[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Why the 1911 (Page 1 of 2)
Posted: 3/22/2006 8:04:36 PM EDT
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While I certainly understand the historical significance of the 1911, I fail to understand it's continued popularity and tactical devotion. We live in a wonderful age of technology. With the advent of polymer framed, extremely durable, and accurate handguns, I find no logic with the 1911 design as "the best" fighting handgun available. Why do some carry an unnessarily heavy, all steel handgun with a nominal 7-8 round capacity while so many others can deliver similar (if not better) performance in a superior platform . In my opinion, as I am sure many will agree, handguns are typically utilized for personal defense at typical ranges of 25 yards. Combat accuracy at such distances are considered adequate in the 3 inch range. I've yet to own a Glock, and more recently a Springlfield XD45 that cannot meet or surpass this mark. As for caliber, certainly the .45 acp has proven itself, but this is not the gist of this post. I also own a Glock 10mm, with a documented 4300 rounds down range with no appreciable wear. Evidence of durability, which doubt any steel 1911 can touch. I could go on with MY OPINION, but I feel I have made the point. Many will make the meaningless claim polymer guns are "ugly", untraditional, and so on, but none come close to reality. That said, I am still baffled by all the press given to the 1911. |
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Why a small-block Chevy? Because it’s customizable and timeless… not too mention it’s proven record. In life and death, I choose a Glock. However, for fun at the range and pride of ownership, I will forever cherish my Clark customized 1911’s. Clarks are the TRUE masters of the 1911 craft. |
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1911s are like fine wine, they have matured with age. Todays better metals, cnc machining, fit and finish make the mid to high end 1911s excellent choices for todays handgunners. The 45 has a proven track record for over 100 years, what's not to like. I have owned a number of pistols but the 1911 just feels right in my hand. For me that's what counts.  gunfighter48 A 45 may not expand but it will never be smaller than .45. 
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For those of use that know how to shoot, we don't need a 15 rnd magazine. If we need more, we can do a mag change. When people ask why I carry a .45, I usually lock the slide back, take one of their .40 rounds and drop it through my barrel. What you rather get hit by, a sports car going 100 mph or a Mack Truck doing 85? When people ask why I carry a 1911, I tell them because I can. I have a warriors mentality. |
Sounds like you need to find a competent pistolsmith. |
No actually I don't. I own a Glock.
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Funny I can say exactly that about my 1911...... I would hardly call it obsolete the fact of the matter is that many of the design features incorporated into more modern pistol originated in the 1911. Would you call a mauser action obsolete??? I sure as hell wouldn't Just because something is old doesn't make it obsolete. My 1911 will do exactly what I need it to, hit what I'm aiming at every time I pull the trigger. Is there an attraction to owning a design that is a piece of history?.....of course. A finely designed pistol is timeless. Until we all have phasers all a pistol has to do is shoot straight and hit center mass. Beyond that it's all preference. This whole Glock vs. 1911 business is stupid and childish. They are both fine weapons. |
Maybe a Rubbermaid Engineer? Sorry, couldn't resist. Sig Sauer came out with a 1911 a couple of years ago. I guess they wanted to produce a gun on a sub-par platform. Sounds like a good business investment. |
Maybe you'd be interested in purchasing my Colt 1911 then? I promise it will work around 90% of the time, give or take 10%.
Yes, yes I would. Mausers became obsolete about 60 years ago for everything but killing ungulates. I own a Mauser--of my entire collection, it would be the very last thing I'd grab if the SHTF. Sorry if I come off as a smart ass. Nothing personal at all man. I just really wanted to like 1911s, but after several years of getting burned with them and having every malfunction in the book, I realized that maybe they just weren't the guns for me. My Glocks, on the other hand, functioned perfectly, every time, all the time. They're freaking tanks. And that's all that matters when it comes to handguns as far as I'm concerned.
I'll agree with you on this. If your 1911 works and you like it, by all means keep it. If not, buy a Glock  .
