Posted: 2/22/2008 7:36:36 PM EDT
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So I have been doing a lot of research for my 1st 1911. I have been reading a lot and aksing around and talking to people. So my question to you all... is there really all that much difference between the Springfields and the Kimber's? From what I can tell, the Springfield people love their and hate the Kimbers and the Kimber people love theirs and hate the springfields.... But is there REALLY that much difference between the 2? I know people talk about the safety on the kimbers, but that's all I've heard "bad" about the Kimbers and most people I have talked to don't actually have a problem with their Kimber safety. I am looking at the Springfield Operator or the Kimber TLE/RL II. I'm sure I would be happy with either one. |
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Its subjective really. My first "real" 1911 was a Springer Loaded back in 2004 when they were running about $500. It had a lumpy trigger, FTE problems, a FL Guide rod that spun loose on ocassion and the finsh was not pretty. Springfield has a tendency to leave alot of tool markings on their guns, I havent found the same with my Kimbers. Shortly after that I bought my Warrior I and it has been a stellar shooter. Its accuracy and reliability really reinvigerated my desire to learn pistolcraft. It s a pistol that I will never sell. It also cost roughly double what I paid for the PX910L. More to the point, Both use MIM parts which alot of guys rail on around here. It you use your gun excessively hard and shoot 10k rounds a year its probably in your best interest to replace key MIM parts with steel parts from any of the reputable manufacturers like Wilson or Ed Brown. "Key Parts" being slide stops, firing pins, extractors, triggers, hammers, sears, disconnectors etc. I prefer my kimbers to stay stock and my springers I mod up. Ive owned the Kimber warrior for 3 years, have probably shot 5k ronds through it and replaced nothing but a recoil spring. I had a few issues with it in the first 500 rounds but that is to be expected as they come out of yonkers pretty tight. In the end I would say that you can find a wealth of information here and several other 1911 forums on the net. Soak up as much info as you can and then take a day to hit your local gunshops where you would be able to actually handle what it is your searching for. |
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These days it seems that Kimber has gotten sloppy about the details that made them popular years ago. I think they are more worried about what new Model of the Week to release next, instead of concentrating on correctly building the ones currently going out the doors. Springfield is far from perfect as well, but there seems to be less wrong with their guns that a little basic tweaking won't fix. Springfield also seems to have a better customer service attitude in general, and they tend to fix the guns right when you send them in, instead of halfheartedly trying some bullshit and sending them back. Both use MIM parts everywhere they can get away with it, but it appears that Springfield does a better job of consistently producing parts. There seem to be a lot of stories of Kimber parts breaking. When it comes to unwanted and unnecessary safeties, Kimber's Series II crap will leave holes in the frame and slide once removed. Springfield did a fairly clever thing IMO by incorporating their safety into a subassembly that can be easily and cheaply replaced, not to mention simply bypassed with a few cheap parts, if you don't want to get rid of the mainspring housing. Springfield's extractors are pretty crappy and generally need adjustment right out of the box. Kimber is notorious for cutting their chambers too tight, which can cause reliability problems. On balance I prefer Springfield. Their styling is less offensive to me, their problems tend to be easily remedied, and their customer service has a good rep for making the problems right if you can't. |
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OK Kimbers have very good slide to frame fit and barrel lock up. Kimber's Swartz firing pin block system can be easily damaged in either take down or assembly if done wrong. It is also timing sensitive to the beavertail. While most work fine the ones that malfunction will cause the firearm to go click instead of bang. How much weight you put on that information is up to you. Kimber has had problems with out of spec slide stops. If your Kimber experiences early slide lock or fails to lock at all on an empty mag the slide stop is most likely the cause. Kimbers often come with excessively tight chambers. If you're experiencing intermittent failures to feed while using a properly tuned extractor, quality mags and ammunition you may well have a chamber that needs to be reamed. The Springfield MC Operator also has very good frame to slide fit and barrel lockup. The Springfield MC Operators also appear to have a VERY LOW failure rate of anything. The Springfield MC Operator does come with the ILS system which I would remove. While the odds of it malfunctioning are low if it does malfunction you'll have a non functioning 1911. Further replacing the OEM 28lb ILS system with a standard 23lb system will noticeably reduce the trigger pull weight. ETA: Ken has some good points above as well. . . . 
