Posted: 7/18/2007 1:05:26 PM EDT
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What is the best buy around $1,500 street price? There are so many models and I'm not a 1911 guy, but I know I NEED at least 1 1911 and the Les Baer's look nice... Please do tell! Will most likely be using it as a range gun and vehicle carry. |
My local shop lists a few models:
Out of all those above does anybody recommend I look towards a few particular ones? Is the Bomar Hidden Leaf rear sight or the Baer Combat Fixed Sight preferred? I personally would rather have something OOB that is right on with no adjustments needed. |
If your talking about the SA TRP they are good guns but that is a little high for them (unless they are the Operator). I think Ken meant to say TRS, good choice but I would buy a used Wilson Combat before I would spent money on another LB, YMMV. |
| I bought a Premier II when I decided to get a Les Baer. However, if I had it to do all over again I think I would choose a Thunder Ranch because I think its a better value. The only real negative for the Thunder Ranch is the finish and if you buy a used one you can get one refinished for a more durable finish. If you order a new one you could go with a better (although more expensive) option from Les Baer for a better finish as well. |
Yeah, I meant TRS. I wouldn't bother with the TRP, IMO. |
+1 I never owned a LB, but they priced themselves in an awkward position based on what they offer. As far as my tastes are concerned, they need to pretty it up more or throw in some bells and whistles that would make me consider it seriously instead of dismissing it outright, given the similarly-priced, better looking/equipped Wilsons, Browns, or Nighthawks. OR They should continue to KISS, knock a few hundred off and boot RRA out of the no-frills semi custom market. |
You won't, you'll only get one that's prettier. The TRS, IMHO, is the best bang for the buck out there. I bought one after observing/shooting the other big names at various schools. I liked it so much, I bought another. |
Given that WC and NH don't even catalog a comparable gun under $2k, how on earth are you calling LB's pricing awkward?
And as far as my tastes are concerned, they should continue exactly as they are; not everyone wants a painted pistol with those fugly Kimberish forward serrations and a tactikewl name sprawling across the slide like an acid-etched nightmare. Neither Wilson or Nighthawk make one pistol I'm interested in. I'd say the same for Ed Brown if he hadn't introduced the Jim Wilson model; even so, that one's pretty far down my list. |
I don't think we want to get into a "which one is better" pissing match but nothing you stated above make sense? Baers have standard FCS (as do Wilsons, both can be left off), Baer has his name and "TR Special" written on the side, Wilson has his name and CQB written on the side. Sounds the same to me?? Baer uses cheap, Novak imitation sights, at least Wilson makes his own sights. Blued guns look good but carry one for a while and get back to us. I'll take my "painted" gun anyday. I may have started this from my post above but I have owned two LB TRS's and they don't hold a candle (IMO) to my CQB or my SA Pro. It's a personal opinion and they will both last a lifetime and function flawlessly. One has the best customer service in the industry and one will call you an idiot when you ask them to fix something they messed up in the first place. |
The Baer FCS look a hell of a lot more appealing than the Wimber style. I hate the look of FCS myself, but concede they have some minor utility and the Baer serrations bother me the least. The TR Special logo is simply there because it was associated with Thunder Ranch. It's not like Baer yanked that out of his ass in an attempt to out-tactical the competition. The night sights are about the only thing that you have a point on, and for $600 less than the competition, I find I can live with that. And as far as bluing, I do, and have, carried a blued 1911 for many years. At least when it wears it doesn't look like shit, and it can easily be touched up or completely reblued without having to sandblast everything. And rust has yet to become an issue with me. Granted, I'm not LEO and don't carry a duty gun.