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Shame that a gun has to be sent from the box to a pistolsmith for "reliability" work. While they are decent pistols; a 1911 isnt my 1st choice for a duty gun. As said by a few people, the 1911 is more of an enthusiast's pistol |
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I will agree with the 1911 being an enthusiasts gun. That's not to say it can't or doesn't have a tactical role. In a tactical situation I personally would want a lighter pistol as well as the extra rounds. In that situation I feel the "Well I kow how to shoot so I don't need the extra rounds" excuse is bullshit. You never know when your aim may be a bit off or you may need to engage multiple targets. When I purchased my pistol (my first). I outlined my requirements. the 1911 fit them perfectly I have no CCW in my state so size isn't really an issue. I am a armchair commando so the weight isn't an issue. Also I'm a bit of a history nut, I love the backstory of the 1911. I also feel that it is a truly elegant design. P.S. my point regarding the mauser action is that it is still one of the absolute best bolt action designs out there. It's no longer a SHTF rifle as better rifles are available but I would hardly call it obsolete. |
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....In a tactical situation I personally would want a lighter pistol as well as the extra rounds. In that situation I feel the "Well I kow how to shoot so I don't need the extra rounds" excuse is bullshit. You never know when your aim may be a bit off or you may need to engage multiple targets. TWO WORDS---MAG CHANGE. More people should practice them. Shoot and Move, Shoot and Move. Anyone who has ever shot a Scandium .357 knows that lighter is not always better. Ok, I went to the extreme on that one. Buy what you want and learn how to operate it. |
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I was more referring to a lighter pistol in the event I would have to carry it on a duty belt 8-10 hours a day. As far as mag changes I would still want to be able to delay that change-out as long as possible. 15 rounds in the magazine is always going to be better than 8 rounds. |
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I'd say the 1911 is more than an enthusiast’s gun; many LE and Mil units are going back to it. The thumb-safety and SA trigger and point-ability will always make it great. And no, you don’t have to have it worked on to make it shoot great. But if someone IS having functionality problems with one, they should have it massaged by someone that knows what they are doing. Every 1911 I buy goes straight to Clark’s for an accuracy job/reliability package before I shoot it. Not because it won’t work, but because it will work better when I get it back. |
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As soon as someone else designs another pistol that doesn't feel like an Acme brick in my hand, doesn't take a a day and a half to dicharge from the time I start pulling the trigger, and doesn't require me to contort my wrist to some weird unnatural angle to get the sights on target, I'll buy it. The 1911 isn't obsolete - on the contrary, the thing was so fucking advanced that 95 years later there still hasn't been anyone able to top the design. |
. Funny description of the Glock. I personally don't have any of those problems with my ugly piece of Austrian plastic (with the exception of the "day and a half" thing, sort of), but funny! My Glock 19 Gen 3 actually points more naturally than my Colt and it fits me like a glove. Granted, I've trained with my Glock longer than my 1911, but I'm thinking maybe the 1911 is unnatural and you're just not used to the natural angle of the Glock .
Well, you're wrong about this, but that's your right under the First Amendment, at least until Hitlery takes over  .
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The 1911 is fairly finiky from what I can see. You might have it running at 98%, but change one thing (magazines, ammo, replace a part) and the gun drops to a 50-50 gun. Those arent odds I like in a CCW weapon.
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Here in Texas, where we like to kill people (just kidding), most departments issue Glocks. In my department 95% of the officers that choose to go buy there own duty weapon, go buy a 1911 (Kimber, Springfield, Colt, Para, and a few Sigs). The other 5% go to a Sigs, Berettas, and a couple of a wheel guns. Most SWAT teams carry 1911's for their stopping power. I know mine does. If you don't own a 1911, how can you comment on its reliability? My Springfield goes bang everytime I pull the trigger. Like I stated before, 8000 rounds and counting without any major failures. I wouldn't carry one on duty if I didn't trust it. I can sum this debate up with this next sentence. Those of you who think a Glock is better than a 1911 will never change the mind of us who know the 1911 is a better weapon. |
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Funny you immediately think that I was referring to Glocks when I wrote that - maybe your subconcious is admitting what you don't want to! 