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| How come all keep leaving the Dan Wessons out of this ? Or should I say the CURRENT Dan Wesson's being produced by CZ ? They are just as good of fit and finish as my TRP's and they are already built w/Ed Brown internals from the factory. They, like the Springer, are series 70 w/ no Schwartz crap safety. The trigger breaks like glass and the accuracy is as good if not better than my TRP's and I haven't done a damn thing to them. I know DW got a bad rep to begin with, but CZ has done wonders for these pistols and they are already rammed full of the best internals you can get. Matter of fact my custom built classics slide was so tight, I actually had to smack it into battery the first time I fired it. I must say for under a grand with tax this pistol has really impressed me. Their worth a look before you buy. |
because the question was So my question to you all... is there really all that much difference between the Springfields and the Kimber's? i am not impressed with the kimbers they appear to me to be a sissy gun... just an opine.... i have a "loaded" and any of the problems mentioned above are not on mine... tight fit a trigger so sweet and crisp it would make you cry and accurate as all hell... my first mag full right out of the box and i had one jagged hole... to paraphrase a great movie line *tongue firmly in cheek* 'get rid of that sissy kimber and get you a springer' 
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MY Kimber Pro Carry II has operated flawlessly in the 5 years I've owned. 0 problems. My Springfield GI failed to eject right out of the box. After shipping back to the company it works fine now (they paid shipping). But until I have hundreds of more rounds through it I don't trust it. If this is a carry gun, you need to be able to depend on it to work every time. For me that means Kimber. YMMV. |
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I had one of the Klackamas Kimbers in the 1400 SN range so I can only comment on that one in particular. Springfields, Ive more than a few and only one had to go back for shooting low. I dont know what turnaround would have been because I had the Custom Shop do work on it and got it back in 3 months. A month of that almost was because it had to be sent out for reanodizing. Great pistols for the money and even better Custom Shop for the money. |
It took them only a week to get mine back to me, I was pleasantly surprised (they say up to 3 weeks). |
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I actually have both of the 1911's that you are asking about. I have an older Operator that has the full length rail and sandpaper like grips and later bought a Kimber TLE/RL II I shot alot of IPSC and have used both for matches, as soon as I bought the Kimber I added a new main spring housing with a mag funnel, and sandpaper type grips. Both shoot very well and are very accurate, I did have a few FTF with the Kimber for about the first 500 rounds, but after that it never failed me. I use the Kimber as a beater, just because the finish is not as nice as the Springer and I paid about $300.00 more for the Springer. If I could only keep one I would keep the Springer, but then again I can keep both so I will
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I own a Kimber TLE and a friend of mine owns a Springfield Loaded. I've put over 10k rounds through my Kimber, and it has been ultra reliable. It's never had a malfunction that wasn't ammo or mag related, even though it is one of the dreaded external extractor models  . The swartz safety is easily bypassed by dropping in an aftermarket firing pin. It has a beautiful trigger and the fit and finish is head and shoulders above my friend's SA loaded. Also the trigger on his SA is absolutely horrible for a 1911.My wife has two 9mm Kimbers and my brother has a Kimber Pro Carry. All have consistantly beautiful triggers, which IMO is one of the biggest advantages of a 1911 in the first place. However, those three are internal extractor models, and I needed to adjust them right out of the box. Simple task that only take 5 minutes, though, and they all run 100%. My good experiences with Kimber guns has made me a die hard Kimber fan. I don't think there is anything wrong with SA though, and I've heard great things about the Operator. My Kimber TLE/RL II: 
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| My carry gun is a Kimber Ultra Aegis II. My nightstand gun is a Springfield loaded. Both are good brands. SA has a lifetime warranty, Kimber has a one year warranty (many people report that Kimber did warranty work on pistols much older than one year). Both use more MIM or plastic parts than I would like to see, but none of those items have caused me any problems. I am satisfied and comfortable using either brand. |
hey come on jesus... this is the internet you arnt suppose to have to back things up... ya just pop off unsubstansiated claims... *L* actually i have seen some nice ones but i have seen some that i just dont care for case in point http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/sis/ just a crazy mans opinion... i like my springer lots... but when i carry, i carry my glock 19 or s&w 642 oh and while i am rambling on noncering MIM parts... MIM is not your fathers conventional powder metal processes PMP. MIM parts are typically 95% to 98% dense, approaching wrought material properties when compared to conventional powder metallurgy processes. i think there is an internet over-hype on MIM parts being bad. |
No doubt, but on the other hand, there is a kernel of truth to it. And Kimber seems to be the source of most of that kernel. Other 1911 makers use MIM but you rarely if ever hear about their parts being problematic. There is a thread floating around on another forum that consists mostly of photos of broken Kimber parts. |