Sounds like you may have an axe to grind based on encounters with LB's customer service. At any rate it's certainly no worse than Ed Brown's, and I willingly give Wilson that point. I've never used LB's service and I don't ever expect to, since I'm the type that will ship a gun off only as a last resort. My point is that some people obviously don't like Baer's guns for stylistic reasons and want him to make guns more like his competition. I say that there's room enough for everybody and I buy Baers because that's what I want, and wouldn't be interested if his shit resembled Nighthawk's. |
I have no axe to grind, I never had to use LB's service either but two friends did. Wilson is in the process of making me a custom, one off rear sight because I asked them to, can't beat that. My Wilson was $1850 and my TRS was $1725, very close IMO. I won't knock the TRS, it's a great gun. But the TRS didn't do anything for me. To each his own. |
The Wilsons are now well over $2k list, and even the standard CQB isn't going for less than $2100 at my gun shop. I know you can do better shopping around, but this applies to the TRS too. |
I love it when I open the thread to find I don't have to do much because a suitable response is made for me. You like LB, and don't like WC. I like WC and don't like LB. Get over yourself. And as the quoted mentions... If you are going to bash WC or any others for something to make your choice look better, then at least abstain from using the practices that your very same outfit does as well. Frankly, I hate FCS too, and I think the LBs are uglier, but I wouldn't be ignorant enough to bash LB for FCS when the WC has them as well.  Also, as mentioned, either outfit will make one without. I have nothing against a LB where it counts: as a shooter. But for what it costs and what it delivers outside of shooting, I can get a lot more (for my tastes) from a similarly priced competitor. And your catalog nonsense doesn't even factor. Who the hell prices by catalog? When I bought my CQB just before the '06' price hike, it was for hundreds below catalog (until I started tacking on features). Even today I would be stunned if I couldn't find a new CQB in the $1,800s and I wouldn't be breaking my leg looking either. Moreover, how is it a generally valid board argument to compare production pistols costing well under $1,000 that are $150-$200 apart on one hand, yet it's inconceivable to compare 2 semi-customs that cost well over $1,500 with a $300 price disparity on the other hand?  And that is giving a wide berth to LB, because I am not convinced they are that far apart. WC has master dealers that get better price breaks and can pass on the savings. As the quoted mentioned... there was less than $200 between his LB and WC. The fact that your dealer's counter says X is hardly convincing evidence either. I have a clip joint in town who gives the same crap prices. 3 blocks down the street I get a completely different story and BOTH are master dealers.
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I don't believe that for a second. You enjoy stirring up the shit more than anyone else here.
There's nothing to get over, I'm afraid. I most certainly have every right to comment on the OP's question, and I might remind you that you're the one who took the thread off topic with your WC/NH comments. And as for the part in red, I don't know what the hell you're talking about.
It most certainly does factor, because LB will charge you exactly what their price list says if you order from them. If Wilson wants to put out a high MSRP and discount to their dealers, that's their business. If Baer follows suit, then they're still cheaper. At any rate, I ain't married to Les Baer, and I have no animus towards Wilson. Each builds their guns the way they build them, and you get what you get. I'm simply sick of people bringing that "get-a-Glock" fanboy bullshit into every thread. |
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So how much will Wilson charge you if you buy the gun directly from them? We both know you can get either gun cheaper through dealers. Or will they say, "Ah, never mind that catalog price -- that's just for rubes." Let's compare apples to apples. We all know that both makers sell to their distributors at a discount. And I'm sure we'd all like to hear what features you find so desirable in the WC that Baer doesn't offer. I hope it's a little more than a gun rug and a bottle of Militec-1. |
I was trying to compare apples to apples by talking about the only thing that matters: How much the consumer can get pistols X and Y for at the end of the day. Catalogs mean nothing to me. Dealer pricing means nothing to me. Your local gun store's crappy prices mean nothing to me. All that is relevant is what is the lowest price that the educated consumer has to pay for the weapon? You state (if I understood this correctly, and you haven't corrected me so far) that Les Baer publishes a price and that is the best you are going to do, whether that's direct, catalog, dealer, whatever. I KNOW that Wilson has a MSRP and they turn them over to dealers, who are free to price them how they see fit. They also have master dealers (and even wholesalers) who get better price breaks and are free to sell them for whatever they wish. That's apples to apples. Not Les does it by the catalog, so it's only fair to hold Wilson to their catalog prices too. Please.