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I'm hard headed, set in my ways, and a BIG smart ass. This is a Chevy vs. Ford debate. Like I said earlier, go out and by any weapon you choose and become proficient with it. Finally, I like cherry Kool-Aid. |
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Anyone old enough to remember life before the wonder nine learned to shoot centerfire pistol on a 1911 or a .357 with .38's. The wholesale introduction of the high cap double action 9mm did more to warp peoples perception as to what an 'adaquite' personal defence pistol was than any other factor. Never mind that the greatest all time 9mm is the M1935, people became convinced that single action was dangerous and could only be handeled by specially trained operators. The fact that many elite military and police units continued to use 1911's (and 1935's), didn't help John Q. Public's mind set. There are more companies producing 1911's then any other single pistol design and they just keep on comming. You know when foreign firms like Sig decide to copy an almost 100 year old design, there is still a healthy market for that pistol. S&W designed their own line of semi's, has a full custom shop for target shooters, and still decided to produce a 1911. Even second tier copycat companies like Norinco and Taurus have 1911's. This gun is NEVER going out of style. |
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While I have no experience shooting Glocks. IMO, its one of the ugliest guns ever made and didn't feel right in my hand. I personally like the 1911 because its very reliable, accurate, feels right, looks right and can be customizied in a wide variety of ways. I don't have the "Commando" type mentality alot of shooters on here have, where around every corner is a life or death shootout in the works, so if my 1911 jams once in a while(And it hasn't yet...) I don't sweat it. The chances of my 1911 jamming on me when I need it most is even slimmer than the chance of me actually needing my 1911 in a self defense situation. |
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My primary home defense gun is a Springfield MC Operator with an Insight M6 underneath it. In a mini-safe under the driver's seat of my car is a Glock 35 longslide. In my computer desk drawer is a Sig 220R. When I CCW, I carry a subcompact Springfield XD stainless. My wife prefers her USP9F. My revolvers are pretty much just toys. So there is room in my hobby for all sorts of handguns, and I think its kind of silly, for example, for someone with 3 Glocks to say 1911s suck or some guy who dumped $1500 into a Les Baer, and that's the only handgun he's ever owned, to say Glocks suck. I think people who own both and who shoot both regularly are most qualified to make an objective assessment. If I was down to just one handgun for all uses and all purposes, I think it would be the 1911. "Why" is a very valid question to ask when I make a statement like that. When you ask "why the 1911" I think you need to seperate emotion from hardware and consider them seperately. The head and the heart are both valid, but shouldn't be confused. 1. Emotion: alot of people, including myself, are emotionally attached to the long history of the 1911 and its uniquely American nature. I call it Harley Davidson syndrome-- you can argue with a Harley guy about how a Honda gets better gas mileage, isn't as prone to break, is less expensive, and on and on, and the Harley guy will look at you like you are an idiot and say "but its not a Harley", and that's all the explanation he's going to be able to give you. He's emotionally attached and you aren't going to change that with a few convenient facts. 1911s are like that too. When you grab a 1911 you are holding John M. Browning's most famous design, a marvel of engineering and ergonomics before the term ergonomics was even coined. You are holding a design that regularly battled the enemies of our country for forty years before being replaced by a 9mm from Italy in a political decision. More Medals of Honor have been won by our soldiers with a 1911 in their hands then with any other firearm. So, from an emotional standpoint, anything but a 1911 "just isn't a 1911." Its not rational, but not everything in life has to be. I feel sorry for a guy driving a '92 Toyota Camry who sneers at a '57 Chevy because his Camry won't break and gets better gas mileage. There's more to life than that. there are intangibles like the craftsmanship of a hand-checkered front strap, the flawless fitment of a match grade barrel bushing, the attention to detail in a custom gun like a Clark or YoBo. 2. But, if we take away emotion, we just have an objective hardware-to-hardware comparison. I still think the 1911 has alot going for it here. First and foremost is the excellent single-action trigger. I'm a trigger snob, I hate a long gritty trigger pull. I won't own a DAO pistol of any kind (the Glock is pre-cocked striker fired