Posted: 10/24/2010 9:12:20 AM EDT
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I'm trying to help my buddy find his first handgun and carry gun. I'm not a 1911 guy at all so I know very little about them. Ive shot a Kimber and Springfield years ago. I shoot XDs & M&Ps but he likes the looks and thin grip profile of a 1911. Obviously I'm not going to have him buy a gun strictly based on looks but once I can narrow it down to a few we can go to some local gun shops and gun shows to try to check them.
I'm looking for: 1911 in 9mm (for higher capacity and cheaper ammo) 9+1 capacity or better Preferably aluminum or lightweight alloy frame 4" barrel (3" subcompact barrels are too small for him to practice with comfortably) Under $800 (yes, I know it's tough) I've read some good and bad about both Para & Kimber but what about the Para PCX99R or Kimber Pro Carry II? Why should he not get either of these? Edited reflecting some of what I said below. |
The Spec Ops looks excellent... until you check the price I know Wilson Combat, Nighthawk Customs and the likes make some sweet 1911s but I also know that he cannot afford one.
Is there anything similar at or under the $800 mark? If I can't find him a 1911, the alternative is a 92FS/M9 unless I can talk him into an XD. |
| I "pulled the trigger" (pun intended) on a Spec Ops 9. I was in the same boat as your friend ––- looking for a good 9mm 1911, but not for CCW, more for range and competition. For me it was between the Wilson and the more traditional S&W 9mm Pro Series 1911. I opted for the Wilson. Should be here by the end of the year I think. |
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For risk of getting banned from the 1911 forum, that price range let him look outside the 1911 platform. Haha, this is what I'm slightly leaning toward currently but he is the one who wants a 1911 since he likes the thin grip profile. He just doesn't have the coin for one and being new to owning(but not shooting) guns he had no clue how pricey they can be. I said something not like the Colt New Agent because after shooting a few different guns at the range recently he realized he doesn't like short barrels (like my 3.25" M&P9c) so this knocks out the EMP, which would've been a relatively easy choice. The Colt Defender is basically a New Agent with sights. I'd really like to hear what you guys think of the Para and Kimber, that I mentioned in my OP. Why should he not get either of these? |
| If that is his price range and he is against 3" 1911s, his best bet is to look at another platform. 9mm can sometimes be finicky in the 1911 platform and one needs to do research and be willing to spend the $ to get a fine handgun, not just one to shoot in 9mm. I own a DW Guardian but that will set you back almost double his price range. Baer makes them, as well as NH, and WC. Springfield has the loaded in that price range but they seem to be hit or miss. I know STI has the Spartan in 9mm but it doesnt have a ramped barrel. I prefer my 1911 9mm to have a ramped barrel due to the design of the cartridge. |
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Of the 2 you listed I would get the Kimber over the para anything. Of the 2, yes... but a 9mm 1911 isn't a platform that's synonymous with economy. Still, you can often find older Colt 9mm Commanders around that price range, and they generally run pretty well. I carried one for several years. |
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If your friend is looking for a carry piece, there's a couple things he might not have considered that may push him into a cheaper firearm.
First is wear. Some people care about the finish on their pistols, some don't. As a carry piece, he will get holster wear and the possibility of some rust from sweat. Second is getting it back in operable condition if (Heaven forbid) he ever actually uses it. I've heard horror stories about the condition people have gotten their favorite firearm back in. Gunked up by the molding material, even missing parts. So if he's going to be carrying, and is dedicated to carrying (a whole different discussion), he needs to consider whether he'll carry his favorite/best firearm, or some ultra-reliable plastic "throw-away." The 1911 does have a great reputation for carry due to safeties, easy point-shooting and is slender, but also has grown quite costly. Finally, if he's carrying he has to consider whether he feels a 9mm is what he wants. Not trying to start a never ending debate here; some feel comfortable with a .380 auto, some feel anything less than .45 is not worth carrying. For what it's worth, it seems most Europeans think 9mm is fine. |
| What about a Hi-Power? It seems to fit all his wants and is very similar to a 1911. The pistol is still very thin despite its double stack mag. I saw a few weeks ago on JG Sales they were selling surpluss FMs for $300. They even have the 1911 profile slide that he will probably like. |