Hmm... You did happen to forget the DVDs, the tools, the earphones, the silicone gun cloth, and the extra magazine, but I'll let that slide, (although I do so begrudgingly, because one mag per gun is utter BS). Frankly, the Baers always had the appeal of competition guns for people who don't like STI Han Solo Blasters. I respect that. But I am not a competition shooter, so the choices never had lasting appeal. I understand they are very accurate performers and you can't belittle that in the least. But the problem with Baer from my perspective is that they are out of touch with "MY" market, and I think the outfit's attitude is an extension of the old man's own outlook and attitude. For starters, their carry department is very lackluster. As mentioned, they blue their guns. Blued is beautiful, and I love collecting them and taking them to the range, but blued is totally obsolete for carry. So, if you want a carry pistol and don't like SS, then you are alienated from the Baer carry market. In addition, their CCW market is rather unappealing. If you are in the market for a full size or a commander, Baer might have the cure, but their compacts are a real snooze. Unless I missed something, the only compact framed pistol offered is the "stinger" which is nothing more than a Baer tuned officer pistol. I will be frank enough to admit that the Baer name might inspire enough confidence to believe their 3.5" works, but I have owned these and their shootability is unpleasant. Wilson offers dynamic choices with respect to CCW. Their CQB is the best CCW package out there, with a compact frame, and 4" conical bushingless barrel, which is inherently more accurate than the bushing system (which adds one more breakable part to the equation) and the weight of the conical actually makes that much more pleasant to shoot (it feels as good or better than a Commander). They also offer the Stealth, and some 9mm EMP-like officer. Baer certainly has something to offer in a traditional 1911, but their pistols seem lackluster and spartan to me. Maybe it's just me, but one looks the same as the other. If I want so spend money on a painfully stock 1911, I find the extra couple of hundred would be better spent sending a series 70 over to Yost for a "superior" *1 package, IMHO. Wilson to me is the outfit that balances tradition and technology. Their pistols are not boring, but they aren't over the top gimmicky either (which is why the snake scales of Brown or the ghetto fabulous NIGHTHAWK "notice me" rollmarks and medallions never did it for me). Finally, I have heard a few accounts of customer service with Baer. I don't know him, and I wasn't there for any of them, but this guy rubs me the wrong way. From what I have read/heard (take that FWIW) he comes off as a real asshole, and that is NOT something I will accept for customer service. I have dealt extensively with Wilson however, and I have found those guys are hands down the best. They are always helpful, and they give you the impression that the conversation advice and assistance comes from the love of the medium, not acting like it's for the pay check to put up with jerks who call in. This distinction alone does it for me and is all that needs to be said. But I would be remiss, since asked, if I didn't add that I don't like Baer's version of FCS (nor Wilson's), and their grip panels, and their cheap, one magazine "no peanut packs on this flight, asshole" brand of cheapness. Yeah, it's trivial to some when X gives you the friendliest and most helpful customer service out there along with a few hundred in freebies and freedom for the dealer to set his price, when both X & Y are top quality pistols that go bang every time where you aimed it, but to me, one really wants your patronage, and the other seems to expect it on their schedule. That isn't trivial to me. |
Unless something has changed, Wilsons come with two 47D mags. Now there is one less thing to not like about WC 
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Nothing's changed to my knowledge. Baer comes with one and Wilson comes with two (and they were perfectly happy to swap out my 7 round 47 officers for a pair of 8 round extended officers for me when I bought the CQB Compact). Not sure if you were emphasizing what I said for effect, or misreading that I said WC only offers one mag 
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My bad, I read that backwards....carry on
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I know Baer has dealers too, like Sporting Arms, that offer them at a discount. I can't tell you what that discount is lately, but it seems I recall you can get them for a couple hundred off. Les will certainly build you one the way you like, if you care to wait and pay full coin. I'm not sure what Wilson's price would be if you did the same.
Most of which I wouldn't use anyway (already being supplied with better) and it could be argued with some validity that Wilson began adding more goodies to partially justify his spiraling price increases.
And personally, I feel that Wilsons are marketed toward the Tactical Tommy crowd who think their new gun means they're qualified for the HRT. Subjective either way.
They do offer paint (Bear-coat) or chrome, so I think this may be a red herring.
I care not a fig for a subcompact and in fact currently own none. But I get the feeling that Les doesn't particularly care to cater to the tiny gun crowd, and that's fine.
Wilson's product line is more diverse, true. Personally I prefer the bushing system for a couple reasons - easily replaceable when worn, and ease of fieldstripping with no tools.
Where you see "lackluster," I see "classic." Where you see "spartan," I see "understated". That's why I like the Yost guns so much. They're elegant with a minimum of gimmicks. The Baers might appear stock, today, compared to the SA Loaded, Kimber, etc., but those guys are playing follow the leader.
