Posted: 3/10/2010 6:43:14 PM EDT
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This a re-post from 1911 discussion.
OK. I'm all about learning and finding tools. I believe there is no substitute for the correct tool for job. I don't believe in debate for the sake of being right as often I'm wrong. Debate is how I, as you should learn. Debate is a tool. A tool I use to challenge those with challenging positions in search of the truth. That said. 12_gauge is going to love this. The debate for shoot through with a handgun round for me is over. Regardless of caliber, fmj, hollow point, P, or +P. Over, Done, Finished. If ball fmj is what your 1911 feeds well on, that's what you should run. Carry gun or not. Two days ago while rebuilding the top end of a diesel engine I got bored. My carry in the shop is a pistol chambered in 357sig. The cartridges used are 1300+ fps hollow points. For fun I went outside and lined up 9, 1 gallon oil jugs filled with water. Shot two carefully placed rounds center mass. Fully expecting those rounds to penetrate 6 to 9 jugs. Shell Rotella oil jugs are half as wide as milk jugs when placed in the case they are shipped in. I had the nine jugs in three cases. One round passed through one case filled with three jugs and ran out of inertia before passing through 4th jug. Second round passed through fourth jug but ran out of inertia to penetrate fifth jug. Lesson. Common handgun rounds suck for penetration. Period. End of Story. |
| Actually all you really proved is using a handgun to shoot something under water is a waste of time. While water jugs make for very pretty expanded hollow points, it really doesn't prove a thing in regards to real world performance of a particular handgun round. |
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Actually all you really proved is using a handgun to shoot something under water is a waste of time. While water jugs make for very pretty expanded hollow points, it really doesn't prove a thing in regards to real world performance of a particular handgun round. I couldn't agree more. In real world performance those two bullets would have traveled through tissue and bone and in terms of performance done far worse. |
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1911smith the ammo used was is bonded, JHP, etc. Do you think it would have penetrated different had it been different hollowpoints?
I wonder what would happen if the jugs were filled with different material. Leftover meat, fat, and bone from a kill (hog deer) that would be an interesting test. I have never used a hollowpoint on another human but I have seen/used a FMJ through a human and it is pretty devastating to bone and dense tissue both 9mm Para and 45ACP both NATO loads. But handguns are still pea shooters to a rifle. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Actually all you really proved is using a handgun to shoot something under water is a waste of time. While water jugs make for very pretty expanded hollow points, it really doesn't prove a thing in regards to real world performance of a particular handgun round. I couldn't agree more. In real world performance those two bullets would have traveled through tissue and bone and in terms of performance done far worse. First of all, that is backwards. Bullets penetrate deeper in tissue and gel than in water. If you want a deep penetrating HP load, shoot a high sectional density Hornady XTP load - 9mm 147, 45 230, .40 180, etc... But they don't open as reliably as gold dots through clothing. |
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Go buy a pig from your butcher and shoot that then have a bar B Q...  I would be down for that. Also the Pig has a very close anatomy to the Human body. Heart is very similar tissue also they make good ballistic testing platform to see how your ammo would perform. |
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Go buy a pig from your butcher and shoot that then have a bar B Q... I would be down for that. Also the Pig has a very close anatomy to the Human body. Heart is very similar tissue also they make good ballistic testing platform to see how your ammo would perform. IIRC, that's how some original testing was done for ammo back in the late 1800's and early 1900's. They'd shoot hanging sides of beef and cadavers with different calibers and loads to determine which ones made the most impact. Still kinda makes sense to me. ETA Just found this link, pretty interesting. http://www.sightm1911.com/lib/history/background.htm#test |
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Yes and I have read many of those reports including the Chicago Stockyard reports. One anecdotal story before posting pictures. Last month I was at a slaughter house delivering a load of what we in the business call, " kill cows." These are old animals that are literally on their last leg. I won't load them if I think they'll have trouble makng the ride but on occasion one will go on and simply give up and not make the walk off the trailer. We use no source of motivation to move the animal AT ALL. Either it walks off or it's shot behind the ear, in head at point blank range with a .22lr cartridge adminstered by something that looks like a thick metal cylinder. Anyway two shots to the head, animal is blinded and paralized but otherwise acts normal. Then an incision is made into the neck of the animal and an aorta cut. Bottom of my trailer quickly fills deep with blood. Animal bleeds out within two minutes. I tell that story for you guys who debate " shot placement." Animal is then wrapped with a chain and dragged off trailer for disposal. Human consumption is out of question.
As for the suggestion of shooting up a hog, yea right. Water is denser than tissue. I know this, but it is not denser than bone. Regardless, I have nothing to prove to any of the self proclaimed ballsiticians. I'm simply sharing some results I have found surprising in terms of a handgun round and potential for shoot through. It was a cold overcast day. Too cold for this project. Three cases stacked end to end. Three jugs in each case filled with water, placed into position with four spares to side. 
