Posted: 7/21/2007 10:44:32 PM EDT
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I would like to put a tungsten guide rod in my Delta Elite, and I am trying to decide which one. Brownells carries EGW, Wilson, and Cominolli. Please give me the pros and cons of each, thanks! See page 2 for update. |
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Probably not exactly want you wish to hear, but full length guide rods have no practical value. They are either made with two pieces which will unscrew at the wrong moment, or require a tool (hex key), which you may not have when you need it. I agree that the plastic guide rod in a Delta is a POS. I replaced mine with a standard issue guide rod, and never looked back. A full length guide rod is a solution for problem that doesn't exist. Just my .02 |
50-140, thanks for your 2¢. I should have included a blurb that said . . . NO ANTI-FLGR COMMENTS, PLEASE!!!! I don't see myself on some barren mountaintop, naked, fighting off the NVA, and suddenly needing to field-strip my Delta Elite one-piece FLGR.  I want more weight in my pistol. I want an FLGR. |
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Look at the description in the catalog and get one that says it has a "take down hole". There will be a small hole in the guide rod that a small piece of wire can go into and capture the spring and reverse plug. Once that is done, slide the slide back to be able to remove the slide stop and you`re done. I have a pair of gunsmith built 2011 STI`s and I got instructed how to take apart my new creation. Do NOT turn the bushing on the end of the barrel, slide it out a little and then turn it. I won`t argue with the statement that FLGR have no practical use. However I agree with you, I like them and so does my gunsmith, good enough for me. |
Roger on all of that . . . except I'll not be using a reverse plug, rather a standard plug for FLGR's. IIRC, a reverse plug is only for pistols with bull barrels? |
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Since it looks like your choice selections are from Brownells, then the Wilson unit is the cheapest single rod offered (yes you want a single rod-not a two piece, and Dawson has them cheaper but is out of stock on them). Note: The pistol is going to be really front end heavy, so you might want to look at the S/A combined MSH/Mag well to balance out the pistol (it’s the heaviest Mag well combo being offered and does the trick nicely). Without the pistol rebalanced, it will not track for shit as you swing from target to target. www.smithandalexander.com/guides.html Now I will bring this up, The STI recoil master system will get you the same amount of dampening as the tungsten rod without all the extra forward weight, but it's draw back is the unit can self destruct at the worst of times. But having said that, if the rod does snap, STI will replace the unit for free. If you go this way, tell the tech that you will be running the unit on a 10mm, and will need the heavy unit with an overall 24 lb spring tension. www.dawsonprecision.com/CategoryProductList.jsp?cat=GUIDE+RODS |
How "drop-in" is the S&A magwell? I have always been planning to have one put on, but only as part of a full-house build . . . when I can afford one. Would I just be able to order one from Brownells and slap it on?
I had been considering a unit from Sprinco . . . but I think I like the idea of having a more solid rod, with less moving parts to worry about. What I liked about the Cominolli unit is that it uses TWO shock-buffs to pad everything better. However, I haven't been able to get much feed-back on the Cominolli unit. |
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www.dawsonprecision.com/ProductDetail.jsp?LISTID=5840002-1126316014 If you use a reverse plug this is the way to go. |
| I've had FLGR's and I've done without them. If you want one get one. BUT if it's about weight weight in the grip is much better then weight in the muzzle. The difference in weight up there is minor but in the grip you can go crazy. I've held a pair of pewter grips that weighed the same as the hole gun. |
The con side to the FLGR is that it is another thing that can be bent and put the pistol out of commision, like the holes in a lightened trigger. |
The SA mag wells are drop in parts, On the Cominolli unit, the rubber part is it's downfall since sooner of later it's going to go south and end up in the action jamming it. |
Did you happen to notice that the unit is no longer made? |
If you want front end weight without permanently altering the gun, then the tungsten FLGR's will add about as much as you can. (I've never looked for stuff you can add outside the frame, slide up front without drilling, but given that it's 1911's we are talking here, if one of us can think of it, somebody probably makies it, so I'm probably wrong on the red part.)  Have no experience with the Dawson or EGW stuff. The Wilson, IIRC, can be used without a shock buffer, IIRC, as can the bare bones version of the Cominooli. The buffered Cominolli rod requires two shock buffers, one thick, one thin. (Black = thick, red = thin). Cominolli also offers a tungsten plug, or maybe it's Wilson, (I forget). Brownells has all the Wilson and Cominolli stuff, though. 