Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login
Posted: 11/17/2005 12:04:05 PM EDT
I was looking for a 1911 for CCW and was thinking about a Para Nite-Hawg. The gun store person tried to dissuade me from carrying any SA 1911 for CCW as she felt the "cocked and locked" method was more prone to accidental discharge if you ever did have to draw. She likes and carries the LDA. BTW, she is a LEO. I'd like to hear more knowledgeable opinions on the subject. I originally intended to carry a Wilson CQB Compact, but I still think it may be a tad big. What are your thoughts on Para in general? And specifically, the Nite-Hawg and LDA? Thanks for the input.

Blake
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 12:25:05 PM EDT
I'm not crazy about the Paras. Built up a Para a few years ago off a gunsmith frame and there were a problems with it that had to be fixed before completion. Just finished with one for a customer that had feeding problems. Between that new power extractor being way too strong and a lousy ramp angle it wasn't my favorite gun of the week. I don't like the LDA period, I know I'll crap for this but I don't.
I carry a Officers Model daily cocked and locked and I see no problem with it. Like any weapon you're going to carry it's all about training with that weapon. Properly trained you won't have a problem. Remember that most agencies want a long double action pull for their officers due alot to lack of training
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 12:32:26 PM EDT
Paras are of generally poor quality. If you want a good hicap, pay the extra money and get an STI.

Cocked and locked IS more dangerous. To you, but more importantly to whatever you are shooting at. Keep your finger off the trigger until you are on target and you will have NO issues (unless you have an obstruction in your holster and stuff the pistol in it with the thumb safety off--and the obstruction pulls the trigger--happened at Frontsight a few years back and is an issue with any pistol).

Link Posted: 11/17/2005 12:35:06 PM EDT
I have had absolutley no problems with my PARA TAC-FOUR.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 12:43:22 PM EDT
Most of the really short 1911 variants are prone to reliability problems. There is a limit to how short you can make a 1911 barrel before they just don't run very well.
The new Colt Defenders are outstanding, I have a friend with one and it runs great, shoots great and is damned accurate for it's size. If I were looking for a CCW sized 1911, I think the Defender would be a strong contender.
C&L is the only way to carry a 1911, it's safe and effective with training and practice.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 1:25:28 PM EDT

she felt the "cocked and locked" method was more prone to accidental discharge if you ever did have to draw


This subject has been dealt with in great detail here and on other forums. Search a bit and I think you'll get some good insight.

I carry cocked and locked for two reasons (vs some sort of DA pistol). One, I like the added security of a manual safety. Massad Ayoob has reported some interesting results about how long it takes a bad guy to shoot you with your own gun in the event it gets taken from you in a fight. On a DA pistol, it's something like 1-2 seconds. With a pistol that has a manual safety, it's more like 17 seconds. I can run 100 yards in 15 seconds, even adding in some zig-zagging to make myself harder to hit. If a bad guy can hit me running at 100 yards with my 3" 1911, I deserve it. As an added bonus, if a child ever somehow comes across my weapon (God forbid), he or she is much less likely to be able to make it go bang.

Second, I find a manual safety to be much safer in actual use. I've had two inadvertent discharges on the range, and both were due to my undisciplined finger getting into the trigger guard during the draw. Both resulted in merely scaring the crap out of me. I'll admit this is a training issue, but I think it's just inherently safer to have to take off the safety before the weapon will fire. In the 5,000 rounds fired since switching to a 1911, I have had zero accidental discharges. Some of this is certainly due to much better training on my part to keep my stupid finger out of the trigger guard, but it may also be due to the safety of ... having a safety.

Can't address the Para question, but I'm watching the other answers with interest.
Link Posted: 11/17/2005 1:35:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/17/2005 1:36:14 PM EDT by JMag]
Paras, like all other mass-produced guns, have their share of problems...some of the time. In general, most should, like most all other mass-produced guns, run...sometimes with a bit of tinkering. You could substitute into the previous sentence cars, blenders, computers, etc.

That said, my Para Limited is going on ten years old (close to it) and has NEVER bobbled.
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 4:12:39 AM EDT
I worked at a gunshop and had nothing but problems with the Paras in the case, and dealing with Para to try and get them fixed was even more of a nightmare. If a firearm can't survive being finger-fucked by customers and dry-fired occasionally, do you really want to rely on it to save your life?
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 6:34:22 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Blake:
I was looking for a 1911 for CCW and was thinking about a Para Nite-Hawg. The gun store person tried to dissuade me from carrying any SA 1911 for CCW as she felt the "cocked and locked" method was more prone to accidental discharge if you ever did have to draw. She likes and carries the LDA. BTW, she is a LEO. I'd like to hear more knowledgeable opinions on the subject. I originally intended to carry a Wilson CQB Compact, but I still think it may be a tad big. What are your thoughts on Para in general? And specifically, the Nite-Hawg and LDA? Thanks for the input.