I handled some Nighthawks about three years ago and they didn't do much for me either, even before their current pimp-o-licious tactical craze. I was looking hard at the Wilsons around '01 or '02, and liked what I saw. But as I've gotten older, I find I prefer the traditional look and feel in a 5" 1911, and not many folks outside of Baer offer that anymore.
Again, you get what you get. If you want the full meal deal and hand-holding, expect to pay a little more. If you just want a gun that shoots like a house afire without another gun rug to clutter up the drawer or a bunch of other goodies, Baer's your man. Personally I love the LB grip panels and can't stand the double diamond look. I'm just glad he ditched the old logo panels, 'cause those DID look like shit. I've also heard complaints that Baers are tight. Well, that's one reason I like 'em, but aside from that, everybody knows it. That's LB's thing. If you want a loose gun, shoulda bought something else. Most folks don't jump into the semi-custom market without researching the players ad nauseum, so I'm a little surprised when people act like they don't know what they bought. In the end, it's a Ford vs. Chevy thing, and that argument hasn't been solved yet on the Internet as far as I know. |
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The FCS is an evil apparently all but inescapable. Serrations in general are something I'm probably unreasonably picky about. I hate the wide Wilson serrations that make it resemble a painted Kimber, and even more I hate the super-wide STI serrations and their gi-fucking-normous rollmarks that can be seen from low earth orbit. To my eye, the finer LB serrations are easier on the eye, though I'd still prefer them gone. As to the rollmarks, I originally was thinking more of the Nighthawk stuff. Wilson's not as offensive in this department. The paint is an option that everybody's seemingly doing now. I mention it only since you implied it's SS or blued only with LB. I have zero interest in a paint finish on a semi-custom 1911 whether it's Baer or whomever. The CQB did look pretty unique when it first came out, but then Mimber and SA started following suit, and the whole black-over-OD look is so overdone now, you can barely get away from it. One of the reasons I like Baers is because you can get a polished, blued finish standard. That also happens to be one reason I like Colts. Wilson no longer offers it except on the signature grade or maybe some of the super grades.
Are compact LBs unreliable? Not especially from what I've heard. I think Baer offers one only because some of his Baerophile customers insist on one. His reputation certainly doesn't suffer because of a lack of focus in this area, especially when said reputation was built in other areas, namely the competition market for one.
Every bull barreled gun I've ever had has either had a two-piece guide rod which required either a hex key or screwdriver to disassemble, or a one-piece rod that needed a hook to capture the spring for removal. I've seen some exceptions from outfits such as Pistol Dynamics that don't use a FLGR. |
I think the funniest thing about this issue is how similar our tastes are. The perfect design is the classic RCS with no FCS, IMO. Next is the diagonal Gold Cup style with No FCS. Then the wider, but "reasonable" Kimber/Wilson, then the Eddie Murphy Gap-toothed STI/Para bringing up the rear for ugliest. But when you MUST have FCS, I find that virtually the opposite applies. Eddie's still butt ugly, so throw that out. But the best looking is the Kimber/Wilson (or should I say, the least offensive). Then it's the angled Baer style, and the most hideous is classic vertical serrations on the front and rear. |
Well, I suppose we can only look forward to things getting worse, with the fads like snakeskin cuts and Tactical Teabagging Editions flying off the shelves in droves. |
The nice thing about Nighthawk is that they will gladly build a pistol for you without their rollmarks.....which really aren't that big to begin with. Local dealer carries Baer, Nighthawk, RRA. To me Nighthawk was the overall nicest. I like the RRAs as well. Ended up ordering a NH, just got it and its extremely nice. Came with 2 mags. To each their own. |
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I recomend the thunder ranch special by baer. I plan to buy another one in a year or 3 just so I have another one around. I currently own 2 baers and they are very very nice. However, they are not so nice that I worry about holster wear or sweat marks on the blueing, or anything else. Mine get used and I don't worry about it since that is what I think a baer is made for. After handling an ed brown 1911 I felt it was more like a work of art. After handling some wilsons I just felt I liked the baers better. I recomend reading and learning about them all. I personally am just saving up some money and when I get close to being able to buy another thunder ranch special I will watch the EE and see if I can find a used one close by. If not, I don't mind paying baer prices for a baer 1911. I guess all it boils down to is that a baer fits my wants and needs really well. I don't feel like I have to baby it and I feel like it will last as long as I am above ground. I am not saying the others won't, just that I prefer the baer. |