no matter how they advertise it to police departments). Pull the trigger on a nicely tuned 1911 and tell me what trigger is better. Find a handgun with a better trigger pull and reset, and I'll buy one. Second, ergonomics. As others have said, the gun points naturally. I'm a firm believer in using sights, I dont' like point shooting, but its nice when the sights are easy to use because they pop up in the right place very quickly after every shot. In a real gunfight, maybe I'd be excited and scared and my sight picture wouldn't be as good as I'm used to. Nice to know that the gun's ergonomics lend themselves to a good hit probability even if my sight picture isn't perfect. I can't really say that about my G35 even though I'm well used to it and have fired thousands of rounds through it. Third, low bore axis. My Sig 220R has a nice trigger and is darn reliable. And the recoil isn't bad at all. But the WAY it recoils is different from the 1911, the muzzle flips more and the gun rotates in your hands in a way the 1911 just doesn't. The HK USP45 is even worse. Quick, accurate followup shots are promoted by a low bore axis, leading to good practical accuracy. From a ransom rest a USP45 is probably just as accurate as my MC Operator. But due to the low bore axis I can put 3 shots accurately in center of mass faster with the 1911, so which gun is PRACTICALLY more accurate? I should mention that I give Glock and Beretta very high marks for having a low bore axis as well. The low bore axis is the best thing the Glock has going for it. Fourth, safety. The grip safety is a great idea. Its an active safety that you manipulate with your hand, but without realizing it. Its such a good idea that it is starting to make a comeback even on double-stack, polymer framed gun like the Springfield XD. The manual thumb safety is also the most natural active safety ever devised. It is so often copied that competing designs such as the slide mounted safties on Berettas and S&W autos (for one example) look foolish by comparison. When Taurus decided to make a blatant copy of the Beretta, the one thing they changed was moving the safety from the slide to the frame, right where the 1911s is. Fifth, versatility. Whether you want a full-on competition race gun, a tiny subcompact CCW hideout piece, a home defense gun, or something of historical value to collect, there is a 1911 out there that fits the bill. More companies are making more variations on this design than ever before. Whatever your handgun need, there is a 1911 out there that someone is making specifically to fill that need. Can't really say that about Glocks, Berettas, or HK's. Those come in small, medium, and large, but that's about it. In 2006, 1911s really "celebrate diversity". That's where I come out. 
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| A lot of people here accuse me of being a Kool-Aid drinker of one sort or another. That is not so. I like 1911s because for what I need to do, they work. There is no pistol that I find as ergonomic, and no pistol that I can shoot as well. I don't mind the weight on my belt because I wear a decent belt and holster. For me, the emotional attachment I have for 1911s did not come from history. It came from use. That I have come to appreciate the fine looks and artistry in metal that come with a custom 1911 is secondary. If I knew of a self defense arm that worked better for me I would buy several of them. I do not. The Glock is a fine weapon, but the grip angle is awkward for my wrist. I doubt I could even overcome that with training--my wrist just doesn't want to bend to that angle. |
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In no way did I intend to offend anyone's personal decision to carry/use a 1911, but rather to stir some interesting debate with my original post. I too, own 1911's, but these are typically relegated to the various shooting "games".....for reasons earlier stated, when things have the potential to get ugly, I tend to feel better arming myself with "ugly" (ie black polymer) guns. One point another made in replying to my post made the most sense when they alluded to the carrying of a 1911 was liking riding a Harley-Davidson. As a Harley owner, this hit home.......they have "soul". Shoot what works for you, and remember, all those who utilize this site are far and away better off than the "average joe" in keeping him/herself, their family, and our society safe. |