Blake


First, regarding her comments about condition 1 carry... ask her if she recommends the Glock. If she says yes ask her how she can do so when she doesn't recommend SA 1911s. Both guns require ~5lbs of pressure to the trigger to go bang and the 1911 has a manual safety.

As for Para quality, it is one of the best around IMO. I have two of their guns and have shot many others. I consider them a "tier 1" sidearm and in the same category as Glock, Sig and HK.

I do like the LDAs and will probably end up getting one in the next year or so, but I am a die hard SA type guy. Bottom line is you have to get the gun that fits your hand and has the features YOU are comfortable with. I know lots of folks not comfy with SA carry. Nothing wrong with that. It's an very personal choice and if an LDA, DA/SA, DAO, etc. is what you like and shoot well... then drive on!
Link Posted: 11/18/2005 12:15:30 PM EDT
Guys,

Thanks for the input. I think if I want a small gun, I'll go with a Walther PPK/S or Beretta Cheetah in .380. As for 1911's, I'm gonna stick with Wilson like I originally planned. Thanks again.

Blake
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:59:33 AM EDT
Kind of off the original subject regarding Para Pistols. Cocked and Locked is just as as safe as any as long as you maintain your familiarity and training with the weapon. Ofcourse that goes without saying when talking about any weapon system.
About the Para's, I owned a P12.45 some time ago. The aluminum frame cracked while using standard ammo.......no plus P. Para's customer service at the time was of no help and I sold the Pistol to someone who was going to strip it for parts. I suggest Colt, Smith or Springfield for a 1911 model. You can't go wrong,in my opinion. Good Luck, Good Shooting!
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:58:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By El_Cid:
... I consider them a "tier 1" sidearm and in the same category as Glock, Sig and HK.



Link Posted: 12/18/2005 3:50:40 PM EDT
Before I knew better, I bought a P14.

Nothing but problems with broken parts (firing pin, extractor, barrel bushing) and poor quality (sear and hammer pin holes were oversized, cosmetic and structural defects in the frame, black paint on the gun instead of bluing or parkerizing).

I would not buy anything made by para. More issues: cast frame, poor fit of slide to frame, and barrel.

For CCW, a doublestack .45 is not going to be the most comfortable gun.

Suggest you consider an alum framed commander length single stack, such as a Colt Lightweigth Commander, or Kimber Procarry.

Lastly "cocked and locked" 1911s are very safe. You have to 1/grip the gun properly to overcome the grip safety 2/disengage the thumb safety and then 3/apply ~5lbs pressure to the trigger. Yes a 1911 is cocked, but the sear is locked

Glocks require only step 3/apply ~5 lbs pressure to the trigger.

Most people don't know that Glocks are always partially cocked, that is, the striker is always partially to the rear before you press the trigger. You just can't see it.

Do a web search for "Glock" and "accidental shooting". You will find many.

Both Glocks and 1911s are very safe until you have operator error involved
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 7:55:44 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By El_Cid:
... I consider them a "tier 1" sidearm and in the same category as Glock, Sig and HK.





Naturally you are free to have your own opinion, but mine is based on years of shooting. I have two Para's and neither has ever let me down. When I first got my P14 some 12 years ago it shot better than my uncle's customized Gold Cup w/ adjustable sights. It and the P12 are my daily carry pieces and I would reach for them in an emergency before any other handgun (including Sig, HK, etc.)

Lots of companies use investment casting and there is nothing wrong with it. In some cases it is stronger than forged, so unless you are an expert in metallurgy... you are not going to convince me a Para is "weak". Every Para I have shot has been as accurate and reliable as any other gun could hope to be. I've shot plenty of Sigs, Glocks and HKs, and even own a couple still. So unless you have something to add to the discussion... your opinion holds less value than Confederate money.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:02:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By El_Cid:
Every Para I have shot has been as accurate and reliable as any other gun could hope to be. I've shot plenty of Sigs, Glocks and HKs, and even own a couple still. So unless you have something to add to the discussion... your opinion holds less value than Confederate money.



