[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Kimber, Para, or Springfield (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 4/20/2009 6:59:30 AM EDT
| I have heard good and bad about all 3. Im leaning toward Springfield as long as its not marked Brazil. Not looking to spend more than $1000. Give me input guys. Thanks! Forgot to mention I like the commander style the best but also like the 5 inch barrells. |
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I carry a Para and also own a Springfield 1911. (and a couple XD's...which are the best of the bunch, but that's not your question)
However.....all non Custom Shop Springfield 1911s are made in Brazil. Kimbers are very popular with LE in my area. I think Kimber overall has a slightly better reputation for reliability than Para, all things being equal. Had a non-reliability problem with my Para when I first got it, also had an upgrade done. Customer service was first class. One arfcommer I know disliked Kimber because of the MIM parts, but he didn't even know what an MIM part was. By the time you get to your price point, the reliability should be very close. Choose the features you like best. I would recommend the Springfield, but you have ruled it out. Pick what's available. A friend is a Kimber Master Dealer. I think they're back eight months or so. btw...I've never known a satisfied owner of a modern Colt. |
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http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=18
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=9 These are 2 of the Springers Im looking at, also looking at the Kimber TLE RL II . I work for a gun store, so I do get a little better price. The kimber is looking like the best bang for the buck so faar. |
| I just returned from my range. I was shooting my Kimber CDP-PRO 4" and my Kimber Tactical Custom 5". Three hundred of my reloads, drawing from a holster and engaging three seperate targets. Both guns ran like a swiss watch and are dead on POI, POA. I believe all the major 1911 makers are making great guns nowadays and I would not shy away from any (well maybe Parra) but Kimber gives you the most for your money. |
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I own a Springfield loaded, and a Kimber TLE II. Both ran fine out of the box, and past the 500 rd break in. They both shot anything I fed them.
I have modified both of them now. I replaced all the MIM parts on the Kimber with Ed Brown, 10-8, ect. I also installed a series 80 FP, which defeats the stupid FP saftey. I think the total cost for parts was under $200 and now I would put it up against anything out there. I do carry it on duty as well. Please understand the Kimber ran fine before the mods. I just dont take chances that I can avoid. $200 was cheap to ensure the highly disgrunted MIM parts would not have a chance to fail. SO I suggest the Kimber. |
| As you can see, the responses you've recv'd have probably been of little value. I've have one of each and it all comes down to personal taste. The only thing I'd shy away from are any brl lengths less than 4". Kimber will likely (though not a guarantee) have highest resale value (just my experience). On the other hand, Kimber Series 1 are probably better quality than the current Series ll pistols. Para excels in the LDA and hi-cap .45s. However, as one gentleman offered to the contrary, I'd certainly not run away from a Para. Personally, with all things being relatively equal in quality and a matter of taste, I'd order whichever mod of each you're considering and see which comes in first and let fate dictate the outcome. In present environment, most gun dealers won't have any prob with this tactic and can easily sell whatever you don't want. |
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Kimber... they have the Swartz FPS, which makes it an immediate no go for me. Not trying to hijack but what's wrong with the Swartz FPS? The answer to a question that was never asked. It is not need, and a horrible FPS setup. The Colt FPS setup is much better in design. That said the FPS has been taken out of my Colt. |
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As you can see, the responses you've recv'd have probably been of little value. I've have one of each and it all comes down to personal taste. The only thing I'd shy away from are any brl lengths less than 4". Kimber will likely (though not a guarantee) have highest resale value (just my experience). On the other hand, Kimber Series 1 are probably better quality than the current Series ll pistols. Para excels in the LDA and hi-cap .45s. However, as one gentleman offered to the contrary, I'd certainly not run away from a Para. Personally, with all things being relatively equal in quality and a matter of taste, I'd order whichever mod of each you're considering and see which comes in first and let fate dictate the outcome. In present environment, most gun dealers won't have any prob with this tactic and can easily sell whatever you don't want. I've not made comment...yet, but am curious as to why you think the responses prior to yours have been of little value? Does that mean only yours has value...that you came to save the day? You're right about personal taste, but I doubt any gun dealer is going to be happy (or maybe even allow) you to buy 3 or more guns (not to say what your wallet will feel about that) and return the ones you don't like. They would now be used guns... |
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I carry a Para and also own a Springfield 1911. (and a couple XD's...which are the best of the bunch, but that's not your question) However.....all non Custom Shop Springfield 1911s are made in Brazil. Kimbers are very popular with LE in my area. I think Kimber overall has a slightly better reputation for reliability than Para, all things being equal. Had a non-reliability problem with my Para when I first got it, also had an upgrade done. Customer service was first class. One arfcommer I know disliked Kimber because of the MIM parts, but he didn't even know what an MIM part was. By the time you get to your price point, the reliability should be very close. Choose the features you like best. I would recommend the Springfield, but you have ruled it out. Pick what's available. A friend is a Kimber Master Dealer. I think they're back eight months or so. btw...I've never known a satisfied owner of a modern Colt. 
