Posted: 8/25/2012 11:20:39 AM EDT
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Used military (as in actually used by the US Army/Navy/Marines) 1911 seem to be very common. At least common enough that most gun stores have at least one genuine 1911 of some flavor that was used by the military for sale.
Any idea how most of these came to be in civilian hands? Did the military do a massive sell-off of pistols to the public at some point? Were servicement allowed to keep their handguns when they left the military at some points in time? Did most of these guns simply fall off the back of a truck? |
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All 3 of the scenarios you suggest occurred.
The DCM did sell guns to the public over a long period of time. It was a long spread out operation though, not a massive sell off at a signle point in time. Retiring officers were allowed to purchase their service sidearms. Again, a long, spread out process. Servicemen were allowed to keep their handguns when they left the military, though this was a passive allowance. It was some thing that happened, rather than some thing that was expressly permitted.. Guns fell off of trucks, out of airplanes, off of ships. Pistols continued in service after the serviceman they were issued to was killed in combat. Lots of these pistols came home when their new owners did. (Possibly several hands down the line). During WWI, it was thought a good idea to issue every soldier a pistol. They didn't reach that goal, but they sure tried. The same thing occurred in WWII. |
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At least common enough that most gun stores have at least one genuine 1911 of some flavor that was used by the military for sale. Really?  Where are you? I've never seen a USGI 1911 up close.You mean that's not normal? The "sporting goods" shops usually don't, but the dedicated gunshops in my area seem to have former-USGI 1911's at least 70% of the time. |
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At least common enough that most gun stores have at least one genuine 1911 of some flavor that was used by the military for sale. Really? Where are you? I've never seen a USGI 1911 up close.You mean that's not normal? The "sporting goods" shops usually don't, but the dedicated gunshops in my area seem to have former-USGI 1911's at least 70% of the time. As far as I can remember, the only GI 1911s I've seen was the Argentine ones and still rarely. The gun shops around me mostly sell $300 Hi-Points I've been going into all the shops lately on a weekly basis, have not seen ANY GI 1911s. I think they are VERY sought after. |
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As far as your question though, since the 1911 isn't a machine gun, I think when they were replaced by the M9 they were either sold to the public, US law enforcement agancies, or sent to over seas allies (wich could be sold back to us also), so your assumption that they are all stolen is false. They are obsolete. They have been replaced in service and were gotten disposed of.
I own a US property marked S&W victory model revolver, but never lucky enough to find a GI 1911. 
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The DCM [now CMP] used to sell them for $12, you got ONE per lifetime. I have exactly one with all the paperwork and shipping box. Many were "customized into "target" pistols in the 50s, 60s and 70s and only in the 80s did most reasonably knowledgeable gun people realize they were actually worth something as a "collectable." Many thousands were hacked up before it became common knowledge that it wasn't a good thing to do. [and it still happens to this day]
I'd bet that the majority of them came home with the soldiers that carried them and the longer they stayed in service, the more they were mismatched. Most original condition ones likely came home with the person they were initially issued to or the person that ended up with it after the person it was originally issued to was either wounded or killed or "lost" it in battle. Officer were allowed to purchase them, General Officers tended to get one if they wanted one. I'm sure some high ranking Non Comm's were allowed to buy one also. Finding them is hit and miss, I've had time periods where I've found nothing or what I did find were totally boogered up or refinished and polished out making them basic shooters. Other times, I've ran across them at shows, from individuals, Grandkids that didn't care about "Gramps old pistol," and small out of the way gunshops. As long as the price was good, I'd buy them and I walked away from more then a few due to differences in what I was willing to pay and they thought it was worth. I seriously doubt, after 50-100 years, the Mil could ever prove what went out the door legally, and what came home with guys that spent the past couple year fighting Japanese, Germans, and N Koreans and Chinese. [Everyone forgets the Korean War] By Vietnam, it became far harder to not turn in weapons and come home with them. Some did but I'd bet it was nowhere the numbers in WW1 and II. I doubt anyone has a clue just exactly how many are out there but there are far more people wanting one then exists in civilian hands and the price increases prove that year after year. The 1968 Gun Control act basically killed the Mil to Civ sale. Except for 30 caliber rifles and .22 rifles, pretty much everything else to include ALL pistols, was banned for sale. When the 1911/A1 was replaced, "Captain Crunch" destroyed tens of thousands of remaining pistols, others were kept by the Mil and some were handed out to "friendly" Countries. By that time, many of the remaining one's in service were in pretty poor shape if they were actually used as the last production [save for very limited numbers for "special use"] was in 1945. |
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aasg you are incorrect. after gca 68 the gov was no longer authorized to sell surplus 1911's to civilians. Once the m9 was adopted any remaining servicable 1911's (not as many as you might think) were put into storage. The other scenarios mentioned did occur.