'Search by manufacturer' on thier website. A bit of debunking follows. You do not need any extra tools to disassemble a 1911 type gun with a FLGR, as long as it is otherwise the real deal. You push on the slide stop button with your trigger finger as you pull back on the slide. This pushes the stop out enough on the left side to get a grip on it, if you do it right. Let the slide go back forward slowly. Then you can pull the stop out, and the complete slide assembly will come off the gun. Then you can disassemble the slide like you normally would, but it's already off the frame. Easy, but normal precautions must be taken regarding tension on the recoil spring. I just (I mean right now) did it with a 1911 with a FLGR to get the sequence down correctly for this post. It is possible, depending on the guide rod, for the rod to pop off the lugs when doing this, but it hasn't happened to me yet. A bit of care can prevent this from causing problems as well. I wouldn't try this with a conventional guide plug unless you like crawling around on the floor looking for parts, with shit in your eyes, maybe. Whether or not the added weight up front, or a FLGR, is good/bad/useless is up to you. It's your gun, and it's not like you can't undo what you put on. One of the fun advantages of a 1911 is that you can play around with many 'options' without screwing up the gun, and as long as you don't start removing metal from the frame or slide, you can reverse course and go back to where you were just by putting the original stuff back in. (Warning for the newb's to the 1911: trying to stick in parts that are not fitted properly can screw up the gun, sometimes beyond repair, and can hurt you in nasty ways when you least expect it. I am not making assumptions about anyone in this thread, just saying this for anyone who looks.).Added the EGW above, and a couple of comments regarding other posts. How one could bend a tungsten FLGR without screwing up the dustcover or something else, I don't know, unless you use the gun for a crowbar with the slide locked back. But I guess a sailor could do it. (I was a sailor, j/k guys). I guess you could do it in a vise, but that seems like a waste of cash.On the shock buffers (Cominolli or not). Yep, with use they can deteriorate and possibly jam up the gun. Proper maintenance and cleaning would tend to prevent this. Cominolli sells extra buffers. Many others sell buffers for other guides. This is the first time I've ever heard anyone assert that drilled triggers can cause a malf, but I suppose if you jammed mud/junk in those holes it would jam it up. |
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On the FLGR's, the two piece units are slightly longer, and you will need to use the allen wrench to remove the front end piece before you can turn the barrel bushing to remove it. The single piece rods are slightly shorter and will allow the barrel bushing to be turned with them in place. To add, when reducing recoil, you don't want any of the additional weight moving with the slide; hence that reason for end plugs being made out of tungsten not the best of ideas. |
Dano523, please explain the physics behind NOT increasing the mass of the slide . . . I have a Oberland Arms Glock 21 longslide with a custom 10mm barrel for it . . . making it a G20L!! I can categorically say that the recoil of that G20L is far less than the recoil of my stock G20. Additionally, the brass doesn't go nearly as far, and the slide velocity (in both directions) is much lower. I would have thought that putting in the tungsten end plug would be a GREAT idea. |
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Increasing the slide moving mass will just increase the felt recoil. If you add weight to the slide (moving mass), then you are going to feel it at both, the end of rearward stroke, and lock up (front sight not holding the target when fired). Simply, a limited or unlimited pistol should recoil like it's a 22 (straight back) when loaded to MPF/built correctly. If you have to wait for the muzzle to come back down or pull it back up at lock up (read front sight moving out of the A zone when fired), then the timer is going to kill you by seconds each run. To add, get the pistol too heavy or unbalanced, and it will track like a fence post when moving from target to target (again the timer eating you alive). The big question just comes down to what will be the pistol used for, since this will dictate what would be the best approach to tame the recoil (read since it’s a Delta 10mm; we all know that just downloading to just hit MPF to reduce recoil is one of the options that you will not entertain  ). |
A longer slide/barrel just means a longer sight plain with a bit more speed from the given round. The ejection distances and slide speed is a recoils spring thing (read spring both pistols for a 5 foot clean ejection distance and you may not be able to tell the two apart in regards to recoil). |
All the talk about the timer is great . . . but I'm not a gamer (except in Service Pistol/Rifle). First of all I look for reliability and accuracy in my firearms. Second, ergonomics and handling. I want my Delta to stay reliable, get more accurate, and not pound itself to piss. I've already installed an EGW flat-bottomed FPS to retard slide velocity. I am considering a slightly heavier mainspring as well.
I might shoot it in IPSC or IDPA, but this gun is more a "fun gun" than anything. It's really my "tactical 1911 10mm tinker toy" . . . And yes, it's not going to be fed Purina Wannabe Short & Wimpy Chow . . .
OK. My G20 and G20L currently share the same frame and same recoil spring unit (until I get my other frame). They shoot the same ammo (200gr Rainier TMJ-FP over 11 or 12gr of AA#9, I can't remember the exact number). One recoils less . . . the one with the big, heavy slide. |
First two points are definitely true. I'm not sure about the third, depending on what one is trying to accomplish. Slower slide , all things being equal, should increase first shot accuracy. Follow-up shot impact of a heavier slide mass is less than optimal, but whether or not the additional weight of a tungsten plug compared to other factors is an overall minus...beats me. I'm not that smart. I'd have to shoot it to see how it worked for me. But Dano is right from my (admittedly weak) common sense perspective.  Either way, I did (on one gun) what you are looking at. Cominolli tungsten rod and plug. From a double-tap look, it worked, but there are other variables that come into play. Like grip, stance, trigger speed, etc. Like I said, I'm not smart enough to argue it either way. But it only costs the price of the rod and plug to find out, which in the larger sense, isn't that much.
