Posted: 9/5/2010 2:10:35 PM EDT
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I'm becoming more and more interested in the gun, and I think its almost time to get my first.
The purpose of the gun would be range time and CCW. So here's what I think I'm looking for: High capacity, Full-size. I'm not really concerned with the finish, and I don't want to spend much more than $800. I'd like to find a good 1911 that has the typical desired features, but I'm not really interested at this time to buy something that I need to take to a smith the adjust this, tweak that. I'd really like something GTG, out of the box. I'm a little familiar with Para-Ordnance, and their Big Hawg looks promising. I've also seen STI seeming to be favored by a good number. Any good words on the Para Big Hawg? Or should I be looking elsewhere? I've fired and cleaned my dad's older P-14 a good number of times, but that's the extent of my experience with the 1911. Any advice is much appreciated! 
MF |
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I can't help you with the Big Hawg, but I've been in the 1911 ether now for about a year.
The results? 1977 Combat Commander in 9mm IDPA local match and range gun: 
A 1978 Gold Cup which I will not compete with but for reasons unknown just had to have. 
Just go ahead and get you one and start down that 1911 road! |
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1977 Combat Commander in 9mm IDPA local match and range gun: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v334/doc540/Guns/Colt%20Combat%20Commander%20II/DSCN2587-2-1.jpg First off...where did you get that knife...that is awesome. To the OP..I looked at the Para for my first 1911 but I couldn't find anyone who owned one that had a lot of good to say about it. It seems like a lot of them have extraction problems which = bench time with a smith. Between the two you will likely get a better out of the box gun with an STI. However, you said high capacity and $800. To me high capacity = double stack and you will be lucky to find a STI double stack at double your budget. The Spartan is a solid gun in your price range but you will be limited to 10 rounds in a single stack magazine. If you want to carry it you will likely be limited to 8+1. |
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Friends don't let friends buy Para.
I agree with kchustle, high-capacity to me means double-stacked, and there are not any double-stack 1911's I'd recommend in the $800 range. Besides, there aren't many situations were you will really need more than 8 rounds of .45 ACP. For a good 1911 in the $800 range I'd recommend: A Colt STI Spartan Springfield Armory Loaded Kimber Custom II |
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I would go with the Springer GI or MilSpec. You can always uprgrade it as you go and they have great CS. It will let you get used to the 1911 as well as give you a great baseline gun that if anything happens to SA will stand by it.
ETA: Stay away from Hicap unless you get an STI. And for $800 you could get a loaded or a used Kimber. And let this be a warning you will never be satisfied with the 1911 you get. You will always want one thats better or a full custom. 
ETA: Mil Spec |
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I would go with the Springer GI. You can always uprgrade it as you go and they have great CS. It will let you get used to the 1911 as well as give you a great baseline gun that if anything happens to SA will stand by it. Also no front serrations that tear up holsters. But I would suggest spending a little more coin and get the Mil-Spec it is worth the extra for the options on it. Polished feed ramp, better sights no staked front sight. |
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Go with a Springfield or a STI. I have both but in different configurations. The Sprindfield is the TRP SS flavor and the thing rocks!.....Wait all my 1911s rock even the Kimbers. Anywho, The TRP is just fabulous but out of your price point. I'd go with a springfield Champion model or Loaded. This can be found on the EE here or Gunbroker used or new (if lucky) within your budget. I cannot say enough about STI's customer service. They are great people who answer phone calls and flat out deliver. My used STI Duty One was shooting 1.5 inches low at 10 yards and 3.5" low at 50' feet. The groups where nice but the POI was way too low! All I did was give STI a call and they said, "Send the slide back and we'll install a shorter front sight." So I sent it in on monday and the following monday had a package at my front door with STI International on the ship label. WHAT...WHAT...Yes...YES! 7 days turnaround! which included ship time! I have to admit I was very skeptical. I knew to expect a shift in windage as I KNOW they must of just slapped on the new front sight and did not check POA/POI. WRONG! The range test showed not only did that correct the POA/POI issue but they must of had a fancy laser to sight it in based on lockup. WOW STI Customer Service...WOW!~ In the STI, get a ranger II. I know it's about $200 off your budget but I'm telling you, you will not be sorry! Or you can go with a Guardian, that thing is really bad ass. Oh, I got a Para Carry 12 on the way from Budsgunshop.com for the novalty of having a LDA double stack. I'm not going to carry it....Well unless my test shows it is reliable. It'll be a range gun for fun mostly. Don't get me started on my Les Baer as I will go on and on about how that thing changed the way I look at semi-custom 1911s. In short it is THE Best 1911 I have ever shot. Take a look at the pics as both the STI and the Baer was fired from the same distances and in the same hold.  My Les Baer Stinger! 
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Wow, lots of good info guys. Thanks.