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| If the "Made (completely) in the USA" issue is a dealbreaker, you need to look for a pistol with a "NM" serial number prefix. I believe that all G.I.s, most Mil-Specs, and some Loadeds are made-complete in Brazil, and the frame is so-stamped. These pistols bear a "W" or a "N" serial number prefix. All SA pistols use frames and slides that were poured and pounded in Brazil, but those that are finish machined in Illinois and have sufficient US content to be marked "made in usa" (or however they're marked) have serial numbers with "NM" as a prefix. |
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I carry a Para and also own a Springfield 1911. (and a couple XD's...which are the best of the bunch, but that's not your question) However.....all non Custom Shop Springfield 1911s are made in Brazil. Kimbers are very popular with LE in my area. I think Kimber overall has a slightly better reputation for reliability than Para, all things being equal. Had a non-reliability problem with my Para when I first got it, also had an upgrade done. Customer service was first class. One arfcommer I know disliked Kimber because of the MIM parts, but he didn't even know what an MIM part was. By the time you get to your price point, the reliability should be very close. Choose the features you like best. I would recommend the Springfield, but you have ruled it out. Pick what's available. A friend is a Kimber Master Dealer. I think they're back eight months or so. btw...I've never known a satisfied owner of a modern Colt. And how many Colt owners do you know? |
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And how many Colt owners do you know? Dozen or so. As regards the FPS issue....I don't remember "feel" of a Kimber being affected by the safety system, so, OP, I'd suggest you check that before you decide. That is because Kimber's FPS works off of the grip safety. |
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And how many Colt owners do you know? Dozen or so. As regards the FPS issue....I don't remember "feel" of a Kimber being affected by the safety system, so, OP, I'd suggest you check that before you decide. That is because Kimber's FPS works off of the grip safety. ETA: I am very happy with my Colt. |
| Thanks to everyone for your imput. I ordered a Kimber Pro TLE RL II. It was stupid low money b/c I work for a dealer who stocks both Kimber and Springfield. I found that I got alot more for the money with Kimber than the Springer. Only time will tell if I made the right choice. |
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Colt I have heard quite a few bad things about colt 1911s, not sure why so many people come on here and give the token one word "Colt" response with no explanation besides brand loyalty or favoritism. Their 1911 koolaid isnt nearly as sweet and delicious as that of their AR-15s. I would rather have a springer over a colt after all of the horror stories Ive had friends and acquaintances tell me about their experiences with colt 1911s. |
| shit a dan wesson, or fusion is better than all of these. springer, kimber and para are all MIM, even the custon shop 2k springs are MIM. take a look at fusion. sti uses alot of MIM and cast frames, you have to go a lawman level to get forged. ~ $1400 or so. i beleive you can get a fusion around 1k. the new colts are ok, still have some MIM, some cast parts. if you can find an older colt, id say buy that. 1911's are of those platforms, you get what you pay for, its not a glock. |
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shit a dan wesson, or fusion is better than all of these. springer, kimber and para are all MIM, even the custon shop 2k springs are MIM. take a look at fusion. sti uses alot of MIM and cast frames, you have to go a lawman level to get forged. ~ $1400 or so. i beleive you can get a fusion around 1k. the new colts are ok, still have some MIM, some cast parts. if you can find an older colt, id say buy that. 1911's are of those platforms, you get what you pay for, its not a glock. Pffft. You might want to go check your facts a bit. |
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Colt I have heard quite a few bad things about colt 1911s, not sure why so many people come on here and give the token one word "Colt" response with no explanation besides brand loyalty or favoritism. Their 1911 koolaid isnt nearly as sweet and delicious as that of their AR-15s. I would rather have a springer over a colt after all of the horror stories Ive had friends and acquaintances tell me about their experiences with colt 1911s. Well, what is YOUR experience with Colt other than hearing things? I have three Colts, three Springers, and a NH...so I'm not showing brand loyalty or favoritism. For a "factory" gun Colt is hard to beat. Colt uses the least MIM (except for DW, but I find DW's to be ugly), and I enjoy mine tremendously. Having owned Colt AR's and 1911's, I would say their 1911 koolaid is better than their AR flavor. When pistolsmiths like Miller, Christiansen, etc say the 1911s that Colt is making now are some of the best they have ever made, you can pretty much take that to the bank (and you can't deny, no matter how much you may not like them that Colt has made some fantastic 1911's in the past). Out of my "factory" box-stock 1911's, my Colts make me smile the most. I would recommend that instead of just listening to what others say, you try one out yourself. |
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shit a dan wesson, or fusion is better than all of these. springer, kimber and para are all MIM, even the custon shop 2k springs are MIM. take a look at fusion. sti uses alot of MIM and cast frames, you have to go a lawman level to get forged. ~ $1400 or so. i beleive you can get a fusion around 1k. the new colts are ok, still have some MIM, some cast parts. if you can find an older colt, id say buy that. 1911's are of those platforms, you get what you pay for, its not a glock. Pffft. You might want to go check your facts a bit. ohh yeah, you might check with sti. |
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I've had bunches of KImbers and Para Ord's. No more thanks.