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If your friend is looking for a carry piece, there's a couple things he might not have considered that may push him into a cheaper firearm. First is wear. Some people care about the finish on their pistols, some don't. As a carry piece, he will get holster wear and the possibility of some rust from sweat. Second is getting it back in operable condition if (Heaven forbid) he ever actually uses it. I've heard horror stories about the condition people have gotten their favorite firearm back in. Gunked up by the molding material, even missing parts. So if he's going to be carrying, and is dedicated to carrying (a whole different discussion), he needs to consider whether he'll carry his favorite/best firearm, or some ultra-reliable plastic "throw-away." The 1911 does have a great reputation for carry due to safeties, easy point-shooting and is slender, but also has grown quite costly. Finally, if he's carrying he has to consider whether he feels a 9mm is what he wants. Not trying to start a never ending debate here; some feel comfortable with a .380 auto, some feel anything less than .45 is not worth carrying. For what it's worth, it seems most Europeans think 9mm is fine. You make some good points. Since this is a new idea for him, he hasn't considered a whole lot aside from the process of getting his CHP, his budget, and learning the legalities surrounding ccw. I'm the "gun nut" out of our friends but I am really just an AR guy and only learn everything I can about the pistols that I buy, metal framed guns and those not 9mm are not included in my interests. I chose 9mm because it's cheap enough to practice with a lot and has quality defensive ammunition available for it (Win Ranger, Speer GDHP, etc) that performs very well in most credible tests. I believe he will carry regularly. The idea of buying a 1911 for other uses and buying a less expensive "plastic" carry gun is what I'm trying to ever so gently push him towards and he finally mentioned last night. Reading that 1911's chambered in 9mm aren't the most reliable is a bit of a concern to me. He would be fine buying a .45 but I know for a fact that he won't shoot it enough, due to ammo cost, which is why I'm limiting his choices to 9mm. kKlroy: I forgot about the Hi-power  That one just went on the definite list to check out when we visit the gun shop/shows.
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Yea, my local shop has one, but I do not believe they make a 4" 9mm 1911 - just a govt sized one (or at least, that's all I've ever seen) Quoted: Armscor/Rock Island Armory alsol makes a 1911 in 9mm. I don't know anything about them, but they certainly fit into his price range. check out www.galleryofguns.com and search item #51615 |
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I'm trying to help my buddy find his first handgun and carry gun. I'm not a 1911 guy at all so I know very little about them. Ive shot a Kimber and Springfield years ago. I shoot XDs & M&Ps but he likes the looks and thin grip profile of a 1911. Obviously I'm not going to have him buy a gun strictly based on looks but once I can narrow it down to a few we can go to some local gun shops and gun shows to try to check them. I'm looking for: 1911 in 9mm (for higher capacity and cheaper ammo) 9+1 capacity or better Preferably aluminum or lightweight alloy frame 4" barrel (3" subcompact barrels are too small for him to practice with comfortably) Under $800 (yes, I know it's tough) I've read some good and bad about both Para & Kimber but what about the Para PCX99R or Kimber Pro Carry II? Why should he not get either of these? emp 
Edited reflecting some of what I said below. |
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I'm trying to help my buddy find his first handgun and carry gun. I'm not a 1911 guy at all so I know very little about them. Ive shot a Kimber and Springfield years ago. I shoot XDs & M&Ps but he likes the looks and thin grip profile of a 1911. Obviously I'm not going to have him buy a gun strictly based on looks but once I can narrow it down to a few we can go to some local gun shops and gun shows to try to check them. I'm looking for: 1911 in 9mm (for higher capacity and cheaper ammo) 9+1 capacity or better Preferably aluminum or lightweight alloy frame 4" barrel (3" subcompact barrels are too small for him to practice with comfortably) Under $800 (yes, I know it's tough) I've read some good and bad about both Para & Kimber but what about the Para PCX99R or Kimber Pro Carry II? Why should he not get either of these? Edited reflecting some of what I said below. emp
See above in green. Quoted:
Why 9mm? He can ge a great used 1911 in a common 45 chambering for less than $600. I had an sti 9mm escort- truly wonderful gun. But if you are only gonna have one 1911 make it a 45. Maybe he needs a kahr p9? See above in blue and my previous post. |
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I'm trying to help my buddy find his first handgun and carry gun. I'm not a 1911 guy at all so I know very little about them. Ive shot a Kimber and Springfield years ago. I shoot XDs & M&Ps but he likes the looks and thin grip profile of a 1911. Obviously I'm not going to have him buy a gun strictly based on looks but once I can narrow it down to a few we can go to some local gun shops and gun shows to try to check them. I'm looking for: 1911 in 9mm (for higher capacity and cheaper ammo) 9+1 capacity or better Preferably aluminum or lightweight alloy frame 4" barrel (3" subcompact barrels are too small for him to practice with comfortably) Under $800 (yes, I know it's tough) I've read some good and bad about both Para & Kimber but what about the Para PCX99R or Kimber Pro Carry II? Why should he not get either of these? Edited reflecting some of what I said below. emp
