Posted: 11/23/2006 2:36:29 PM EDT
| What are the pros and cons of each? |
FL guide rods are simply an option for those folks who like them, such as myself........  Will a 1911 work w/o them? Certainly. Do they add a measure of reliability? IMO, yes. Some solid rods also add a bit of forward weight to drop a bit off of the muzzle flip as well. I also feel they add a bit to the accuracy due to better/fuller upward pressure on the barrel in battery. FL guide rods aren't very much $$$, I would simply try one & see if you like it. If not, go back to the original design as there's no mods required to the gun in order to use them. Additional confidence in one's gun will almost always allow one to shoot better with it as well, IMO.
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Sorry Bob but most of what you wrote is BS. The first line might be true but there has never been a documented case where a FLGR made a difference in reliability, accuracy etc. They may add a little weight but they do nothing else. I like what Les Baer stated about FLGR's, he said... "Forget it, I don't put that in. That's the biggest gimmick going. A lot of people think it adds accuracy or makes the gun cycle smoother or be more reliable. I don't buy none of that. People are just looking to sell guide rods. Hey, we sell them too. And if someone really wants one we'll be happy to sell it to them. But I don't like them and I don't believe in them and I don't put them in my guns." -from the Book of the 1911. This question has got to be next in line behind the Glock/1911 debate 
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Even most of those guns do not require a FLGR. Wilson Combat, etc do not use FLGR with the bull barrel guns. They use shouldered guide plugs. Like Bob said, use one if you like it but don't kid yourself into thinking it will increase accuracy or reliability. |
I don't like FLGR myself, but I used to have a SAI Loaded 1911 that would not run a full magazine without a jam if the short rod was in. But, when the two piece full length guide rod was in place, she ran smooth as silk. I don't know why. And it was actually more accurate with the FLGR in place.  However, I no longer use that pistol, my other two 1911s run just perfect with the GI guide rod. Richard Heine doesn't like FLGR, either. |
I disagree. The FLGR would have to add more consistent pressure on the bottom of the barrel over the mil-spec short rod simply due to the design, it would seem to me. The short type has the ability to "wiggle" (for lack of a better description) since it's not secured by anything other than the spring itself. Now, how much difference it makes is certainly open for debate. Would it make 1/10" difference? 1/100"? Who knows? What I do know is, ALL of my .45 1911s have them, two came that way & I installed the third one myself. Purely from an engineering perspective, it makes sense to me to have the FLGR. |
Since I am an engineer, I will look at it from that view. The guide rod doesn't touch the barrel. The barrel is held into the slide by the bushing in the front and is forced into battery by link riding up on the slide stop. The barrel bushing fit and lock-up are what will affect accuracy. The guide rod is along for the ride. I do like the way the FLGR looks but I don't see any practical use for it. I didn't want to start the battle but I also didn't want the OP to think that the FLGR is going to get him to 1" at 50yd type accuracy and fix any reliability issues. |
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Food for though, In timed matches, speed counts, and the faster you can get the next shot off on the mark, the better your over all score is going to be. Simply put, with more frame fixed type forward weight on the pistol, the recoil of the pistol is better tamed which allows faster following up shots (less perceived recoil). Will the FLRG directly affect accuracy, not in a blue moon, But when it comes to recoil reducing spring'g to a more refined degree and getting more frame forward weight, hands down FLRG is the cheapest add- on ticket on the market for reducing felt recoil. So, it's not that single shot I am focusing on here, it’s the 4 full mags down range in less than a min (with mag changes) where every thing becomes the true proving ground, and where the FLRG has proven it’s worth time and time again. |
What about bull barrels and FLGRs on 1911s? |
As far as I know, bull barrels use the slide as the bushing. They use a shouldered guide rod to retain the spring, the FLGR is not a requirement on a bull barrel. |
No, it's not a requirement, but since the first third of the conical barrel is flush with the slide which is locked to the frame via rails and guide rod, I am wondering if that is in fact an improvement. |
Thats a good question that I don't know the answer to?? |
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Bull barrels are used to relocate normal slide precipitating weight from the slide to the frame (non precipitating), and even to add additional forward muzzle weight to reduce recoil. With a reverse plug, you need to preload the spring before the slide is installed on the frame, and due to this, FLRG are used since they can be cross pinned to retain the spring is a preloaded position. Granted that you wouldn't need a FLRG with a reversed plug, it would just be a bitch to install the slide to the frame without it. |
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Some time ago someone posted a link where a few std barrel normal config 1911s in 45 acp were set in a ransom rest and the shooter swapped out the flgr for a gi type. No increase in accuracy was seen and no loss of accuracy was notted. there not needed and dont really do much but adjust the operators headspace and timing. Just like an accuwedge for an AR only more money. |