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I got an email from them last week and they said:
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The less Slide mass you have the less the muzzel will flip off target. It will recoil more staight back, but your splits will be better. Just look at some USPSA LTD guns and you will find full length heavy dust covers bull barrles, tug guide rods and slides that were machined to min weight. It works. |
| I'm a little clueless here on the difference, mainly because I've only ever owned the one 1911 and I haven't seen the innards of any others. Can someone explain Full Length Guide Rods to me or point me somewhere where I can read up on it? Maybe some place that has pretty pictures, too? |
You have to remember that slide mass is just part of the equation, the spring tension of the recoil and hammer being the other (also FP stop geometry against the hammer uncocked plays a small role as well). Your delta in its current state uses a 24 lb main recoil spring. If you where to lighten the slide, then you would have less mass and need a stronger recoil spring to equal out the equation, and visa versa. To even add to this, most factory pistols are under sprung so they work with the vast majority of ammo’s being offered (read run with the light loaded stuff). On the Glock, if you pick up a steel guide rod and a spring tune pack, you will find that once the two slides are sprung to eject the brass the same spot (5’ out), the lighter slide will have less off target muzzle recoil. Again, the thing with a longer slide is you have a longer sight plan for the iron sights, and with the longer barrel, you get a bit more speed out of a given load (read can load lighter and still hit MPF). Regarding the new Delta FP lock, it's square edge in fact does increase the lock up time by increasing the hammer spring tension on the slide a few pounds, without increasing the trigger pull weight. The standard hammer spring is 23lbs, and the new FP lock has the same effect on the slide to overcome it as installing a 26-pound hammer spring. For testing, you could pull the new FP stop, reinstall the old one, and just change out the 24-recoil spring to a 26lb unit or the hammer spring to a 26lb for the same slide effect that you are currently getting with the new square edged FP lock (but the latter spring would increase trigger break weight). Really bottom line here is if you tune/spring the pistols to eject the brass about 5’ out, you will feel a huge difference in recoil. From there, you can decide if more stationary weight or a differnet recoil guide system is really needed. |
The only flaw I see here is that you're perfectly equating the Recoil Spring with the FPS and the Main Spring. Adding the square FPS increases the energy required (taken from the slide's rearward energy) to cock the hammer. The same would go for a heavier Main Spring. Once the slide reaches it's rearward maximum, it is only the power of the compressed Recoil Spring that dictates the forward velocity of the slide. By going to a reduced Recoil Spring, with a square FPS and slightly increased Main Spring, I am able to reduce the forward velocity of the slide, thus reducing battering on the weapon with higher powered loads (like my handloads, or even Double Tap Ammunition). |
Works for me since I was just using stock type springs weights as a guide to get the idea across, but still tune the recoil spring for the 5' ejection distances (even with the unlock delay help of the square FP stop). |
| Awful lot of detail here. answer,my opinion of course, I use wilson parts as much as I can. they have never failed me. all mentioned are good i`m sure, but put simply.....wilson combat. I have a delta also. runs fantastic. have a flgr, but not tungsten. actually, it`s the first thing i do to my 1911`s. right, wrong, or indiferent. |
Do you use a shock buffer of any sort? I just got a message from EGW stating that their Tungsten FLGR has a steel flange (to help minimize any breakage) and that they DO NOT RECOMMEND shock buffs with 10mm pistols! I still haven't heard back from Cominolli . . . |
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Get a one piece or one that breaks back at the flange. They are often short enough to break the gun down the regular bushing removal way. If it's not, measure it and send it to me and I'll turn it back in my lathe so it will break down with regular bushing removal. I do them this way all the time for myself and friends. I have converted several Officers models this way too. I prefer the rods with the take down hole as opposed to the hex key type, they just look cleaner when installed. Rick |
Rick, thanks for the offer! Joe Cominolli called me tonight and we talked about his guide rods. He specifies the grade of tungsten for the toughness required, the flange/head/whatever is made of a stainless steel specifically spec-ed to handle the recoil forces. It is also of a length to allow the bushing to turn in the normal manner. He was very personable and very concerned to make sure I had the right product for my needs. I'll be placing an order with Brownells immediately! |
A lot of people dont recommend a shock buff for any cal. |
Buffers can be a double-edged sword, On service/duty type pistols, they don't belong since the buffers do go south, and can binding up the works when they fall apart. On Match/Race type units where you will be cleaning/servicing/they being replaced often, they are a bit of cushion for the end of rear stroke, but some pistols will not slide catch release (catch pushed down from the front of the slide notch when the slide is pulled all the way back) with a buffer in place. |
| i started out using shok-buffs in my 45`s...but have since stopped. sounded like a good idea at the time type thing,but when i saw how they were getting deteriorated in a short time, i had a fear of future problems. can`t tell any difference as far as shooting. the delta is not really any different, for me, than a 45 as far as recoil or handling. i have tried different grips, for control differences, but i can honestly say that it has never malfunctioned. |
Well, they are not designed to last forever. By absorbing the shock, they deteriorate. If one swaps them out regularly, there should never be a problem. |
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UPDATE . . . I just rec'd my Cominolli Tungsten FLGR and Tungsten Guide Plug from Brownell's . . . and the guide plug is WAY too long. It bottoms out in the front of the slide leaving the shoulder so far forward that the bushing can't rotate.  I contacted Joe C. and hopefully this will be resolved. |