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AJNTSA This darned Glock vs. 1911 thread has been so done it's not even amusing any more. I was trained on a 1911 in the military. My Remington Rand went 100%. My CSM's Singer went 100%, too. Later on, we got Berettas. In my opinion, they sucked like a Hoover. I could qualify expert any day of the week, but the pistol just sucked. Again, that's my opinion. I used to own a Glock. I hated shooting it. It's unpleasant to shoot. If I don't like shooting something, I'm darned well not going to practice as much with it. I got myself a Colt. I liked it. I shot the hell out of it. I liked it so much, I got a Kimber. I didn't like that one so much. I wound up getting a Springfield 1911. I liked that one a lot more, but I decided to give Kimber another chance, so I traded it on another Kimber. I like that Kimber quite a bit. After that, I got on a weird Colt kick and got two more Colts. They're what I like. I'll probably buy another Colt this weekend. As it is, I generally shoot a couple hundred rounds through one of the 1911s in a week. I'm usually too busy to shoot more than that. I know what works, what I like, and what I'm going to practice, become confident in, and shoot well. I have a buddy who shoots Sigs. He and I shoot IDPA together. He still calls my 1911s "jammomatics" even though he has yet to see one of them malf. It's ok, though. I've seen his Sig have a stoppage. (I'll admit to at least one stovepipe, but he wasn't there that day) And lastly, I was down at McBride's the other day buying a Colt Series 70. There was a Texas Ranger in there shopping and in his holster, I noticed a 1911. Seems to work for him. Now, all that said, if you want to carry a Glock, more power to you. I really don't care. Why do you care what I carry? If I want to carry a Raven .25 ACP, that's my business. Is this "flavor of the week" vs. 1911 advocacy thing some kind of weird compensation for some inadequacy or something? I swear this comes up every two or three days. If it matters, I've been known to carry a HP-35 and a Walther PPK in stainless before, too. I still carry the PPK in the summer months. Cheers, kk7sm |
It's a classic. That's all. It's also a great platform for making a great pistol out of. It's a piss poor platform to make a ~ $500 combat pistol, however. Even when you bump up to Sig and HK prices, that's JUST when you're starting to get serviceable (read: low end) 1911s. I think I've read on here that a Glock is for someone that has to carry a gun, and a 1911 is for someone that likes to carry a gun. That's a pretty telling statement, actually, and fairly accurate. 1911s are for hobbyists for the most part. Modern designs have them beat in durability and reliability, however. Also ease of takedown and cleaning, all necessities for a combat weapon. I saw that, happy that my new SA 1911 is now feeding properly. It's my current favorite pistol, but the 226 is a better combat pistol, and I spent less on it than I did the 1911. |
And both are good! Actually, I don't own a Colt 1911, but if I ever get a full house custom built, it will be on a Colt Series 70. |
| I am not a 1911 junkie but I love the ones that I have. I also like my Glock, XD and the USP (used to have USP) they were all three great pistols but NONE of those polymer framed beuties shoot as accurate as my 1911s or CZ97B. I think it is a bit overboard to say 1911s are out dated. Try using a Full sized G21 vs a 5" 1911 concealed and in my opinion the 5" 1911 is no problem but the G21 even though doable is a bit of work. My new XD .45 is great but not as accurate as my 1911 and my 1911 is just as reliable as my XD. |
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1)Reliability 2)Easily concealed with its thin profile 3)Stopping power of the 45acp 4)personal taste 5)Because you don't want to be one of those annoying Glock people. 6)learn to reload 7)Accuracy http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e376/avidshooter/pistola006.jpg 8)Beauty. Who else wants to make sweet, sweet love to thier pistol at night? |
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Another thing to remember before we went to the m9 ,the 308 brass could be cut down,and you have the .45 acp brass as well! Also what has not been mentioned is the versitality of the platform(much like the Ar/15)you have a 10 mil 1911,and you buy a match grade OLY .40 S&W barrell ,and you'r ready to go! Buy a colt barrell ,slide,bushing and ejector(pinned in) and you ready to go(new recoil spring sugested)! You got a 10 mil,40 cal,and .45 with one platform!! Can you do that(forgot the 40 corbon) with a sig or glock? Bob
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I'll weigh in here. I'm no worshipper of ANY design. I want what works best for me. No Kool-Aid here. As soon as somebody makes a gun that I can afford, feels more natural in my hand than my 1911, points better, has a better trigger, and has a decent caliber, I'll buy it. Until then, I'll keep holding my obselete old gun. Of course, Springfield can't seem to get a set of nightsights right to save their lives, so right now, I'm carrying plastic. 
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The 1911 is Crude, but it'll still kill you. It's popular with people who can't or are too lazy to learn a modern trigger system. I like my 1911s plenty. But when it comes to protecting my life, I'll take somthing more reliable and with NO manual safety. To each his own.  |