Also even though regulations stated they needed to retain them and send them back to the gov when done with them,many police agencies got surplus 1911's for free through gov aid programs to le in this country. It seems some of those must have leaked onto the civ market as well, as you sometimes come across USGI 1911's with rebuild marks indicating they were rebuilt in the 80's |
| secondly while far from rare USGI guns that have not been butchered (refinished/ aftermarket sights/parts) are getting harder and harder to find. I settled recently for a reparked 1911 off gunbroker to satisfy my desire for a USGI 1911. It cost me near 900 bucks, and I still feel I got a fair deal. Also keep in mind that years ago many companies made 1911 frames (essex is a prime example) that were fitted up with surplus gi parts so until you inspect it closely and see the frame indeed says united states property on it,from a casual glance it may look like a usgi 1911 even though it is not. |
| There are plenty of these guns still out there, the issue is price. Unless you luck into one at a garage/estate sale, the days of cheap GI .45's are long gone. I was at a Dallas gun show recently, and a guy had a table of in the box originals that were amazing. Navy's, Army's, you name it and he had it. Nothing under 2K, and some over 7K. The GI .45 game has become like the MG game at a slightly lower level. |
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There are plenty of these guns still out there, the issue is price. Unless you luck into one at a garage/estate sale, the days of cheap GI .45's are long gone. I was at a Dallas gun show recently, and a guy had a table of in the box originals that were amazing. Navy's, Army's, you name it and he had it. Nothing under 2K, and some over 7K. The GI .45 game has become like the MG game at a slightly lower level. I would be VERY suspect of anybody with a table of "original" in the box new USGI pistols. For every one that turns out to be true, there are 100 that are bogus due to their rarity. "Correct" Boxes can be bought as easy as surfing and clicking and handing over some money. There were just a bit over 2.4 million manufactured, out of those, how many do you think ended up in civilian hands? 10%? 20%? 30%? |
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There are plenty of these guns still out there, the issue is price. Unless you luck into one at a garage/estate sale, the days of cheap GI .45's are long gone. I was at a Dallas gun show recently, and a guy had a table of in the box originals that were amazing. Navy's, Army's, you name it and he had it. Nothing under 2K, and some over 7K. The GI .45 game has become like the MG game at a slightly lower level. I would be VERY suspect of anybody with a table of "original" in the box new USGI pistols. For every one that turns out to be true, there are 100 that are bogus due to their rarity. "Correct" Boxes can be bought as easy as surfing and clicking and handing over some money. There were just a bit over 2.4 million manufactured, out of those, how many do you think ended up in civilian hands? 10%? 20%? 30%? You're free to be "suspect" all you want, but there are a lot of legitimate dealers who've been collecting these things over the course of a lifetime. These were all papered, and the dealer has a good reputation. By "table full" I meant 7 or 8 in the box (not necesarily NIB, just original), which was a lot for me at one time. He had about 8 or 9 others that were very nice, but obviously not unused. I do agree that if you intend to spend that much money, you would be well-advised to do your homework. My point to the OP was that there may be more of these guns that he thought. |
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There are plenty of these guns still out there, the issue is price. Unless you luck into one at a garage/estate sale, the days of cheap GI .45's are long gone. I was at a Dallas gun show recently, and a guy had a table of in the box originals that were amazing. Navy's, Army's, you name it and he had it. Nothing under 2K, and some over 7K. The GI .45 game has become like the MG game at a slightly lower level. I would be VERY suspect of anybody with a table of "original" in the box new USGI pistols. For every one that turns out to be true, there are 100 that are bogus due to their rarity. "Correct" Boxes can be bought as easy as surfing and clicking and handing over some money. There were just a bit over 2.4 million manufactured, out of those, how many do you think ended up in civilian hands? 10%? 20%? 30%? You're free to be "suspect" all you want, but there are a lot of legitimate dealers who've been collecting these things over the course of a lifetime. These were all papered, and the dealer has a good reputation. By "table full" I meant 7 or 8 in the box (not necesarily NIB, just original), which was a lot for me at one time. He had about 8 or 9 others that were very nice, but obviously not unused. I do agree that if you intend to spend that much money, you would be well-advised to do your homework. My point to the OP was that there may be more of these guns that he thought. I believe this particular vendor was mentioned on another site and that he had a "history" with "in the box originals" and that history wasn't exactly good. I believe "surfer dude" was what he once was nicknamed. |
