Posted: 1/28/2013 6:21:17 AM EDT
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Sell me on it. Why the hard on for the 1911. As a battle pistol, something you'd throw on your kit and go to war with, why go with the 1911 over something like a Glock 17, or Sig P226?
My main concerns are: - Less firepower at 8 rounds, granted its .45 ACP. Glock is 17, Sig 15, of +P defensive loads. - Weight, think it's like 41-42oz with mag, not including ammo. Crazy. I could take a Glock 17 and a medium frame tactical knife for that weight. Please help indoctrinate me into the lust for the 1911. Thank you! |
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It was designed by the most gifted firearms creator in American history, if not human history.
It had excellent ergonomics, accuracy, and reliability for its time, and set the standard to which military service pistols were compared for the next 100 years. It was designed to fire a cartridge that was developed out of whole cloth to be a manstopper, specifically gentlemen who were the spiritual forerunners of today's PCP freaks and who had a fondness for long knives and disembowelment. It was built for decades by a company whose reputation stretches back well into the 19th century and is credited for helping tame the West. It served with distinction in two world wars, several smaller ones, and countless other conflicts. It is easily detail stripped and reassembled using nothing but its own parts and possibly the rim of a .45 ACP case. It has excelled in competition due to its potential for accuracy and its inherent shootability. With thousands of aftermarket parts, it can be customized for every purpose, to fit every hand, and still use the same two types of magazines as every other 1911. It has been in continuous production for over 100 years and is turned out today by more companies than ever (something on the order of 50). It is the first choice of many, many people, even today, for carry, competition, and duty use, and is still in military service among some units. It is a true American classic firearm. (With all that said, I'm not sure I would pick a 1911 over a P226 or G17 if I knew I was about to get into a fight.) |
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Shoot one and compare to your other choices.
Obviously this is just an academic argument because you have a choice for private buy as opposed to being issued one. Many people's opinions can be skewed either way. An issue .45 is nowhere near as tight or complicated as a $3,000 custom that chokes on belly-button lint and exotic bullet shapes. If you want or prefer a 9mm that's a choice as well. I personally have never had to shoot anyone with a pistol, and know of only a few who have. Most of those did it with a .45. |
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I was always an average shot with a handgun, picked up my first ever 1911 and went shooting 45 minutes later and was surprised at how much better my results were.
I'm not a competition shooter by a long shot, but I spend a lot of time at the range for shits and giggles and training...as far as the handguns go, the 1911 is my favorite to shoot by far. It's very accurate, nice to look at ( if that's your thing), versatile, reliable. Would it be my gun to grab if I have to "go"? No way, it'd be my Glocks 19 and 35. For home defense, I'd obviously rather use the 1911. |
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The shootability of a steel framed 1911 is good.
My wife loves my Sig. at 42oz empty, the recoil is far less abrupt than my USP based guns, and the slide is far easier to rack, which is good for her hands. Its the first handgun I've caught her looking at prices on by herself. |
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I used to say it was because I shoot it the best. Though honestly, it's close enough with various other guns that it's not that big of a difference anymore. Honestly it comes down to feel, I prefer the weight, grip angle etc. It also conceals much better than my previous Glock 19 for carry. Despite being larger in just about every dimension. The flat sides simply don't print as much. I actually enjoy working on it.