But what's the deal with Para?? Is it the extractor issue only, or is there more to it? Is the extractor problem a quick reasonable fix with a gunsmith? Also, how do the brands stack against each other? Colt, STI and Les Baer I believe to be the "tier 1" names. But what about Kimber? I feel like I'm getting mixed feelings on them, yet I've always heard how they're the Holy Grail of 1911s. Thanks! |
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Wow, lots of good info guys. Thanks. But what's the deal with Para?? Is it the extractor issue only, or is there more to it? Is the extractor problem a quick reasonable fix with a gunsmith? Also, how do the brands stack against each other? Colt, STI and Les Baer I believe to be the "tier 1" names. But what about Kimber? I feel like I'm getting mixed feelings on them, yet I've always heard how they're the Holy Grail of 1911s. Thanks! The 1911 market doesn't fall as easily into "tiers" as AR15s do. Les Baer is a semi-custom shop that builds beautiful pistols for $2000+ while the makes of Kimber, Colt, and Springfield make everything from $500 to $2500 pistols. Colt makes a great gun, as does Springfield, STI and Kimber. Kimber's can be a little hit and miss, and I generally hold the other makes in higher regard because of their lifetime warranties. |
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Well maybe I'll start looking into Springfield... I already have two XDm's and am very pleased with the brand thus far.
My reasoning for wanting a high capacity 1911, is that I currently carry an Xdm 9mm every day, and with it's 20 rounds, I feel I'm at the same level of preparation as someone who carries a 1911 with 2 additional magazines. Just my logic. But if a single stack 1911 is the more doable route, I guess I should be looking in that direction. |
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Quoted: First off...where did you get that knife...that is awesome. http://www.ultimate-equipment.com/ |
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Here is a very simple break down based on my experience and price point. Manufactures below do not include smaller shops like Fusion and the like. Tier 1 = Les Baer, Ed Brown, Willson Combat Tier 2 = Colt, Springfield, Kimber, STI, Dan Wesson, S&W, Taurus, Para Tier 3 = Rock Island, ATI... Again, Gun ownership is about two things Utility and Collectability. Seems like you are into utility so go with the Taurus nothing wrong with them. It was my gateway 1911. It's still with me and it still shoots great. Put a pair of Hogue fingergroove grips on them and enjoy every shot. Don't believe some in the 1911 crowd and think Taurus is sub-par. Granted they do not have the best finish but again you are a utilitarian of firearms and not collecting. Kimbers are great when you don't have issues. Customer No-service will most likely find some way to weasel out of a warranty claim. When do you know you have a good Kimber is when you've fired about 300-500 rounds of the ammo your going to use in it without any malfunctions. I've got a few and they all run just fine...for now. As for Para's well they really are not 1911s in its pure form, but again a bob tail isn't either. Also double stacks are great but not really for carry. This is my humble opinion. A Para carry 12 in stainless is 34 oz empty. This is a 4" double stack! Add 12+1 rounds of 45 and you are going to walk alittle funny. If you need 20 rounds of anything in any situation within the borders of our great nation Example: in a dark ally or in the middle of the Mall of America you really need to think twice about getting out (Flight) and NOT (Fight) and let the SWAT team take care of it. Again all the above is just my .02 cents. Get what feels good to you. |
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Tier 1 = Les Baer, Ed Brown, Willson Combat Tier 2 = Colt, Springfield, Kimber, STI, Dan Wesson, S&W, Taurus, Para Tier 3 = Rock Island, ATI... I have to disagree with your tiering. I truly think it is a better idea not lumping 1911 manufacturers into tiers as companies like Springfield Armory make the cheap and spartan GI and the full-on semi-custom Professional. It's easier to separate them out as full-custom, semi-custom, production, and shit. Furthermore...Taurus and Para better than Rock Island? Hardly. |
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OK, so maybe you all can give some insight to some SA models.
Loaded Operator TRP Other than one having a match barrel and another not, or a rails for a light, what's the difference? Besides the two features mentioned above, they seem to be on par with each other. 
Also, is a single stack 1911 magazine a single stack 1911 magazine? Or do mnfg. make their pistols compatible with only their products? Thanks again. |
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Yes the Springfields! Great 1911s. Can't go wrong with any of these. Where to start! The main difference is the amount of personal attention they get from the factory floor. I'm looking at the 2010 Springfield catalog and there are 12 Loaded models in their lineup! Twelve! And only 3 models in their TRP lineup. The main difference is again the hand fitting of some major parts. My TRP Stainless has the last 3 #s of the serial number on the Barrel, Ejector, Slide and of course the frame as I recall. They also did a pretty good job with the trigger as well. The loaded models do not have their parts #ed and their triggers are not as good as the TRP. Oh, and the words "Tactical" are engraved on the side of the TRP. Is it worth an additional $200-$400 of hand fitting and the "tactical" Etch based on used or new condition? To me it was. I like the words "Tactical". It reminds me that while I'm holding the TRP my mindset should be "Tactical" and not "Ornory" or "Passive". I guess they would have sold less TRPs if they had "Peace and Love" engraved. Of course that could have acted as a motivational poster..."Elevate" or "Inspire". I digress, Oh and the cosmetics of the whole thing. This is what alot of custom shops start to get you on. Items like checkering, Serations, Trigger guard Under cuts, mag-wells, beveling...What else can they think of? The loaded model has a checkered Main Spring Housing, that is all. The TRP has 20 LPI Meat Grinder Checkering on MSH and Front Strap. It's like wraping your hands on road spikes! But again, this reminds me that I should think "Tactical" when holding the TRP. |
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OK, so maybe you all can give some insight to some SA models. Loaded Operator TRP Other than one having a match barrel and another not, or a rails for a light, what's the difference? Besides the two features mentioned above, they seem to be on par with each other.
