special extra powerful round. Comments? PS I'll say it again...I'm getting the 10mm because I want one, it's very accurate (for me) and it's more better with extra awesome. I think "+P" only referes to chamber pressure, wich usually means velocity, but not always. I've read reloading manuals where a regular load was faster than one that was a "+P", but the +P created way more pressure. |
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The lighter 10mm loads replicate the (rightfully) famed 125 JHP .357 load. The standard .357 load in 158 grain is going around 1200FPS. The 10mm 150 grain is moving along at a cool 1400FPS (give or take). I know this is a .45+p vs 10mm debate and am sorry to hijack but that says alot to me. Less recoil is involved shooting the lighter projectiles and 150grain loadings would be pretty awesome for defense. I also routinely shoot pretty hot 180 grain loads out of my compact g-29 and it's not a big deal. If you fear recoil you shouldn't be shooting +p's out of a 1911 either. iirc correctly (someone correct me if I'm wrong) the +p desognation is really just a made up designation to give a name to loads that are loaded to the max saami specs allowed. Meaning a +p load is really just a max load from a .45 and not some super special extra powerful round. Comments? PS I'll say it again...I'm getting the 10mm because I want one, it's very accurate (for me) and it's more better with extra awesome. I think "+P" only referes to chamber pressure, wich usually means velocity, but not always. I've read reloading manuals where a regular load was faster than one that was a "+P", but the +P created way more pressure. SAAMI Maximum Pressures .45 ACP = 21,000psi .45 ACP +P = 23,000psi 10mm Auto = 37,500psi .40 SW = 35,000psi 9mm Luger = 35,000psi 9mm Luger +P = 38,500psi .357 SIG = 40,000psi To add to the quoted red text, pressure and velocity are linked, but one can often improve velocity by selecting the optimal powder for the cartridge and projectile combination. The most illustrative example is the 9mm Luger. Nominally the Luger launches a 115gr bullet at 1150 to 1200fps from a 4" barrel. This is basically the original benchmark, as fast as they could go with that weight bullet at 35kpsi. Vihta Vuori 3N38, allows one to load 9mm Luger (non +P) to 1200fps with 147gr bullets. |
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The 45ACP was developed to kill horses used by mounted soldiers.. some claim it was made to kill drug crazed South Americans... Regardless the 45ACP has an effective kill power for whats threatening you. I've never understood the need for 45+P or the 10mm, except to say it fills a need for the power junkies. I can say from experience I don't appreciate recoil on 45+P compared to ACP. It's just not as manageable... I've got a XD357Sig.. I don't carry because of shoot through concerns. I'd voice same concerns for 10mm. I know FBI made a case for it but they have deeper pockets for defense lawyers than I have and chances are when they used it shoot throughs might have been a two for one. I can say the 10mm will kill a horse so very well (Win. 175 gr ST, think thats the weight). Never got a chance to put a horse down with a .45 and that is what I carry and think it would do the job too. Well, I've put down a ~2,000 lbs. black angus bull with a 45. He dropped like a brick. Of course our butcher puts down cattle all day with a .22 magnum and all the other butchers I've known used a 22lr.
I really should leave this alone...but what the hell. I can't resist...Working with cattle is what I do for a living out here in cornfield and cattle country.... ........................................ I would really lke to see your butcher do from 50 yards with his .22magnum what a 45ACP will do taking down a large animal.... and he doesn't get to use a red dot or scope either as the 45ACP won't need optics and no where near the shot placement his 22mag. will need.... Animals are put down at point blank range .... There's no time or desire to play target practice. Your butchers objective is to get from hoof to processed refrigeration asap. FYI. A lot of laughterhouses don't even use ammunition any more. There are more cost effective ways of taking an animal down. Hi-Jack over...sorry for the diversion. But wait it really wasn't. The 45acp or 45+P will make a much, much more superflous wound than 22magnum or 10mm. The reason your butcher uses a 22mg vs a 45acp or +P is because there's a lot more money in selling steaks than hamburger
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The OP is stating that the 10mm rounds are very close to the 45+p rounds. why is everyone making the claim that the 10mm "is pure power" or "really moving" when the .45+p is nearly identical in speed and bullet weight? just doesn't seem to compute. +1 OP did this nice little analysis where it appears that the 10mm is superfluous when you can get the same performance from a 45acp. So 10mm fans, what are we missing here? (note: I do think that a Buffalo Bore 10mm 200 gr moving at 1150fps versus a 45acp+P 200gr moving at 950 is pretty significant. That's 20% faster which is quite a lot.) +1 10mm has potential to have a higher mag cap but suffers from not having many double stack platforms to choose from. I'd love a 10mm M&P and XD available. So far all I can get is an EAA offering or a Glock. My other option is building a SVI 10MM compact. So for 10MM carry it's Glock or $1500+ Looking forward to the new Bren 10 though. |
