Posted: 9/15/2013 8:00:43 AM EDT
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I recently purchased a 1911 from the Estate of a private collection, this person collected GI type firearms for over 40 years, which included 2 Singer 1911's. Anyways I bought a couple of the 1911's. One of them appears to be an Ithaca frame and slide and rebuilt at the Springfield Arsenal. It's interesting that USMC is painted on it, not sure if that is something that was done during it's service or done later by owner. I don't understand the serial #, 4 digit followed by NM, does this mean National Match? A little further to right past serial # and above trigger is stamped SA. It doesn't appear to be a match gun. Also has N M stamped on barrel. I can't find any other markings on barrel. On the inside of the slide there is a stamped "S" and then a few spaces down is stamped "C C", also a "M" and a "L". The exterior markings are flaming cannonballs on both frame & slide and a geometric design on left trigger guard, these all seem to be Ithaca markings. I posted this to see if any 1911 guru could give some insight on this weapon.
http://tinypic.com/1r544qz9 |
| Need pics sounds confusing is the frame marked m1911a1 us army and I United States property ? Does it have standard gi sights or adjustable ? With the info you give sounds like a cobbled together mismatch but need pics to be sure. An Ithaca would have much more than a 4 digit sn and is the nm a true serial suffix or is it just near the serial? |
| I think that's a military match pistol made by SA. Possibly they re-numbered a frame for the job but I don't recognize what frame it was before the rebuild. I'd lay money on it shooting well. Taking another look, I think it was a M1911 frame that had the finger-reliefs cut into it (behind the trigger like the M1911A1). |
| I agree with you, I believe this a rebuild done for match, maybe done in 1950's? It just doesn't have serial # on bushing, barrel or the "T" stamp for targeting. The frame and slide have the Ithaca WW2 correct markings, flaming cannon balls, and geometric design on left side trigger guard. |
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I recently purchased a 1911 from the Estate of a private collection, this person collected GI type firearms for over 40 years, which included 2 Singer 1911's. Anyways I bought a couple of the 1911's. One of them appears to be an Ithaca frame and slide and rebuilt at the Springfield Arsenal. It's interesting that USMC is painted on it, not sure if that is something that was done during it's service or done later by owner. I don't understand the serial #, 4 digit followed by NM, does this mean National Match? A little further to right past serial # and above trigger is stamped SA. It doesn't appear to be a match gun. Also has N M stamped on barrel. I can't find any other markings on barrel. On the inside of the slide there is a stamped "S" and then a few spaces down is stamped "C C", also a "M" and a "L". The exterior markings are flaming cannonballs on both frame & slide and a geometric design on left trigger guard, these all seem to be Ithaca markings. I posted this to see if any 1911 guru could give some insight on this weapon. http://tinypic.com/1r544qz9 The slide is definitely not an Ithaca or any WWII period 1911a1. The slide serrations are not 90 degrees. It could be a 1960s USGI replacement slide. Don't know what to think about the frame, but that is not an original serial number or SA built NM gun. Sights are not correct for any USGI match gun. Looks like a civilian built pistol from the 70's. The grips and trigger are what SA used in their NM pistols though. |
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The slide is definitely not an Ithaca or any WWII period 1911a1. The slide serrations are not 90 degrees. It could be a 1960s USGI replacement slide. Don't know what to think about the frame, but that is not an original serial number or SA built NM gun. Sights are not correct for any USGI match gun. Looks like a civilian built pistol from the 70's. The grips and trigger are what SA used in their NM pistols though. Quoted:
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I recently purchased a 1911 from the Estate of a private collection, this person collected GI type firearms for over 40 years, which included 2 Singer 1911's. Anyways I bought a couple of the 1911's. One of them appears to be an Ithaca frame and slide and rebuilt at the Springfield Arsenal. It's interesting that USMC is painted on it, not sure if that is something that was done during it's service or done later by owner. I don't understand the serial #, 4 digit followed by NM, does this mean National Match? A little further to right past serial # and above trigger is stamped SA. It doesn't appear to be a match gun. Also has N M stamped on barrel. I can't find any other markings on barrel. On the inside of the slide there is a stamped "S" and then a few spaces down is stamped "C C", also a "M" and a "L". The exterior markings are flaming cannonballs on both frame & slide and a geometric design on left trigger guard, these all seem to be Ithaca markings. I posted this to see if any 1911 guru could give some insight on this weapon. http://tinypic.com/1r544qz9 The slide is definitely not an Ithaca or any WWII period 1911a1. The slide serrations are not 90 degrees. It could be a 1960s USGI replacement slide. Don't know what to think about the frame, but that is not an original serial number or SA built NM gun. Sights are not correct for any USGI match gun. Looks like a civilian built pistol from the 70's. The grips and trigger are what SA used in their NM pistols though. Thanks for the feedback, so I take it that the ithaca marking on slide is a forgery? I paid $500 for this weapon, still feel ok about |
| The flaming cannon balls are Ordnance Department stamps and have nothing to do with Ithaca. All USGI fireams had them. The rear sight is incorrect for a USGI NM pistol. The slanted grooves are suspect. The USMC "stamp" is almost certainly a fake. I suspect, but can't prove, this is a 1960's basement rebuild. The frame may be legit, after that I'm not so sure. That said, you don't have that much money wrapped up in it. It may be a good shooter, take to the range and let us know. |
| Thats interesting I thought the flaming cannon ball was ithaca inspector mark and crossed cannons was ordinance mark. I seen a chart that had it listed that way. Thanks for the input. I'm looking forward to shooting. I had to use bushing wrench on it, very tight. |
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Is it just me or does something about that pistol look "longer" than usual? It almost looks like a longslide. The dust cover seems weird to me, too, for some reason.