Also, is a single stack 1911 magazine a single stack 1911 magazine? Or do mnfg. make their pistols compatible with only their products? Thanks again. The Loaded: Normal Brazilian made and assembled pistol (unless it has the NM prefix) 2-piece barrel (not as desired, but very serviceable) The least amount of part fitting is performed compared to the others Loaded: 
The Operator: There are several "Operators", the two most prevalent are the MC Operator which is a bi-tone (green frame, black slide) all steel pistol; and the Lightweight Operator which has an aluminum frame. I prefer the MC Operator for its all steel frame, they are both NM prefix pistols so they have a higher degree of part fitting that occurs in the USA and both pistols come with Storm Lake barrels. MC Operator: 
LightWeight Operator: 
The TRP: The highest end production pistol Springfield makes (most consider the Professional a semi-custom), has a match barrel and a host of other upgrades and it can be had in either a typical bushing barrel setup or a bull-barrel/railed frame setup. I like the traditional non-railed bushing barrel setup due to the ease of disassembly, weight and history and I prefer the Novak night sights. Non-railed bushing barrel: Railed bull barrel: 
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More good info, thanks.
Now in regards to a steel vs. alloy frame... I've heard steel is desirable for withstanding high round counts. Aluminum saves weight. According to SA's site the Loaded MC Operator weighs in at 42 oz., and the Lightweight Operator at 34 oz. As I said originally, this gun will be shot at the range and CCWed. Which direction should I be leaning, steel or aluminum? |
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How big of a guy are you? I'm 5'11" and love my Ultra CDP II for conceal carry. It's an Alum frame and SS Slide in a 3" Compact 45 by Kimber. Notice I said Conceal carry Again, for me it'll be the Aluminum frame for conceal carry. I could carry a full frame but it's my choice. Aluminum is light and yes my buddies tell me about the kick but it does not bother me. Now, on the other hand, for open carry I'd carry a Full sized 1911 in all steel all day long! |
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More good info, thanks. Now in regards to a steel vs. alloy frame... I've heard steel is desirable for withstanding high round counts. Aluminum saves weight. According to SA's site the Loaded MC Operator weighs in at 42 oz., and the Lightweight Operator at 34 oz. As I said originally, this gun will be shot at the range and CCWed. Which direction should I be leaning, steel or aluminum? It's really for you to decide. I like all steel guns and prefer the weight distribution/balance. If I was worried about weight I'd be looking into a commander in all steel rather than an aluminum pistol, but as the poster above displays, we are all different. |
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I'm just over 6', and depending on the season between 225-245. I currently carry a XDm 4.5 everyday, so carrying a big gun is no problem.
I'll definitely have to go handle some pieces at the fun shop to get a better idea of fit and balance. Again the only experience I've had with a 1911, is my dad's Para P14. |
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Get an all steel 1911.
I have a Kimber CDP 5". It has an aluminum frame. It deos recoil more. It carries better, but is more challenging to shoot. IMO, 1911's should be all steel. They just feel more balenced that way. It just feels more natural to shoot steel 1911's. My CDP deos carry well though. So I put slim grips and trimed the safety levers down some to make it a dedicated thin CCW. I'd recommend Dan Wesson, Ed Brown, Kimber TLE Stainless. All 4-5" with fullsize grips. If you prefer something smaller/lighter, I think the Glock/Kahr is better suited to that range. |
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BTW, here's a couple pictures of what my dad has.
I had mistakenly called it a Para P14 earlier, when it's actually a Para-Ordnance conversion kit, from before they actually sold whole firearms. So I was told. I believe everything but the frame, trigger and sights are from a WW2 M1911A1, made by Ithaca Gun Co. 
Everyone loves porn.
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What's the difference between a bushing barrel and a bull barrel? Is the bushing barrel the original, or traditional design? Thanks! This is a bushing barrel: 
This is a bull barrel: 
The bushing barrel is the original design. The bull barrel should be heavier at the muzzle (aiding felt recoil/muzzle rise) and there is some debate which is more accurate. The bushing does not require any special tools to strip the gun while the bull barrel usually requires some sort of tool. As a general rule (for me), bull barrels should be used on 1911's using a 4" barrel or shorter and bushing barrel setups should be used on pistols that are 4.25" and longer. That said, I also have a rule of no 1911's shorter than 4.25"
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