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... Killing horses never entered the equation from anything *I* have EVER read. ... Please note: I have no intention to get dragged into yet another "which caliber" debate: however I do have a little info about this, just as an FYI for the immusement of all involved. The confusion about killing a horse comes in a lot because the initial spec called for a round that would " cause a charging horse to faulter" Meaning: if an oncomming calvaly soldier was charging you, your sidearm would cause just enought trauma to the mount so that it would stumble sufficiently to make the charge inaffective. Killing a hourse with one shot was never the intent, but is sometimes misquoted by somebody who doesn't understand the word "faulter" in the context of a calvalry charge. . |
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... Killing horses never entered the equation from anything *I* have EVER read. ... Please note: I have no intention to get dragged into yet another "which caliber" debate: however I do have a little info about this, just as an FYI for the immusement of all involved. The confusion about killing a horse comes in a lot because the initial spec called for a round that would " cause a charging horse to faulter" Meaning: if an oncomming calvaly soldier was charging you, your sidearm would cause just enought trauma to the mount so that it would stumble sufficiently to make the charge inaffective. Killing a hourse with one shot was never the intent, but is sometimes misquoted by somebody who doesn't understand the word "faulter" in the context of a calvalry charge. . I'm immused... Get Both... |
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The OP is stating that the 10mm rounds are very close to the 45+p rounds. why is everyone making the claim that the 10mm "is pure power" or "really moving" when the .45+p is nearly identical in speed and bullet weight? just doesn't seem to compute. At longer ranges, the 10mm bullet, which is smaller around, will retain more velocity, and thus energy, due to its higher sectional density - all other things being equal. It will also penettrate deeper at impact, for the same reason - again - all things being equal. This is good for hunting. Paradoxicly, it can be BAD for self-defense use, as if the bad guy is far enough away for this to make a differemce, it may be legally difficult to argue that the shooter was in imminent danger, adn the danger of over-penetration wounding an innocent is also present. |
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WOW What a thread , My 2 cents, For Home protection,Personal protection (if forced to choose one ore the other) .45 all day long , less Penetration. More ammo choice,easier for most people to get a faster second shot. I am not saying you cant shoot 10mm well ,it just takes practice.
If you are LE i would say ...10mm , as with another poster, I too looked at the windshield of a fast approaching car, One shot from mt P220 and the driver took one too the face, much too my suprise........Most of the energy was expelled on the windshield , gave the driver a nasty flesh wound (luckily). I now carry a 10mm Match 10 (predates the colt Delta Elite) with 175 grain silvertips I just ordered a STI perfect 10 , Will carry that when it comes in. In a perfect world you would choose a caliber and delivery system on use. I have tried the glock ,SIG, and many others but i like the 1911. SO i guess the long and short Soft targets 45 all the way Hard targets 10mm (if i cant get to the FAL LOL) |
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The OP is 45+P vs 10mm, so I'll get back to that so this tread isn't hijacked. The history of the 45 cartridge starts with the 45LC. It's ability to make a " Superflous " wound was desired in bringing down a horse mounted soldier and the Army wasn't going to give up that ability with the semi-auto. The 45 round cavitates creating a larger wound according to everything "I've" read. My concerns for the 10mm are still the same. Shoot through. You've got a small diameter bullet traveling at a high speed. So much so that a 135 grain jhp can be loaded to 1435 fps. If charging cars are your concern it's your round. If threatened in a crowded grocery store or shopping mall I think the 45ACP in a 1911 format is the safer choice of the two. The army actually used a shorter round than the .45 Colt, one that could fit their S&W revolvers as well as their Colts. The ACP was designed to duplicate that shorter (and lower powered) round's performance. The .45 Colt put out a 250 gr bullet at 900 fps and change. |
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Either one will do just about identical things to soft skinned targets such as humans. 10mm gives you one more round in a 1911 (not a big deal).
Where the 10mm definitely shows an advantage is as a woods gun (with hard cast 200 grain wide meplat loads) For a CCW, I think it's mostly a wash, except that I prefer an alloy frame for CCW, which you won't get with a 10mm. And anyone who gets a 10mm and does not reload is just nuts IMHO. |