I think Larry Vickers says it best on his website though when asked if the 1911 is a good choice. That is a tough question as I feel most people are best served NOT using a 1911 as a primary sidearm. Two criteria come to mind a) A passion for the 1911 platform and b) you are willing to be your own armorer and can fix relatively minor problems or fit certain parts yourself. If you are the kind of guy that doesn’t mind tinkering with your Harley Davidson motorcycle to keep it running then you are a candidate. If however you treat your pistols like we all treat our lawnmowers then don’t get a 1911 – use a Glock. |
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Quoted:
I would say FPNI in terms of appreciation towards the pistol, as that argument sold me towards the heartfelt love for the 1911; however, it begs the question is it still relevant today? Yes, and here's why: You talk about what pistol "to go to war with," and others mention "if I knew I was getting into a fight," but the simple fact is - if you're bringing a pistol to get into a gunfight, you're doing it wrong. A pistol, regardless of caliber, ammunition capacity, or whatever else is frankly not a very effective combat weapon. It's just not. You carry a pistol for two reasons: a) because you don't actually intend on getting into a gun fight - you want to be prepared if you're forced to - but you're not expecting it b) because it's small, light, and concealable, and does not get in the way of either your day to day goings ons, or the rest of your gear I need to state this again - YOU DO NOT BRING A PISTOL TO A KNOWN GUNFIGHT. So - what does this have to do then with the 1911? The above statement, of course, refers to your primary armament - you bring a rifle to a gunfight. You carry a pistol as a backup, and as a sidearm. What that means is 99% of what your pistol does and brings to the fight is to ride in your holster and make you feel better about your options should things go to shit. Seriously. Your sidearm is like your woobie, a security blanket, a rabbit's foot, even. By the time that pistol clears leather/kydex/nylon, you're already in a world of shit, and it's about 50/50 whether you're getting out at all, no matter what you do. In which case, what are the parameters under which in a combat situation (not civilian self-defense, not beat-LEO, not good-shoot scenario) you will be employing your sidearm? When your primary weapon malfunctions. Meaning, when it comes time to grab that sidearm, you're short on time, and need to transition immediately to neutralize the threat on hand until you're in a safe enough position to get your primary weapon back in to action, and to get back in to the fight. So - when you grab that sidearm - what's important about it? The size of the bullet? The capacity of the magazine? Or the ability to quickly and immediately hit whatever you need to? In that split second, you want to put your hand on the weapon that points most naturally, shoots best, and gets rounds where you want them as quickly and instinctively as possible. Now, others have said, and I, for the most part agree - the 1911 is one of the most natural feeling, most pointable, easiest to bring into action at a moments' notice. Think about what else is going on at this moment - shots are breaking from both sides, your team, and the other team, your rifle's dropping on its sling across your body, and your hands and body are working through the motions you've trained to get to your holster, and preparing yourself mentally as well as physically to transition. What's critical in this moment is what you naturally shoot best -rounds downrange doesn't matter - rounds downrange first is what matters. You can worry about reloads, stopping power, ect. later - first thing you need to do is put down lead - and given the alternatives, you want it to be as accurate as possible. Now - the easiest criticism, of course is - well, that's a training issue, you just need to train for whatever ________ better pistol for the job there is. Train to overcome. Which sounds great - until you take in to account that the transition to the pistol is the worst kind of catastrophe that can be happening to you in this situation. To be in a rifle fight with only a pistol. The point of training is to try to prevent ever getting to that point. Becoming proficient on a pistol is time and labor intensive, inordinately so compared to the other skills that you need, and that are more likely to be used - skills like your rifle technique, land navigation, night vision and thermal devices, team based tactics and coordination and communication, first aid and casualty care - all these things must necessarily take precedence over pistolcraft. Which is not to say you don't train on pistols. If your training time and budget allows, you train on even that competency, as much as possible, and as proficient as you can be without letting other more important ones slide. Being a master pistolero is great - it's worth jack shit in a fight if you can't drive a rifle worth a crap or you can't find the objective. The point is - what pistol you bring to a gunfight or to war is infinitesimally less important than the fact that you brought it at all, and that you know how to use it. Now, the above, while applying primarily to a military context, where the user inherently have no real choice in their sidearm of issue, there is still at least one well known component that very much still sees the relevance of the 1911 in the above context, as well as many other law enforcement organizations, not the least of which is FBI's HRT, the famous users of the Springfield Professional. Now, to the armed individual or beat LEO - some of the above may or may not have relevance. In general, for obvious reasons, civilian CCWers and beat-LEOs are more dependent on their pistols than military or "tactical" teams. Different criteria, different mission, possibly dictates different choice. But there is without a doubt still a real world relevance to the old work horse, and by all accounts, for those who use it, it still works, and works well, and they have little intentions of changing horses (pun intended  ) in mid-stream.