The flaming pisspot may have been added by someone to the slide using an aftermarket stamp. I remember seeing ads in Shotgun News for metal stamps to "restore" military guns a while back. The serrations on the front of the grip, the S/N, and the lack of U.S. Property marks make me think that this was a commercial gun that someone put together, got creative with and stamped it up. Too many red flags here to think that it was ever a USGI piece. Either way, I think you did fine for $500. If nothing else, it'll be a good shooter. |
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I recently purchased a 1911 from the Estate of a private collection, this person collected GI type firearms for over 40 years, which included 2 Singer 1911's. Anyways I bought a couple of the 1911's. One of them appears to be an Ithaca frame and slide and rebuilt at the Springfield Arsenal. It's interesting that USMC is painted on it, not sure if that is something that was done during it's service or done later by owner. I don't understand the serial #, 4 digit followed by NM, does this mean National Match? A little further to right past serial # and above trigger is stamped SA. It doesn't appear to be a match gun. Also has N M stamped on barrel. I can't find any other markings on barrel. On the inside of the slide there is a stamped "S" and then a few spaces down is stamped "C C", also a "M" and a "L". The exterior markings are flaming cannonballs on both frame & slide and a geometric design on left trigger guard, these all seem to be Ithaca markings. I posted this to see if any 1911 guru could give some insight on this weapon. http://tinypic.com/1r544qz9 Well, since no one else asked, I will... Where are the Singers now? Are they going to hit the market? |
| I ran across some imformation dealing with a similar looking frame. Stolen and recovered USGI 1911's were given a four digit serial number upon being returned to service. It looks to me like someone ground off the old serial number and US Government markings. The slide is not USGI or a replacement unit. I've seen racks and racks of real USGI bullseye pistols and all of them had vertical cocking serations. |
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Having owned several documented usgi nm pistols none of the markings are at all consistent with a true match pistol. This is someone's cobble job. It may run or shoot accurately but has zero collector value
The flaming bomb while an ordnance stamp was not applied to pistols in this manner. The gov property mark is removed and the serial number bears no relation to the original ( which was likely buffed off during heavy handed refinish. Sorry to say the pistol is worth maybe 700 bucks at best |
| U.S. National Match pistols built by SA in the '60s certainly did have the slanted serrations on their Colt-made NM slides. Check 'cool gun site' to see a number of examples. It's an intriguing pistol and worth the $500. Like I said, see how it shoots. With that fully-hardened slide, you can shoot it 'til the cows come home. |
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$500 was a fair price for a blaster pistol. It did not leave a US military arsenal configured like that, and anyone using it on the National Match Course would have been handicapping himself (as well as violating NMC pistol rules, i.e. incorrect slide stop). The rear sight would be useless as it is not adjustable for windage nor elevation.
It looks like the frame started as a commercial Colt 1911 that someone bubba'ed the finger reliefs in. Is the frame stamped "United States Property" on the left? The front strap checkering appears GI, but there is no "T" stamping to indicate it left a depot as a full target gun. The serial numbering is odd. The Ordnance bursting bomb stamps were probably bubba'ed in using a Numrich after-market stamp. The bursting bomb on the frame behind the right grip is incorrect (should have been an Ordnance acceptance stamp), and the one on the slide is double-struck. The slide retraction grooves are raked but incorrect for a Drake or Colt (possibly a commercial Springfield Army from the under-slide inspection letters). I don't see Ithaca roll-marks. |
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$500 was a fair price for a blaster pistol. It did not leave a US military arsenal configured like that, and anyone using it on the National Match Course would have been handicapping himself (as well as violating NMC pistol rules, i.e. incorrect slide stop). The rear sight would be useless as it is not adjustable for windage nor elevation. It looks like the frame started as a commercial Colt 1911 that someone bubba'ed the finger reliefs in. Is the frame stamped "United States Property" on the left? The front strap checkering appears GI, but there is no "T" stamping to indicate it left a depot as a full target gun. The serial numbering is odd. The Ordnance bursting bomb stamps were probably bubba'ed in using a Numrich after-market stamp. The bursting bomb on the frame behind the right grip is incorrect (should have been an Ordnance acceptance stamp), and the one on the slide is double-struck. The slide retraction grooves are raked but incorrect for a Drake or Colt (possibly a commercial Springfield Army from the under-slide inspection letters). I don't see Ithaca roll-marks. Thanks for the input, did you notice the marking on the left trigger guard? it's a geometric design that matches a mark that I found on a chart for 1911 markings. The design matches one of the Ithaca inspector marks according to the chart. That's what led me to believe it was originally an Ithaca. There is no "United States Property" mark on the weapon. It's kind of a letdown. I had hoped this weapon had some type of historical significance with the military. I was an 0311 in the Marine Corps, I guess the USMC sucked me in. Thanks again for feedback and look forward to firing this weapon of steel & wood 
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It almost looks like someone tried to build a replica USGI 1911 ball gun. I don't know why the US Property mark was ground off, but the parts are worth at least what you paid so for a plinker you did well. I guess not surprising the collection was over 35 1911's, mostly mixmasters, but pretty neat. |