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There are plenty of these guns still out there, the issue is price. Unless you luck into one at a garage/estate sale, the days of cheap GI .45's are long gone. I was at a Dallas gun show recently, and a guy had a table of in the box originals that were amazing. Navy's, Army's, you name it and he had it. Nothing under 2K, and some over 7K. The GI .45 game has become like the MG game at a slightly lower level. I would be VERY suspect of anybody with a table of "original" in the box new USGI pistols. For every one that turns out to be true, there are 100 that are bogus due to their rarity. "Correct" Boxes can be bought as easy as surfing and clicking and handing over some money. There were just a bit over 2.4 million manufactured, out of those, how many do you think ended up in civilian hands? 10%? 20%? 30%? You're free to be "suspect" all you want, but there are a lot of legitimate dealers who've been collecting these things over the course of a lifetime. These were all papered, and the dealer has a good reputation. By "table full" I meant 7 or 8 in the box (not necesarily NIB, just original), which was a lot for me at one time. He had about 8 or 9 others that were very nice, but obviously not unused. I do agree that if you intend to spend that much money, you would be well-advised to do your homework. My point to the OP was that there may be more of these guns that he thought. I believe this particular vendor was mentioned on another site and that he had a "history" with "in the box originals" and that history wasn't exactly good. I believe "surfer dude" was what he once was nicknamed. I don't know how you would know this particular vendor was "surfer dude", unless you were there. There were at least 3 or 4 dealers with boxed GI and other collectible .45's at the big Dallas show. This particular guy was in his 70's, so he'd be a pretty old surfer. As I said earlier, documenting a purchase like this is a necessity. Arguing whether this individual was or was not a scamster doesn't help the OP, so I'm out. |
| So Im not trying to start any argument at all. But you do realize that if 2.4 million were made and 10-30% were released which is a questionable number because no one knows for sure, that would but around 200,000 to a half million guns were released. That's a lot of 1911's |
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At least common enough that most gun stores have at least one genuine 1911 of some flavor that was used by the military for sale. Really? Where are you? I've never seen a USGI 1911 up close.You mean that's not normal? The "sporting goods" shops usually don't, but the dedicated gunshops in my area seem to have former-USGI 1911's at least 70% of the time. I pay particular attention to 1911s, clones, and variants when I go into gun shops all over Georgia. In all these years, I have seen ONE USGI M1911 in a shop. |
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So Im not trying to start any argument at all. But you do realize that if 2.4 million were made and 10-30% were released which is a questionable number because no one knows for sure, that would but around 200,000 to a half million guns were released. That's a lot of 1911's Now cut that number by 25-35% easily due to refinishes like chroming, modifying them, breaking them down for parts, stolen and never recovered or destroyed, major breakage and scrapping out of them, botched "gunsmith" hacks, and one's toasted by nothing more then neglect. Right now I have 9 of them dating from 1916 to 1945. I've sold 3 or 4 [[stupid, stupid, stupid!] years ago and while I know where there are more, the prices are such that they will likely NEVER sell because the owners really don't to sell them and many of them have some serious issues like serial number ranges don't match the slide manufacturers and many are horribly over refinished, something the govt didn't bother to do when they did it. I felt I was pretty fortunate to find a 100% original 1916 1911 this year that had never been refinished or a part replaced. I look all the time and I run across one's like that once every decade in my area. |
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Back in '94 a friend of mine had an FFL (when they were easy to get, almost like a C&R) and he was going to get me a used military 1911A1 but then after checking, told me they were hard to come by since Clinton ordered stockpiled ones to be destroyed. ' He did, "Captain Crunch" ate a whole lot of 1911s under ol' penis nose's orders. |