The 1911 is my favorite pistol - and if given a choice of sidearm, it's probably what I would pick, it's the most natural, most comfortable, and the quickest for me to train on and get better with. But for the reasons I've stated above, it's the M9 which I shoot the most often, and the most out of. (Also, the price of 9MM compared to .45 ACP doesn't hurt that, either!  )
~Augee |
Wow! That is a post, Augee. For me, in short, if I have to "sell" the OP on why a 1911, prolly never gonna get it....till ya get it. I saved a scraped up for my first 1911, owning many other firearms prior to getting my first 1911, but as some say here, I am a tinkerer, and these pistols fit that bill nicely. Besides all the "gunfighter" and "compared to this or that firearm" rhetoric, there is no other firearm I am more comfortable with....and daydream of, lol. Looksee here at some of mine, I'm sick for the mechanics and look/feel of em as well. Something no other firearm will be able to compare to for me, for me, for me. Like I stated earlier, no need to sell oneself as to how to achieve ultimate handgun awesomeness status than to deliver unto thee a 1911....or two, or three, or.... :)
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| Of all my carry guns, I feel the 1911 gives me the highest probability of blowing a ~half inch or larger hole through an attacker. If I was going to be doing actual combat, I probably wouldn't choose one. However, it conceals well, is very shootable, and I don't expect to need double stack capacity when I'm out and about. I also don't worry about running it for 50 million rounds before cleaning and lubing when using it as a carry. |
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Quoted:
I would say FPNI in terms of appreciation towards the pistol, as that argument sold me towards the heartfelt love for the 1911; however, it begs the question is it still relevant today? I believe it was the Marine Corps that gave Colt a contract for somewhere in the neighborhood of 7,000 railed 1911s about six months ago...so yeah I'd say it's still relevant. edit: Here's the article...4,000 guns, not 7,000 http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/20/colt-awarded-contract-from-u-s-marine-corps/ edit again to sum it all up “This is a truly gratifying contract award,” Gerry Dinkel, CEO and president of Colt Defense, told the Hartford (Conn.) Courant. “To have the 1911 selected again for U. S. Forces 101 years after its initial introduction is just an incredible testament to the timeless design and effectiveness of the Colt 1911. Colt Defense looks forward to another great partnership with the Marine Corps as we renew industry production of the military 1911.”
Read more: http://www.gunsandammo.com/2012/07/20/colt-awarded-contract-from-u-s-marine-corps/#ixzz2JKFq4F4c |
| I like the 1911 but I don't love it. Have owned four over the years, still have two. If I'm reaching for a carry gun, the 1911 is towards the bottom of the pile. The quote from Larry Vickers is spot on. A 1911 can be a beautiful thing, but it can also make baby Jesus cry. The platform requires a certain dedication, a certain amount of technical know how and ability, and a forgiving nature. It's not for everyone. Too many inexperienced shooters jump straight into a 1911 after a couple of sessions with a 22. The results are usually bad. They flinch. They limp wrist it. Or worst of all they start "improving" it. The Brownells 1911 Catalog should only be issued on a case by case basis. |
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Quoted:
Sell me on it. Why the hard on for the 1911. As a battle pistol, something you'd throw on your kit and go to war with, why go with the 1911 over something like a Glock 17, or Sig P226? My main concerns are: - Less firepower at 8 rounds, granted its .45 ACP. Glock is 17, Sig 15, of +P defensive loads. - Weight, think it's like 41-42oz with mag, not including ammo. Crazy. I could take a Glock 17 and a medium frame tactical knife for that weight. Please help indoctrinate me into the lust for the 1911. Thank you! You can select from a wide variety of 1911 based pistols. From 3"-6", steel and aluminum frames, hi-cap or single stack and quite a few calibers. I like the slimness, trigger and the ability to modify to fit. My current carry is a Colt Defender. 8 rounds of .45 ACP in a light, compact package. Works for me. |
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Quoted:
But if the SHTF, wouldn't you want more than 8+1? I understand getting rounds on target, but the firepower.... Also, floating around 42oz, that's a heavy lucky rabbits foot to have on your kit just in case the SHTF. Thoughts on the Alumi frame versions? That's what spare loaded magazines are for. 7 or 8 round capacity is no big deal for a semi-auto sidearm. |
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Along the same lines as Augee, a sidearm is a sidearm. I will carry whats issued. But when I have a choice, it will always be a 1911. I have no need to explain/nor do I try to convert people over to loving the weapon. I love it for its feel, pointability, accuracy, reliability and the way the weapon conceals. Not to mention it is one of the most proven combat pistols ever devised and looks sexier than a swedish model on a mexican nude beach Its not that its so much better than other sidearms, because that always and forever will be an endless fight that really comes down to opinion and preference. I could care less what other folks carry, as long as they feel comfortable and are competent with the weapon. Because remember its a sidearm, which I like to define as a last ditch KILLING tool in order to survive when all other options have failed. You wanna rock a glock? go for it. Sig? great choice. does it shoot reliably and you can use it? good choice too.