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I bought my Kimber Custom Stainless II in 2002 and it has never given me a moments worry. Fit and finish are great, good trigger and flawless function. I'm not allowed to CCW here in LA, but if I could, I'd have this gun at my hip in a second. It hooked me on 1911s and so I've occasionally handled Springfields in stores, and I've never really liked them. They kind of feel "cheap" like they are loose. I know they make great bases to start a custom build, but if you just want to buy a gun and use it the way it is, the Kimber rocks. The only thing I've ever done to it aside from routine maintenance is put Tritium sights on it. To each his own. And admittedly, I have not shot the higher end Springfield pistols. But anyone within 100 yards attacking me wouldn't call this pistol "sissy" just because of a rollmark. Just sayin. YMMV. |
I always laugh when I hear this. A malfunction is a malfunction, period. Your gun did not work. A lot of guys tell me "oh it was ammo related." When I ask them to really explain why it was in fact ammo related, they struggle. How many ammo or mag related problems have you had? That would help us better guage the reliability of your Kimber. |
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The op only asked about Kimbers or SA. I have an early model Kimber with no problems. Never owned a SA so can't comment. What I would suggest is you look at the broader market for options. If you could only have one 1911 go with something of top quality and you won't look back. Wilson Combat, Les Baer, STI, Ed Brown etc. You DO get what you pay for in most cases. |
Uhh, no, it sounds like the mags didn't work. A gun can be 100% but put in a $5 gunshow special and you'll get malfunctions that are not the fault of the gun. Ammo that's been improperly loaded can do the same thing i.e. improper seating depth, crimp, primer not seated all the way etc....all these things are clearly not the fault of the gun. |
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I've owned both. Never owned one of the higher up Springfields, I've had Loaded models. Out of the Kimbers I've owned a Warrior and two Custom II. Kimber's seam to be overall smoother guns. I totally agree on Springfield's customer service. Both companies have their down and upsides. I had one Kimber that would not feed a thing becouse of a tight chamber, and I had a Loaded model that had a hammer that flopped back and forth because of a part breaking(Wish I had taken a pic to add to those Kimbers). I'm sorry that I do not know the parts name, but it was the rod that goes from the hammer to the mainspring. The part snapped in half during firing. I also might add that this I believe to be a mim part. Every company that mass produces A product will have problems. Both companies stand behind their product so I say go with what you want. If it looks good and the price is right, whats the problem? And I might add this is the first time I've ever heard any 45 described as a "sissy gun". PS. I still own one Kimber. 100% reliable and very accurate. |
I was asking about these 2 manufactures because it is going to be a duty weapon and I have to use either a Kimber, Springfield or Colt 1911.... And thanks for all the replies so far! |
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I own both as well as many others. I know people who have other brands, and none are perfect 100%. Handle the guns and buy the one that you like. Or buy both and be glad you live in a country where you can. Don't get caught up in the forum "BS" as I have seen guys bad mouth both brands who never even owned one but they read on a forum somehwere about a guy who's brothers uncle had a kimber or SA or Taurus and so on that was a POS. Spend your money on what you like. |
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Springfields are awesome guns. I have three. 2 Mil-specs and a TRP OP. I have a kimber Classic Stainless Gold Match too. It was made before the series II crap. That being said I think the only kimbers worth buying are the Warrior series, SIS series, and Target Match because they are like original "series 70" guns without the extra uneeded safety crap. |
They were problems with reloads when I first started learning to reload. I had a few squibs from a bad batch of ammunition. The second was when I put too much bell on the case mouth and did not take it off, which cause the round not feed completely into the chamber. This was when I was first learning to reload; I learned from my mistakes and have not have a problem since. Would you like to tell me how the results would have been different in any other gun? As for the magazines, they were 10 rounders worn out to the point that I could slam them too far into the magwell on a slide lock reload. Slamming them too far in could get them stuck. I have since replaced the magazines and not had any problems. Again, how would a different gun have made a difference? |
I've had plenty of ammo related failures. Mostly the fault of out-of-spec reloads. Cases not properly sized, or otherwise deformed. That kinda thing. Mag issues are a seperate problem. You can have failures associated with a specific magazine, for example, a failure to lock back the slide. |
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User Info IM User Email User Reply Quote Report Quoted: The op only asked about Kimbers or SA. I have an early model Kimber with no problems. Never owned a SA so can't comment. What I would suggest is you look at the broader market for options. If you could only have one 1911 go with something of top quality and you won't look back. Wilson Combat, Les Baer, STI, Ed Brown etc. You DO get what you pay for in most cases. I was asking about these 2 manufactures because it is going to be a duty weapon and I have to use either a Kimber, Springfield or Colt 1911.... And thanks for all the replies so far! sorry, I missed that. I'd look at the Kimber without the extra safety stuff one of the posters mentioned. I have an early model SS Pro CDP with internal extractor. Never had a problem and the guns is more accurate than the shooter. |