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At least common enough that most gun stores have at least one genuine 1911 of some flavor that was used by the military for sale. Really? Where are you? I've never seen a USGI 1911 up close.You mean that's not normal? The "sporting goods" shops usually don't, but the dedicated gunshops in my area seem to have former-USGI 1911's at least 70% of the time. ...are you sure you're not confusing Springfield USGI model guns, for actual issued M1911 or M1911A1s? They bear a passing resemblance but nothing more. |
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At least common enough that most gun stores have at least one genuine 1911 of some flavor that was used by the military for sale. Really? Where are you? I've never seen a USGI 1911 up close.You mean that's not normal? The "sporting goods" shops usually don't, but the dedicated gunshops in my area seem to have former-USGI 1911's at least 70% of the time. ...are you sure you're not confusing Springfield USGI model guns, for actual issued M1911 or M1911A1s? They bear a passing resemblance but nothing more. Absolutely sure. It's not legal for dealers to sell Springfield guns in MA. |
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Absolutely sure. It's not legal for dealers to sell Springfield guns in MA. What makes did you see then? Because in 12 years I can count the number of actual USGI M1911s and M1911A1s I've seen at a gun store on one hand, and that's between NY, NJ and MN... How are you determining they're actual USGI and not simply something that looks like a GI gun? Edited to clarify - it's just that a lot of people see any old 1911 or 1911-style gun and think they're real USGI when they're not. I've seen a lot of mislabeled guns on store shelves as well. I've seen USGI slides on Essex (non-USGI) frames, USGI frames with post-war Colt commercial slides on them, so on so forth. If it's a USGI gun the serial number and other markings will be very specific, and it'll be from one of a handful of manufacturers. |
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Would any Remington, singer, or USS&S be usgi? They didn't do any civi guns
Right? A few shops around here usually have between 1-3 USGI guns, then a fre old commercial guns, mixed USGI slides on Essex frames, And a victory model revolver or two. But those shops are into that sort of thing. It has gotten to the point that if you don't know what you have, you can get burned, so shops either specialize or stay away from these guns. The other factor to consider is age. Most WW2 vets are sadly gone. Their peak years of dying off was 1995-2005, so that is also when a lot of the guns came crawling out from the sock drawer for the first time in 60 years. I think something similar will occur as our Vietnam vets approach their final years in another decade or two. As far as NIB models? Yeah they happen too. CT state guard unit (state militia not NG) sold about 400 brand new colts from either 1947 or 1950 a few years back. They went relatively cheap IIRC. NYS did something similar too. |
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Would any Remington, singer, or USS&S be usgi? They didn't do any civi guns Right? A few shops around here usually have between 1-3 USGI guns, then a fre old commercial guns, mixed USGI slides on Essex frames, And a victory model revolver or two. But those shops are into that sort of thing. It has gotten to the point that if you don't know what you have, you can get burned, so shops either specialize or stay away from these guns. The other factor to consider is age. Most WW2 vets are sadly gone. Their peak years of dying off was 1995-2005, so that is also when a lot of the guns came crawling out from the sock drawer for the first time in 60 years. I think something similar will occur as our Vietnam vets approach their final years in another decade or two. As far as NIB models? Yeah they happen too. CT state guard unit (state militia not NG) sold about 400 brand new colts from either 1947 or 1950 a few years back. They went relatively cheap IIRC. NYS did something similar too. You now have Remington making 1911 pistols but Remington Rand was another company entirely with zero affiliation with Remington Arms. One also must forget that Colt produced a 1911A1 reissue and 2 different 1911 reissues, each with a different finish. To someone with no knowledge of GI 1911s, a used one might be mistaken as a true GI issue. |