Not sure what I was getting at with all that   
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Well I used to run a Glock 19.
But, my hands are kind of big, and the meat of my palm gets pinched in between the frame and the magazine baseplate. Couple that with a "spirited" reload, and it ended up drawing blood a couple times. So I traded my G19 for a 1911. I like the 1911 better. It's heavier, obviously, but that helps with control. I did stress at first since I wasn't carrying 46 rounds around anymore, just 22. But, .45 ACP defense loads are pretty nice, and now I don't feel too underarmed with it. Besides, shooting the 1911 makes it easier to put those 22 rounds right where I want them to be. One day I'll have a Colt Rail Gun, maybe. But for now my little $450 Metro Arms 1911 works just fine. Need to get her some quality leather to live in though. And a refinish; shiny nickle coating isn't so hot for CCWs. |
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Quoted:
But if the SHTF, wouldn't you want more than 8+1? I understand getting rounds on target, but the firepower.... Also, floating around 42oz, that's a heavy lucky rabbits foot to have on your kit just in case the SHTF. Thoughts on the Alumi frame versions? If SHTF, I'm grabbing my AR-10 SASS and SDM 5.56, mags, ammo and getting to higher ground....with a few select 1911's....  I am a big guy and after 15 minutes of carrying my 5" 1911's IWB, I honestly can't even feel the 42+ oz's after that.
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Quoted: But if the SHTF, wouldn't you want more than 8+1? I understand getting rounds on target, but the firepower.... Also, floating around 42oz, that's a heavy lucky rabbits foot to have on your kit just in case the SHTF. Thoughts on the Alumi frame versions? I have my 1911 and a couple of 9mm. One of my 9's hardly ever gets shot, that's my G17. My XDm3.8 compact is my summer carry gun, so I get it out whenever I go to the range and put a few mags through it. I'm accurate with all my handguns, and could effectively use any normal pistol you put in my hands, but I have a high level of confidence in the 1911 and its ability to stop a threat. I don't have that many rounds through the one I own now, but it's the design of it that fits my shooting style the best but it is the one that sits beside my bed at night. That being said, I can also get to my rifle easily because I don't have kids. I need to get a couple of 10 round mags and a flashlight for my 1911, but my decision is based on stopping power and accuracy vs round count in the magazine. |
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Quoted:
But if the SHTF, wouldn't you want more than 8+1? I understand getting rounds on target, but the firepower.... Also, floating around 42oz, that's a heavy lucky rabbits foot to have on your kit just in case the SHTF. Thoughts on the Alumi frame versions? Carry extra mags and if its comes down to it you can beat the brakes off of some one with a 1911. |
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Quoted:
But if the SHTF, wouldn't you want more than 8+1? I understand getting rounds on target, but the firepower.... Also, floating around 42oz, that's a heavy lucky rabbits foot to have on your kit just in case the SHTF. Thoughts on the Alumi frame versions? If the SHTF, my primary weapon would be my rifle. The pistol is a self defense weapon and sidearm. If I had to use it in a SHTF situation, it would only be used long enough for me to get to a rifle. For normal self defense purposes, I want .45 ACP and a nice steel pipe to beat someone with if all else fails. Thus, 1911. IMHO anyway... |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
But if the SHTF, wouldn't you want more than 8+1? I understand getting rounds on target, but the firepower.... Also, floating around 42oz, that's a heavy lucky rabbits foot to have on your kit just in case the SHTF. Thoughts on the Alumi frame versions? Carry extra mags and if its comes down to it you can beat the brakes off of some one with a 1911. Yep. Kinda hard to do a bit of "buffaloing" to someone's noggin with tactical tupperware. It just doesn't have that same charm.
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