Weapons and ammunition 
Width of jugs. 
Not done yet. One shot 9mm, traveled through all three cases going through 9 full jugs. 115 grain 9mm fmj. This was not the result expected and contradicts my findings, BUT makes my original suspicion of 9mm confirmed. 9mm has potential for shoot through. Hold that thought......... 
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Quoted: One shot 9mm, traveled through all three cases going through 9 full jugs. 115 grain 9mm fmj. This was not the result expected and contradicts my findings, BUT makes my original suspicion of 9mm confirmed. 9mm has potential for shoot through. Hold that thought......... It is fun to shoot stuff, but you BADLY need to go read the ammo FAQ in the Handgun Ammunition Forum. Top of the page. |
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Alright, now I've completely blown the case previously stated. Handgun rounds suck for penetration. So confused and realizing I've just shot up my chance for a redo. I get out the 45acp, realizing I don't have any factory loaded ball ammo. Lots of reloaded ball that's been loaded light so it shouldn't be used to my way of thinking for this test. I do have Winchester 230 grain self defense hp. Good enough, thinks I.
Using the 4 back-up jugs cause that's all's left. I expect to see shoot through based on 9mm fmj experience. 
Round penetrates 3 jugs but fails to exit 3rd. 
Next month I will come up with some more oil jugs, will start with 45acp fmj and follow up with 9mm fmj. Findings were a bit contradictory. You'll have to excuse me for not going to the Ammo FAQ. Being from the " Sho Me" I kind of tend to do things with an eyeball approach. |
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Yes and I have read many of those reports including the Chicago Stockyard reports. One anecdotal story before posting pictures. Last month I was at a slaughter house delivering a load of what we in the business call, " kill cows." These are old animals that are literally on their last leg. I won't load them if I think they'll have trouble makng the ride but on occasion one will go on and simply give up and not make the walk off the trailer. We use no source of motivation to move the animal AT ALL. Either it walks off or it's shot behind the ear, in head at point blank range with a .22lr cartridge adminstered by something that looks like a thick metal cylinder. Anyway two shots to the head, animal is blinded and paralized but otherwise acts normal. Then an incision is made into the neck of the animal and an aorta cut. Bottom of my trailer quickly fills deep with blood. Animal bleeds out within two minutes. I tell that story for you guys who debate " shot placement." Animal is then wrapped with a chain and dragged off trailer for disposal. Human consumption is out of question. As for the suggestion of shooting up a hog, yea right. Water is denser than tissue. I know this, but it is not denser than bone. Regardless, I have nothing to prove to any of the self proclaimed ballsiticians. I'm simply sharing some results I have found surprising in terms of a handgun round and potential for shoot through. It was a cold overcast day. Too cold for this project. Three cases stacked end to end. Three jugs in each case filled with water, placed into position with four spares to side. http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/ballistics002.jpg Weapons and ammunition http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/ballistics001.jpg Width of jugs. http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/ballistics003.jpg Not done yet. One shot 9mm, traveled through all three cases going through 9 full jugs. 115 grain 9mm fmj. This was not the result expected and contradicts my findings, BUT makes my original suspicion of 9mm confirmed. 9mm has potential for shoot through. Hold that thought......... http://s660.photobucket.com/albums/uu324/daclark1911/ballistics004.jpg For cryin' out loud! Do you know how idiotic that sounds. I swear, you're the only person I know of that doesn't believe in shot placement. |
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Ok, handgun rounds suck at penetration. So do rifle rounds. Of course, my standard for penetration power is a 120mm APSFDS round from an M1A2 Abrams.
What kind of penetration performance were you expecting from a handgun? Are you needing to shoot through brick walls or something? I know we all want a pistol that is laser-accurate, fires a 1000 grain round at 3000 fps with a 250 round magazine capacity in an 8 ounce pistol that fits in the palm of my hand and recoils like a .22 short. There is no such thing as a perfect handgun. The bigger the bullet, and the faster you want it to go the more powder you need, and the larger the cartridge is. The more powerful the round, the more robust your pistol needs to be to not blow up. The more material you need, the bigger the pistol. We have different pistol designs because different designers put emphasis on different priorities: power, concealability, accuracy, reliability, comfort, carry weight. If you want the power and penetration the OP seems to want, you puch beyond what is capable of a firearm that can still be catagorized as a pistol, or makes a pistol too large to fit into what is a tradtional role for a pistol; being a sidearm. Next complaint is: Why do I get wet every time I go swimming? Water sucks. They need to invent water that doesn't get me wet. |