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Would any Remington, singer, or USS&S be usgi? They didn't do any civi guns Right? A few shops around here usually have between 1-3 USGI guns, then a fre old commercial guns, mixed USGI slides on Essex frames, And a victory model revolver or two. But those shops are into that sort of thing. It has gotten to the point that if you don't know what you have, you can get burned, so shops either specialize or stay away from these guns. The other factor to consider is age. Most WW2 vets are sadly gone. Their peak years of dying off was 1995-2005, so that is also when a lot of the guns came crawling out from the sock drawer for the first time in 60 years. I think something similar will occur as our Vietnam vets approach their final years in another decade or two. As far as NIB models? Yeah they happen too. CT state guard unit (state militia not NG) sold about 400 brand new colts from either 1947 or 1950 a few years back. They went relatively cheap IIRC. NYS did something similar too. You now have Remington making 1911 pistols but Remington Rand was another company entirely with zero affiliation with Remington Arms. One also must forget that Colt produced a 1911A1 reissue and 2 different 1911 reissues, each with a different finish. To someone with no knowledge of GI 1911s, a used one might be mistaken as a true GI issue. The dealer that I am thinking of actually is the FFL that Colt uses for transfers that are employee purchases. They, and I are familiar with the repros and the new Remington branded guns. |
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I have 1 1911A1 and 1 1911. The A1 has no finish left on it but I love just the same. My 1911 is in great shape for a made on date in 1914. The USGI pistols are still out there but the price for beat ones I have seen in my area is in the $600 to $800 range.
RLTW Remington Rand 1911A1 no finish left 
Colt 1911 
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Would any Remington, singer, or USS&S be usgi? They didn't do any civi guns Right? A few shops around here usually have between 1-3 USGI guns, then a fre old commercial guns, mixed USGI slides on Essex frames, And a victory model revolver or two. But those shops are into that sort of thing. It has gotten to the point that if you don't know what you have, you can get burned, so shops either specialize or stay away from these guns. The other factor to consider is age. Most WW2 vets are sadly gone. Their peak years of dying off was 1995-2005, so that is also when a lot of the guns came crawling out from the sock drawer for the first time in 60 years. I think something similar will occur as our Vietnam vets approach their final years in another decade or two. As far as NIB models? Yeah they happen too. CT state guard unit (state militia not NG) sold about 400 brand new colts from either 1947 or 1950 a few years back. They went relatively cheap IIRC. NYS did something similar too. You now have Remington making 1911 pistols but Remington Rand was another company entirely with zero affiliation with Remington Arms. One also must forget that Colt produced a 1911A1 reissue and 2 different 1911 reissues, each with a different finish. To someone with no knowledge of GI 1911s, a used one might be mistaken as a true GI issue. Didn't Remington, not Rand, make 1911s during WWI? |
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Would any Remington, singer, or USS&S be usgi? They didn't do any civi guns Right? A few shops around here usually have between 1-3 USGI guns, then a fre old commercial guns, mixed USGI slides on Essex frames, And a victory model revolver or two. But those shops are into that sort of thing. It has gotten to the point that if you don't know what you have, you can get burned, so shops either specialize or stay away from these guns. The other factor to consider is age. Most WW2 vets are sadly gone. Their peak years of dying off was 1995-2005, so that is also when a lot of the guns came crawling out from the sock drawer for the first time in 60 years. I think something similar will occur as our Vietnam vets approach their final years in another decade or two. As far as NIB models? Yeah they happen too. CT state guard unit (state militia not NG) sold about 400 brand new colts from either 1947 or 1950 a few years back. They went relatively cheap IIRC. NYS did something similar too. You now have Remington making 1911 pistols but Remington Rand was another company entirely with zero affiliation with Remington Arms. One also must forget that Colt produced a 1911A1 reissue and 2 different 1911 reissues, each with a different finish. To someone with no knowledge of GI 1911s, a used one might be mistaken as a true GI issue. Didn't Remington, not Rand, make 1911s during WWI? Remington Rand was a totally separate company from Remington and made 1911A1s only in WW2, Remington UMC made some WW1 1911s so you are correct. |
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Any of you guys who have never seen one, either don't get out much or are looking in the wrong places. I have seen as many as 12 at a time: Ithaca, Remington Rand, Colt, etc in a Cabela's!