Every Para I ever sold or had in the case shit the bed. Every Para a shooter has run when I have been SOing them at an IDPA match has had nothing but problems.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 8:42:35 AM EDT
Carry one on duty every day (LDA an SA), also a firearms instructor as well as SWAT. I have many many many rounds thru both my Paras and never had and issue. I'm speaking from personal expernce not "I heard", "I saw", "I read" or my brothers sisters cousin uncle had one. They are accurate, reliable, and one hell of a gun. Someone name me one 1911 manufacutre that has NEVER had a single gun returned and I'll kiss your ass. People have problems with factory guns because they tinker with them and try to improve or upgrade a perfictley fine weapon and screw it up. Then its the guns fault. Paras must be doing something right beause FBI HRT carries the P-14-45 SA for years.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 9:59:56 AM EDT
I own a Para Black Watch SSP that has the LDA trigger and the power extractor for almost a year now and have already sent over 1000+ rounds through it without a single problem. I shoot factory ammo but mostly reloads with an unjacket lead bullet ( no jacketed ammo indoors) and this pistol is accurate with any ammo I've put through it. I would not hesitate in purchasing another Para pistol, just savong my pennies for a hi-cap Para. I love my Para and that's all.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 11:12:49 AM EDT
I've only had one ParaOrdanance-a P12 I bought many years ago. I bought it because they seemed to be the darling of all the gun magazines. However, It had continual functioning problems and I eventually traded out of it.

I'm not sure if the quality has improved with the later guns but
there are so many good 1911s out there I don't think I would ever take another chance
on one.

Concerning the cocked and locked situation. For open carry I don't mind it but for concealment
carry I feel more comfortable with a double action or DA only design gun.

However, thats just me as there are many people who safely carry the 1911 concealed.
Just make sure you're proficent in handling them and that YOU feel comfortable in
carrying them and you'll be ok.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:43:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By El_Cid:

Originally Posted By Trumpet:

Originally Posted By El_Cid:
... I consider them a "tier 1" sidearm and in the same category as Glock, Sig and HK.





Naturally you are free to have your own opinion, but mine is based on years of shooting.



As is mine.


I have two Para's and neither has ever let me down. When I first got my P14 some 12 years ago it shot better than my uncle's customized Gold Cup w/ adjustable sights. It and the P12 are my daily carry pieces and I would reach for them in an emergency before any other handgun (including Sig, HK, etc.)


About eight years ago, I had a P14. Biggest POS handgun I've owned. It jammed more than my Beretta 87 (and that thing was atrocious). It NEVER shot right.


Lots of companies use investment casting and there is nothing wrong with it.


I never said there was.


some cases it is stronger than forged, so unless you are an expert in metallurgy... you are not going to convince me a Para is "weak".


Wasn't trying to.


I've shot plenty of Sigs, Glocks and HKs, and even own a couple still.


Likewise, and they're head and shoulders waaaaaay above the Para I had.


So unless you have something to add to the discussion... your opinion holds less value than Confederate money.


Considering a CSA $10 is going for about $15 on fleabay, that's not too shabby.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:54:33 PM EDT
Call a decent pistolsmith and ask him to build off of a Para. Then call another one after the first hangs up on you.

Chuck Rogers being the exception. He is known for being able to perform the miracle of "making Paras function."
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 5:41:14 PM EDT
I'm very pleased with my alloy framed commander, the "LTC".
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 5:36:04 AM EDT
Y'all crack me up. There are plenty of very good smiths who will and do work on Para's, quite happily I might add.

You might try the 1911 forums where there is more discussion on just the pistols... I've even seen gunsmiths rave about Para's. This site seems heavily slanted against Para which is really interesting. There is no such thing as a manufacturer who has not had some problems with their guns. They are mechanical decices and can fail no matter whose marque is on the side.

http://forums.1911forum.com/index.php


http://forum.m1911.org/index.php?
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:46:03 PM EDT
I've got a Hi-Cap 45 and it functions more reliably than my Kimber Raptor, which I think is great, by the way. I shoot 230 grain FMJ rounds exclusively and thoroughly clean the pistol and magazines every time I fire them. No complaints from me about Para Ord.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 4:50:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/22/2005 5:00:51 PM EDT by JaredB]

Originally Posted By Blake:
Guys,

Thanks for the input. I think if I want a small gun, I'll go with a Walther PPK/S or Beretta Cheetah in .380. As for 1911's, I'm gonna stick with Wilson like I originally planned. Thanks again.

Blake



If you are looking at those you might want to consider a SIG P232 or a P239 both excellent pistols the 239 is a available in 9mm .357 sig and .40 S&W
Top Top