Excuse me????? What do you think the end of the guide rod rests against????? It pushes against the barrel portion where the swing link retainer is..................... |
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Forget about the end of the rod, lets talk about the spring that is being retained by the bottom of the barrel and the frame dust cover points. Someone care to explain to me how a spring that can rotate/side bend with different parts of it influencing different barrel lock up angles against the barrel bushing at any given time wouldn't effect accuracy? Granted I’ give it to you if you say that a tolerances of .004 or less fitted bushing would not make that big of a difference, but since we are often see quotes that people prefer that the barrel bushing be able to removed by hand, it puts the differences well into the .010 range or better with slop, and make a big difference of where the barrel is pointing in regards to the slide from spring insert/rotation influences, especially on a barrel that has not been fitted to the slide.  |
Bob, you might want to take a 1911 apart and look at it. The guide rod rests against the frame, not the barrel. Take one apart, put the barrel in position with the slide stop installed and get back to me
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Sure, anyone would be able to tell you that there is no room for the spring to move once assembled. The channel is to tight for the spring to kink. |
I can be the FIRST-EVER DOCUMENTED case of a full length guide rod making a difference in reliability. I had a Colt 1991A1 that wouldn't feed my department's duty ammo 100%. (back in the day...hydroshoks) and after I installed a Wilson Combat shok-buff kit, I was set. So there..... |
So you still think the guide rod touches the barrel? Then why does Wilson Combat sell a special guide rod (dwyer?) with an extention of the back to contact the link? This is their fix for a barrel not getting pushed into battery, normally it does not touch. |
As I have never used the Dwyer Group geegaw, I cannot honestly say what it does or does not do..................... |
My point was that a special guide rod was designed to touch the barrel, the stock one does not touch the link or tangs. Click the STI gun on the page below, hide the frame and slide and watch. It's close, but like the real thing it doesn't touch anywhere. http://www.m1911.org/full_1911desc.htm |
Looking at my own guide rod, I see it goes ahead of the slide release rod thru the slide & cannot touch the frame with the end of the guide rod. Now, if I'm looking at it incorrectly, please tell me how............ 
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I guess I should have noted you need to use the frame, using the slide will give you a false reading. Take the frame, put the barrel in position and install the slide stop. Push the barrel rearward into "Battery" and set the guide rod in the frame channel and push it back until it hits the frame. There is about 1/8" between the GR and the barrel link. I'll take some photos when I get home. |
Well, I did this very thing tonight in cleaning my Springfield & you, sir, are indeed absolutely correct!!!!!!  This is a perfect example of why *I* try to be polite when arguing in arfcom.......... You're still wrong on FLGR's not being better though.............. 
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I agree and I apologize if I got a little hot :) I normally make it a point to open to others views. I still say that I was trying to show that it is a personal choice to run a FLGR and not because they work better. |
Can't; that's classified.
Then how does your 1911 work w/o a guide rod???????? |
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| I've got a older Kimber that had theFLGR in it stock, shot it that way for the last 5-6 years... Very accurate. Recently put a EGW bushing on it (Much better fit) and NO FLGR, GI set up this time around.. Even more accurate (probably because of the tight fitting bushing) but no problems I'm sold..No more FLGR's for me.... |
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from an article i read today... i found it interesting (and personally don't believe in ANY benefit from a FLGR) The standard recoil spring guide supports 1.5' of the spring. The recoil spring plug supports another 1.4". The spring is compressed 2.25" when the gun is assembled. A relaxed GI spring is 6" long. Therefore, 0.85" of the spring is not supported and the maximum it could flex is about 0.25" from either the dustcover or the barrel. I'm sorry. I must be missing something, but could that 0.25" of "free floating" spring possibly matter? Let's look at another aspect. None of the present catalogs make any claims for accuracy improvement, although I recall that some of them once did. However, if you ask most shooters, they'll tell you that guide rods improve accuracy. As part of another test I had a brand new Springfield Trophy Match. Now I'm a real fan of that gun and think it represents one of the best buys in gundom. They've always been good shooters: reliable and accurate. They also happen to come with a two piece full-length recoil spring guide. So the Trophy Match was mounted in the Ransom Rest and we shot five 10 shot groups at 25 yds. with Black Hills 230 gr. JHP ammo. Here are the results. The average was 1.886". Then, without removing the frame from the Ransom Rest, the guide rod was replaced with a GI part. The same recoil spring was used. Same song, second verse. The average was 1.718". |
You'd have that much variation with the ammo, IMO. A better test would be Federal Gold Medal Match ammo or similiar. |