I just bought a new production (2009) Colt Gold Cup that came with Champion sights. No slide rub at all. Best $950 I ever spent (at least on a firearm.  )
Colt had some complaints about some minor cosmetic issues (which they appear to have sorted out) but there never was a question that they would run. |
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shit a dan wesson, or fusion is better than all of these. springer, kimber and para are all MIM, even the custon shop 2k springs are MIM. take a look at fusion. sti uses alot of MIM and cast frames, you have to go a lawman level to get forged. ~ $1400 or so. i beleive you can get a fusion around 1k. the new colts are ok, still have some MIM, some cast parts. if you can find an older colt, id say buy that. 1911's are of those platforms, you get what you pay for, its not a glock. Pffft. You might want to go check your facts a bit. ohh yeah, you might check with sti. For the reading impaired.... 
Directly from STI...please note WHO they quote....Bob Serva from Fusion Firearms.....the very ones the "know it all" above recommends..... Q. Does STI use any MIM parts? A Yes. We, like most manufacturers, do but not in any of the "critical" stress or wear components. Our good friend Bob Serva of Fusion Firearms has graciously allowed us to quote his response to this question. "Gentlemen, the hysteria over MIM has been going on for many years. The facts are that MIM and PM (powder metal) are modern manufacturing processes that do have their place. Many parts lend themselves to MIM processes due to there shape and function. I have been working as a manufacturing engineer and closely with the firearms industry for over 20 years. I can give you some of my experience and facts of MIM and PM. Q. Are MIM parts of lesser quality than cast, forged or barstock? A. NO. MIM and PM parts if designed and processed properly are as good as the other process for most small part applications. Design, material selection and heat-treatment processes play a big part in quality and serviceable life of the part. For example, most people don't understand how many products they use everyday that are MIM and PM processed. Items such as the transmission gears in your car, valves, the jaws on the cordless drill you use and many types of carbide tooling for machining to name a few. Q. Why do manufactures use them in there product? A. Quality and cost. MIM and PM allow for consistent process that produces repeatability and good quality parts of complicated geometry. Tooling for MIM parts is very expensive and you need to produce a product with some volume in sales or it is very hard to justify the costs. Q. Can you make substandard quality MIM parts? A. Yes. Again, design and process control are critical to good quality MIM parts. But this is also true with cast, forged, or barstock parts. If good manufacturing processes are not followed you will get parts of sub-standard quality. Q. Why do we seem to see more MIM parts fail? A. This is pure Numbers. Most production firearms include MIM or PM parts- Yes, you might not want to believe it but most all pistols, revolvers, and rifles contain MIM or PM parts. Most people, without knowing the difference, have been using these for many years. Why we hear about it more is because the majority of pistols and revolvers have some MIM content in them. So, if we want to look at this logically you have to think in PPM. (PPM is Parts Per Million- it is a basis to how to figure a parts failure rate and its effect on the product.) For example if in 2005 there were 500,000 pistol produced with MIM slide stops and the failure rate worked out to be 1 failure per 1000, we would see 500 MIM slide stops fail. If in the same year we produced 50,000 with bar stock slide stops with the same failure rate we would hear of 50 failures. So Yes, we do hear of more MIM failures and we probably should due to the fact that they are, at a minimum, of 10 to 1 in annual sales. So Yes, MIM does has its place and it can and does produce high quality and durable parts. Yes, some will fail, just as cast, forged, and barstock parts also fail. I have used 1000's of STI parts in production 1911's over the years and the failure rate was basically the same with MIM as with the other manufacturing processes. I have worked closely with the people at STI for many years and their designs and process controls are first class. They do not skimp or try to cheapen their product to save a nickel. They use the best processes and materials available and they always have the goal to offer their customers products of exceptional quality and attention to detail." For those who believe casting and investment casting to be the same thing....they are not. Investment Casting It pays to know what you are talking about. Spouting nonsense about MIM parts does not make one an expert. Especially when one can't seem to have their facts straight. The "casting" lowers used on the STI Trojan and Ranger II? Yup....same ones used by Fusion Firearms. Imagine. Many major parts are shared by STI and Fusion Firearms. STI does not use MIM parts for critical wear components....at all. As far as Dan Wesson goes....wouldn't keep one if it were given to me free. Fusion Firearms is good to go. There is a reason Bob left Dan Wesson to create Fusion Firearms. More on Bob Serva. The pictures below are just a few of many parts shared between the two companies. The Fusion Scout can also be cut for STI ramped barrels by Fusion Firearms.....anyone care to speculate why? 
Scout - Fusion Firearms 
STI Ranger II 
STI Trojan 
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beleive me i have my facts straight,
ohh i know that fusion uses alot of sti parts, frames ,slides. its not like its a big secret. 
even in the entry level full size fusions your get froged frame.... not casted like sti.... shit even the high end sti's are casted, like the targetmaster... bob will build you one to spec. so... saying one can be built to spec, with better parts, when getting a gun from fusion, or home build, pretty close around 1k or so. from my experience its best to try to stay away from the MIM as much as posssible in single action pistols, in gloks and shit they are ok. and.... jeez, u need to ligheten up on the blow or sumtin, dont take it personally.... |