See above in green. Quoted:
Why 9mm? He can ge a great used 1911 in a common 45 chambering for less than $600. I had an sti 9mm escort- truly wonderful gun. But if you are only gonna have one 1911 make it a 45. Maybe he needs a kahr p9? See above in blue and my previous post. Ehhh.... My 3" Kimber Ultra Carry shoots like a little squirt gun. Low recoil, and a surprising lack of muzzle flip. Granted, I've only run 300 rounds through it so far but it's been surprisingly comfortable to shoot. |
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shit. I was looking at 9mm 1911s also for carry (commander or full size) due to ammo... cant afford to practice enough with .45 at this point in my life(college). I was looking at either the spartan or the sa loaded models... I would be shooting at least 1k rounds through it before i carried it to ensure it was reliable, but after reading this im leaning back towards a cz p01/75 compact(your buddy should check these out, very good pistols - i love the feel of the 1911, and the cz points very nice for me). Should I skip the 1911 or if i run 1k through it and its reliable would you still have hesitations trusting your life to one? Or am i reading the internet too much? Also, if there was a problem, could i trust sti or SA to fix it hastle free? Thanx guys.
OP, not meaning to hijack your thread, Was gonna start a new one but we had very similar questions(if you want me to, ill delete this and start my own) |
| I don't understand the 3" barrel is too small argument against the EMP. I have both an EMP and a full sized 45 loaded and the grip is just about the same with both. As a matter of fact, with the extension on the EMP mag, there is more room for your hand with the EMP. |
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I'm trying to help my buddy find his first handgun and carry gun. I'm not a 1911 guy at all so I know very little about them. Ive shot a Kimber and Springfield years ago. I shoot XDs & M&Ps but he likes the looks and thin grip profile of a 1911. Obviously I'm not going to have him buy a gun strictly based on looks but once I can narrow it down to a few we can go to some local gun shops and gun shows to try to check them. I'm looking for: 1911 in 9mm (for higher capacity and cheaper ammo) 9+1 capacity or better Preferably aluminum or lightweight alloy frame 4" barrel (3" subcompact barrels are too small for him to practice with comfortably) Under $800 (yes, I know it's tough) I've read some good and bad about both Para & Kimber but what about the Para PCX99R or Kimber Pro Carry II? Why should he not get either of these? Edited reflecting some of what I said below. If he is sold on 9mm take a look at the STI Spartan. I don't own and haven't shot one in 9mm but STI builds a lot of race guns so I would think that it would run and it is in his price range. A full sized gun is not any harder to conceal than a 4" model because the frame is the same size. Get a good IWB holster (MTAC or Supertuck) and he would be good to go. |
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I don't understand the 3" barrel is too small argument against the EMP. I have both an EMP and a full sized 45 loaded and the grip is just about the same with both. As a matter of fact, with the extension on the EMP mag, there is more room for your hand with the EMP.  I never said anything about the grip of the EMP, I specifically mentioned the barrel length. I think you're confusing yourself pal. He doesn't like 3" barrels because of the added flip, shorter sight radius, and they are overall a little tougher to shoot making them not so friendly for a primary range gun. If this was not going to be his only gun for a while it'd be a different story.
As I said in my previous post, though, I got all of the info I needed from this thread: a 9mm 1911 is neither inexpensive nor the best CCW choice and I need to get him looking at alternative 9mm pistols. Thanks guys 
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Wife and I both have both.
(we took the arfcom adage to heart!) The Colt Commander 9mm are wonderful guns. The last one I bought for $450 (which is pretty low). I bought each of the M&P 9c used for about $500. My wife has medium size hands and mine are larger but not huge. The 1911s fit our hands perfectly. The 9mm 1911s are a lot of fun and economical to shoot. We carry them occasionally. However, You just can't beat the modern polymers for the modern safety features, capacity, weight, reliability, and high capacity. 
The 1911 is slim, but longer and taller. The weight is actually.. about the same weight with 12 rounds in the 9c mag. For carrying frequently and/or for long periods of time and/or in any situation that you really want to have protection? - modern, polymer, hi-cap, reliable. For going to the grocery store and back? - 1911 -9mm. ETA: you can get a spacer and use full size 17RD M&P Mags in the 9c. Mmmmm.... capacity! JMHO, -3D |