I currently own 2 GI guns, but have owned 3 others in the past. Both mine were made in 1918, one is still in M1911 configuration with no finish, the other was an arsenal rework. It is an M1911 frame that was converted to an A1 by an armory at some point. Hammer, trigger, MSH were changed and the finger grooves were milled in (and through athe port side inspectors mark). I saw a nice one made in 1941 in a LGS. Colt, all inspector marks present and all parts look correct. It did not go home with me because someone reblued it and in the polishing it lost the Property mark. |
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Any of you guys who have never seen one, either don't get out much or are looking in the wrong places. I have seen as many as 12 at a time: Ithaca, Remington Rand, Colt, etc in a Cabela's! I currently own 2 GI guns, but have owned 3 others in the past. Both mine were made in 1918, one is still in M1911 configuration with no finish, the other was an arsenal rework. It is an M1911 frame that was converted to an A1 by an armory at some point. Hammer, trigger, MSH were changed and the finger grooves were milled in (and through athe port side inspectors mark). I saw a nice one made in 1941 in a LGS. Colt, all inspector marks present and all parts look correct. It did not go home with me because someone reblued it and in the polishing it lost the Property mark. I don't want to be the bearer of bad tidings but the govt didn't mill in "finger grooves" when they rebuilt 1911s. |
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Quoted: Quoted: At least common enough that most gun stores have at least one genuine 1911 of some flavor that was used by the military for sale. Really? Where are you? I've never seen a USGI 1911 up close.Really? Both of these came home with me, from the same gun shop (and no. That is not a euphemism for the unit armory that I had to inventory monthly):  |
I have bought and sold two of them in the last five years. So yes, they are out there. Just a matter of luck, timing, searching, being at the right place/right time.
This one I sold on the EE just about a year ago. I was sad to see it go, but it went to a Remington Rand collector who will take care of it. I like to shoot my guns and this one was just sitting around looking classy through the years, increasing in value. 
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freshly re-parked to boot
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the guns the mercenary refer to are given as aid to local le agencise and remain property of the feds and must be returned to the feds (in original condition) if ever requested. Any surplus GI 1911's out there now were released prior to 1968. whatever is in the market place now (barring small amounts re-imported to the US from foreign sources) is all there will ever be, unless a dramatic shift occurs in the political world as we know it. The sad truth is sooner or later any remaining 1911's in federal inventroy will get scrapped.
They do show up from time to time- I can usually find a few in my local shops. In other places they may be more prevalent.(in my home state you need a permit to even possess a handgun, so there are fewer attic or basement storage locker finds than in other areas of the country) sad truth with many WW2 Korea and now even vietnam era vets dying off at high rates, those liberated somehow from gov stock by these old heroes back in the day will "come out" more and more for a while. |
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Any of you guys who have never seen one, either don't get out much or are looking in the wrong places. I have seen as many as 12 at a time: Ithaca, Remington Rand, Colt, etc in a Cabela's! I currently own 2 GI guns, but have owned 3 others in the past. Both mine were made in 1918, one is still in M1911 configuration with no finish, the other was an arsenal rework. It is an M1911 frame that was converted to an A1 by an armory at some point. Hammer, trigger, MSH were changed and the finger grooves were milled in (and through athe port side inspectors mark). I saw a nice one made in 1941 in a LGS. Colt, all inspector marks present and all parts look correct. It did not go home with me because someone reblued it and in the polishing it lost the Property mark. I don't want to be the bearer of bad tidings but the govt didn't mill in "finger grooves" when they rebuilt 1911s. Apparently some did, I knew a Korean War Vet who had a "seabag bringback" done the same exact way 
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When I retired I was suppose to get a Remington Rand 1911A1 in great condition that was donated to the department. An idiot traded it in when we went to the Glock 21SF. I ended up taking my duty Glock 21SF when I retired. I would rather have the Remington Rand 1911A1. |